World Families Forums - R1b in the Afghan Hindu Kush

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 22, 2014, 12:53:10 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  R1b in the Afghan Hindu Kush
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: R1b in the Afghan Hindu Kush  (Read 887 times)
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« on: October 27, 2013, 09:45:36 AM »

Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge

Scroll down and look at Table S5 and Figure S7.

I have not read the whole report yet, but there's a fair amount of R1b in it, especially R1b-M343 and R1b-M73.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 09:49:27 AM by rms2 » Logged

Jdean
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 678


« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2013, 01:44:10 PM »

Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge

Scroll down and look at Table S5 and Figure S7.

I have not read the whole report yet, but there's a fair amount of R1b in it, especially R1b-M343 and R1b-M73.

It looks like they've predictated the hapolgroups from the STRs so some of them may be a bit off, however beggars can't be choosers and 1177 Y haplotypes from that neck of the woods is not to sneezed at !!!

I think there's a problem with Y-GATA-H4 in the Kyrgyz haplotypes though but I'm not sure how to correct for it ?
Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 08:00:54 PM »

I havent had time to really chew this paper over yet and being unfamiliar with some of the places and peoples makes it hard to read.  However, I did notice it seemed to confirm the impression that M73 in more southerly latitudes was brought by Turks who must have absorbed it on the eastern steppes.
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 08:18:43 PM »

I'm not sure what to make of it either, other than it kind of reinforces my impression that R1b probably arose in Central Asia somewhere.
Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2013, 07:36:51 AM »

I'm not sure what to make of it either, other than it kind of reinforces my impression that R1b probably arose in Central Asia somewhere.

I have read the paper and my impression is that they have used above all the autosome for their interesting analyses, refusing to use the Y for the unresolved controversy about the Mutation Rate and the calculation of the MRCA. By the autosome it is clear that Hindu Kush and also Central Asia is a "confluence of gene flows rather than a source of distinctly autochthonous populations that have arisen in situ" like they resume in the abstract.
It is clear that the only hg. come from Central Asia is hg. R1a1a-M198 with the Indo-Iranian expansion, whereas J2a1-Page55 is due to the Neolithic demic diffusion from the Fertile Crescent.
I'd say what they don't say: that R1b was the Western European component demonstrated at autosomal level by AC4.
I'll study carefully the Y haplotypes, but I want to remember to rms2 that is becoming more and more evident that the R1b1* found in Asia don't belong to the ancestor of our subclades: see Raza and now also Joshi, who are L388/L389-, as I have said many times and from so long on the fora and also in private letters.
If it will be demonstrated that the ancestor is in R1b1/cluster A1, where I think having demonstrated the Italian origin (besides English Humphrey) with DeMao, but also Toniolo and others, who have the highest variance, whereas the Jewish cluster is numerous  but belong to an unique haplotype (probably introgressed). If also Mangino will be demonstrated R1b1 and not R-M269 like FTDNA says, the victory could be complete.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2013, 07:53:32 AM »

I would not expect these R1b folks from the Hindu Kush to belong to clades that are ancestral to our own. After all, they are, like us, modern men. But Asia seems to be where the Super K group originated, and Central Asia has R1b of various kinds, R1a, Q, etc., all in fairly close proximity. You don't really see that anywhere in Europe.

It seems a tremendous stretch to me to imagine an Italian origin for R1b followed by a trek out to Central Asia. An Italian origin for P312 or one of its subclades, like U152, I could imagine, but not R1b. I just don't think it makes sense, and I have never found anecdotes about this or that individual's haplotype or SNP results compelling. They don't amount to population studies.

Perhaps very ancient y-dna will tell the tale someday.
Logged

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2013, 07:55:59 PM »

I wish this paper had some frequency maps. Its just very tiring to looking through tables of places and people you do not know without having to resort to tabulating it, getting maps etc etc. 
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2013, 09:06:37 PM »

I wish this paper had some frequency maps. Its just very tiring to looking through tables of places and people you do not know without having to resort to tabulating it, getting maps etc etc. 

I agree.
Logged

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2013, 09:09:16 PM »

deleted
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 08:35:24 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2013, 08:34:47 AM »

Having looked closer, I have removed my post on this. Now I think its even more striking


L23

L23 is highest in Iran - especially the Gillan in NW Caspian (Iranian speakers) and east Azeris of NW Iran (Turkified Iranian speakers), Kordistan of NW Iran (Iranian speakers) and Mazanderan (Caspian shore Iranians).

In general its very very northern in Iran

It is also high in Afghanistan among Tajiks (Persian speakers) of Takhar (NE border of Afghanistan) and Balkh (NE border of Afghanistan) Uzbeks of Jawjan on northern border (Turkic speakers)

In general its a northern border thing in Afghanistam

In Kyrgzstan its high among NW kyrgzs (Turkic speakers)

In Pakistan its high among Balochi (NW Iranian speakers) and Pathans (Iranian speakers).


M73

pakistan-very high among Hazaras (Persians)-otherwise unknown

Iran-only Gillan (north Iranians)

Afghanistan-only significant among Tajiks of Jawzjan (Persians) on the northern border.


In general L23 and M73 seem to be only significant on the northern border of Afghanistan, the northernmost parts of Iran and among Persians/Iranians in Pakistan.

There is a the very strong correlation with Persian/Iranian and a lesser one with Turkic
Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2013, 07:49:24 AM »

If you compare the results with a map of central Asia like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...itical_Map.jpg

there seems to be a pattern for L23 (or L23 and M73 combined). Its distributed along a line that goes roughly along the Caspian end of Iran then along the northern boundary of Afghanistan to west Pakistan and then to , almost forming a band that runs from east to west. This study doesnt include the countries to the north so it doest tell us anything about the cline in that direction. However, it does show us the southern boundary of L23 and M73 as anything above near-absence runs along the north Iran-north Afghanistan line.

That shows to me that the southern boundary of both L23 and M73 in central Asia essentially was defined by the mountain ranges that form the borders of the north of both Iran and Afghanistan, running as far as NW Kyrgyzstan. That seems like a mountain barrier fringe/refuge for groups from the north. It could alternatively relate to preference for these kind of uplands which do contrast with the deserts to the north in north central Asia and agricultural areas to the south. Certainly a peripheral location to agriculture is indicated by R1b's late take off. On the other hand this R1b may not be ancient in the central European mountain fringe if the correlation with Iranian and to a lesser extent Turkic speakers is significant and perhaps it was only brought to this mountain fringes of central Asia with those invaders from further north.
Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.095 seconds with 18 queries.