World Families Forums - What has to do the Irish O'Donnell with the Jewish cluster R-M269/L150+?

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Author Topic: What has to do the Irish O'Donnell with the Jewish cluster R-M269/L150+?  (Read 840 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: August 03, 2013, 09:46:26 PM »

What has to do the Irish O'Donnell with the Jewish cluster R-M269/L150+?

CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L566+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF7558+, PF7562+, PF7563+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+  282121    O'Donnell         R1b1a2a1    R-L150

4 R1b M269 GD Report finds no matches in FTDNA database
282121    O'Donnell    Ireland    R1b1a2a1    
12    24    14    10    11-16    11    12    13    13    13    29    19    9-9    11    12    25    14    19    31    15-15-16-16    9    11    19-21    15    16    19    17    36-37    12    12    11    9    15-16    8    11    10    8    12    10    12    23-23    15    10    12    12    14    8    13    23    20    12    12    11    13    11    11    12    11

It seems that this cluster is scattered along the whole Europe and with great variance. And why R1b1a2a1? It is a R1b1a2/M269/L150+ with PF7558/PF7562/PF7563.                                                                                                                                                                                                                          
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 09:51:17 PM »

Of course I didn't remember to have been the cause of this result so many I write.This is my answer to a member of the forum who asked me about this haplotype:



I have put O’Donnell’s data on ySearch (NTNAE). He matches closely KUSP2 (apart DYS19=14-14, but we should see: also Seymour is 14-14 with some doubt). KUSP2 is tested R1b1a2, i.e. R-M269, but we don’t know if he has been tested for subclades, but this haplotype with DYS426=11 could just be a R-M269*, and this would be very interesting.


Contact person: David O'Donnell


Most distant known paternal ancestor on the direct male line
First Name: Maximilian
Last Name: O'Donnell
Year Born: About 1879
Year Died: 1931

You may contact O’Donnell’s administrator and recommend a Geno 2.0 test, which could be very interesting. Of course he isn’t R-U106, having DYS492=12.
If he doesn’t want to spend, he could test L23: if he is R-M269*, he should be negative.

Gioiello
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 02:22:49 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Dubhthach
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 05:28:06 PM »

Maximilian isn't the most Irish of first names that for sure! Of course members of the O'Donnell family like all Irish are widely travelled. There was even some made counts of the Austro-Hungarian empire!

-Paul
(DF41+)
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 10:00:39 PM »

Maximilian isn't the most Irish of first names that for sure! Of course members of the O'Donnell family like all Irish are widely travelled. There was even some made counts of the Austro-Hungarian empire!

-Paul
(DF41+)

We don't know where Maximilian's Y came from, certainly it belongs to this cluster of R-M269/L150+ with the three Sardinian SNPs, but it is very different from all the other haplotypes known and certainly doesn't derive from the Jewish one which is only one  haplotype with a very low variance and presupposes a very recent introgression. For what we know it could be in Ireland from very ancient times and to be more Irish in origin of the same R-L21.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

seferhabahir
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 01:28:50 PM »

What has to do the Irish O'Donnell with the Jewish cluster R-M269/L150+?

...

It seems that this cluster is scattered along the whole Europe and with great variance. And why R1b1a2a1? It is a R1b1a2/M269/L150+ with PF7558/PF7562/PF7563.   

I agree that this kit does not have much to do with the Jewish cluster R-M269/L150+ (beyond sharing the Sardinian SNPs), but this person should probably join the ht35 project so we can add him to the PF7558/PF7562/PF7563 group.

Certainly it is another L23- L150+ example. By coincidence, I have been talking to the owner of kit 126775 (Bardiga) this week about how to get ISOGG to fix their tree. One way is to test this kit (apparently at least 3000 years removed from the Jewish Cluster) with Sanger SNP testing for L23, L49, and L150, based on opinions I've received from people who know the ISOGG process.

I was thinking of testing my cousin's 37 marker kit which would also satisfy the ISOGG diversity requirement (GD 7 at 37 markers), but testing a 67 marker kit even further removed (GD 27 at 67 markers) maybe makes more sense. Apparently, Sanger testing is preferred (or required) over the Geno 2.0 chip results.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 01:33:39 PM by seferhabahir » Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 03:36:00 PM »

I agree that this kit does not have much to do with the Jewish cluster R-M269/L150+ (beyond sharing the Sardinian SNPs), but this person should probably join the ht35 project so we can add him to the PF7558/PF7562/PF7563 group.

Certainly it is another L23- L150+ example. By coincidence, I have been talking to the owner of kit 126775 (Bardiga) this week about how to get ISOGG to fix their tree. One way is to test this kit (apparently at least 3000 years removed from the Jewish Cluster) with Sanger SNP testing for L23, L49, and L150, based on opinions I've received from people who know the ISOGG process.

I was thinking of testing my cousin's 37 marker kit which would also satisfy the ISOGG diversity requirement (GD 7 at 37 markers), but testing a 67 marker kit even further removed (GD 27 at 67 markers) maybe makes more sense. Apparently, Sanger testing is preferred (or required) over the Geno 2.0 chip results.

Seferhabahir, of course everything will be done about O'Donnell's Y will be welcome, but I think that his results (and the others') are reliable as to L23-, L49- and L150+. L150 has been tested on many Geno 2.0 customers and, apart the back mutation of the L23+ (from L150+ to L150-) and the mutation of the R-M269* (from L150- to L150+), has been demonstrated very stable.
The problem is that there aren't, for what I know, R-M269*/L150-, i.e. all the others, tested for Geno 2.0. I expect that they haven't these three "Sardinian " SNPs, but perhaps they have others. With these SNPs (PF7558/PF7562/PF7563) the reliability of L150 isn't decisive more, even though I think that it is.
Next tests will say more. So far it seems that this R-M269 is European and very ancient, but probably many different R-M269 will come out in the future from what is so far a paragroup. I am curious to see the result of some Italian R-M269 with YCAII=17-23 and that of my acquired cousin Federighi from Tuscany with DYS462=12 and that of Filandro and many others.
Of course for my theory, if we don't consider ancient in Middle East these Jewish cluster (and we did know that R-M269 wasn't in Middle East, at least on Palestinian coast, but there is the possibility that it is part of the Jewish pool from before the diaspora: Sea Peoples, Peleset etc.), the European R-M269 become more important like the ancestors of L23.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 03:40:21 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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