World Families Forums - M269* in Sardinia - Brother Clade to L23?

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Author Topic: M269* in Sardinia - Brother Clade to L23?  (Read 582 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: August 07, 2013, 12:47:12 PM »

Thanks to Richard Rocca we have these data from Francalacci et al. 2013:

   "Looking over the Francalacci data on Sardinia, it looks like there are ten M269(xL23). All ten have the following either observed or inferred:

    23047845 G>A (10 of 10)
    15256141 G>A
    21110969 A>G
    14579448 G>T
    17903480 C>T
    22871037 T>C
    21631153 C>A
    22593933 G>A
    19369222 A>T

    So this means that all M269* Sardinians in the dataset form a single brother clade to L23 and not a diverse mix of M269 types. All six L23(xL11) samples are Z2103/Z2105+ and all three L51(xL11) samples are all Z2115+".

What does it mean? We should know  how these SNPs are in these single R-M269*. Probably they form a tree of Sardinian R-M269*, which has in common 23047846 G to A and many subclades of it.
Does it forms a "brother clade" of L23*? Of course every R-M269* has had meanwhile some mutations, and this is the Sardinian M269, probably in the island from thousands of years. We did expect to find those PF SNPs like PF7558, PF7562 and PF7563. Where have these come out if not in a R-M269 sample?
That the L23 are Z2103/Z2105 is important, and probably with that SNP intermediate between Z2103/Z2105 and Z2110 found by the same Richard Rocca. Also this an ancient clade of R-L23, no more L23* but with some mutations, but anyway ancestral to all the Eastern and Asian L23 which are L277, L584, Z2110 etc.
It seems to me that these samples strengthen the theory of an origin of these subclades in the Italian Refugium. And we are speaking only of Sardinia, which probably received these haplotypes many thousands of years ago from the Italian continent.
Hope that next Mangino, Federighi, Marchesi and many others (myself included) may be examined at this level.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 12:57:02 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 01:15:03 PM »

Probably these are the SNPs of the X-degenerated region of Y taken in exam for dating the ancientness of the haplogroups, but certainly there are other Sardinian Snps in other regions of Y.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 01:36:54 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2013, 01:51:52 AM »

It is very likely that these Sardinian M-269 haplotypes are very similar to that of Lo Piccolo
220813    Lo Piccolo    Italy    R1b1a2    
12    26    14    11    11-14    11    12    12    13    13    29    17    9-10    11    11    25    15    19    30    13-15-16-16    10    11    19-23    15    16    17    17    36-37    12    13    11    9    15-16    8    10    10    8    11    10    12    23-23    16    10    12    12    15    8    12    22    20    13    12    11    13    11    11    12    12                                                                                                        
as I demonstrated in the past by comparing Lo Piccolo and YHRD data, above all for the rare DYS438=13. We may also see that, apart DYS438, the other values are very close to the subclades of R-M269, beginning from R-L23.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2013, 03:10:16 AM »

If we understand rightly the Francalacci 's data about the 1200 Sardinians tested we'd say that

1) 981-989, cluster alfa of R1b1a2, are 9 out of 10 R-M269
2) 990 is another R1b1a2/M269 with different haplotype, probably survived from a previous higher differentiation, but by their SNPs they belong all to the same descent
3) 991-996 are the 6 R-L23/Z2103/Z2105
4) 997-999 are the 3 R-L51/Z2115
5) 1000-1165 are subclades of R-L11
6) 75 Z192
23 U152*
13 Z56
10 L2
7 Z36
Total 128
7) Only 38 are R1b1a2-subclades (xU152)
8) 1166-1194 are R1b1c (we presuppose R-M18, but why Francalacci says R1b1c (xV35))?
They belong from 1177 to 1194 to the haplotype gamma, then there is another (or more) haplotype of R1b1c from 1166 to 1176.

There is enough, I think, for saying that these data are very important.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 02:52:05 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2013, 11:03:45 AM »



Then everything is clear. These SNPs aren't in the X-degenerated region sequenced.
It will be interesting to construct a tree of these Sardinian R-M269* and to see how deep are these SNPs, above all that possessed by all the ten, and to have other R-M269 to compare with them and also to see at which level these three SNPs are.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 01:07:44 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2013, 11:15:13 AM »

Of course if my hypothesis is right, that some of these Sardinian R-M269 are close to Lo Piccolo, from the Elymian zone of Sicily, and Lo Piccolo by 23andMe is L150-, in these 10 Sardinian R-M269 we have the ancestral L150- and the mutated L150+ and we could have the proof as to this haplogroup was born and evolved in the Italian Refugium.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2013, 11:44:02 AM »

Unfortunately we have no proof that L150+ is parallel to L23+. It seems that all the R-M269 on 23andMe are L150+.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


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