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Author Topic: R-L11 in Italy  (Read 811 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: June 02, 2013, 02:30:32 AM »

467   L'Aquila   13   25   14   12   11   14   12   14   12   12   13   28   17   15   20   12   15   13   24   R1b1b2a1-P311 (xU106,P312)   

I have always considered one point of weakness of my theory of the Italian Refugium the scarcity in Italy of R-L11. Only one in the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” (D’Ambrosia). It is true that Italy is under tested as to other countries, but also in this last paper of Boattini et al. only 1 R-L11 out of 884 persons tested. It’s all right with R1b1, R-V88+, R-M18, R-M73, R-M335, R-M269 (and probably Mangino the intermediate between R1b1 and R-M269), R-L23, R-L51, R-P312, R-U152, but R-L11 seems not at the same height of the others. It is true that one of the highest percentage in Europe of this haplogroup is on the North-East border of Italy, where the migration Northward from the Italian Refugium may have happened, but how to explain the scarcity Southward?

One of the points of disagreement with the Boattini’s paper has been for me their refusal to consider the outliers in the calculation of the ancientness of a haplogroup. If the most part of lines go extinct, if in a place, like in a village, only a few lines survive, and in long times only one, the outliers (if they hadn’t multistep mutations, but it is unlikely that this happened in many markers) are only some lines survived and for this merit to be considered at the same level of the others.

Now the few Italian R-L11 (and some could be amongst the Italians tested by SMGF I put on ySearch, but about them there isn’t the certitude of the SNP test) are just outliers amongst the R-L11 known.
This sample from Boattini’s:
DYS390=25
DYS391=12
DYS388=14
DYS389I=12
DYS448=20
H4=12
DYS438=13
DYS635=24

Also D’Ambrosia is an outlier and it would be also Filippozzi (from SMGF, ySearch 5VQTZ) if he were tested R-L11 as I think probably he is.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 04:29:04 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2013, 03:00:25 AM »

These haplotypes on YHRD could be meaningful:
4   14   12   28   25   12   13   13   11,14   12   12   15   19   15   17   24   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   12   28   25   12   13   13   11,14   12   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   12   28   25   12   13   13   11,14   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   12   28   25   12   13   13   11,14   12   12   15   19   15   18   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   12   28   25   12   13   13   11,14   12   12   15   19   16   17   24   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

3 of 23   Providencia Island, Colombia [Afro-Caribbean]   African - Afro-Caribbean   Latin America
1 of 216   Alicante, Spain [Spanish]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 342   Bogotá, Colombia [Mestizo]   Admixed   Latin America
1 of 180   Granada, Spain [Spanish]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 98   Rimini, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 55   Isla de San Andrés, Colombia [Afro-Caribbean, Mestizo]   Admixed   Latin America

Above all for their DYS635=24. It seems a question between Italy and Iberia.

This haplotype
1   14   12   28   25   12   13   13   11,14   12   12   15   19   15   18   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
comes from Alicante, just where we found the Spanish R-L51 and close to it is this:
1   14   13   29   25   12   13   13   11,14   12   12   15   19   15   18   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1 of 1475   United States [European American]   Eurasian - European   North America
but it could be any subclade.
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Maliclavelli


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Adrian Ballard
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 11:10:50 AM »

I may be of north Italian decent but not yet proved (from the Society of Bellardi - Lucca Merchants) there is also an Iocco who has Tested P310
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 12:09:18 PM »

I thank you for your information and I'd be glad to look at your STRs values if you have been tested. It would be very important for me to find some R-L11 (or P310) in Tuscany which is my region and where I think probably was the refugium of hg. R1b1 and subclades. I have tested a few persons of my zone and we are all of this haplogroup:
1) R-M269
3) R-L23 (one is my son, then 2)
1) R-U152
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Maliclavelli


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Adrian Ballard
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2013, 12:59:41 PM »

4XST7 - Ballard - P-310 -     R1b1a2a1a1 - 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16 16 16 17 10 11 19 23 16 15 18 15 36 37 12 12
RD34X -   Iocco - P-310 -     R1b1a2a1a1 - 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 16 17 17 17 10 11 19 23 17 15 18 16 36 37 12 12
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Ancestry - John Ballard b. abt 1480 Herefordshire, England, Uk.
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2013, 02:57:48 PM »

Many thanks. I'll study your haplotype. At a first glance it seems that there is a recent common ancestor between you.
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Maliclavelli


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Adrian Ballard
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 10:04:51 AM »

That would be interesting - Today there as been a new P-310 with my surname - it would be good to date the 2 Ballard's against each other - Can you do that ????


B2669 R1b1a2a1a1   13   23   15   10   11-14   12   12   12   13   13   29   16   9-10   11   11   25   15   18   29   14-15-15-18   11   10   19-23   16   15   20   18   34-39   12   12   
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R1b1a2a1a1*   R1b-L11*    P310+ U106- P312-
Ancestry - John Ballard b. abt 1480 Herefordshire, England, Uk.
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 12:51:16 PM »

That would be interesting - Today there as been a new P-310 with my surname - it would be good to date the 2 Ballard's against each other - Can you do that ????


B2669 R1b1a2a1a1   13   23   15   10   11-14   12   12   12   13   13   29   16   9-10   11   11   25   15   18   29   14-15-15-18   11   10   19-23   16   15   20   18   34-39   12   12   

B2669/4XST7
DYS390 23/24
DYS19 15/14
DYS439 12/11
DYS458 16/17
DYS448 18/19
DYS449/29/30
DYS464a 14/16
DYS464b 15/16
DYS464c 15/16
DYS464d 18/17
DYS460 11/10
H4 10/11
DYS576 15/18
DYS570 18/15
CDYa 34/36
CDYb 39/37

You have 23 mutations out of 37 markers. Also with the usual calculation

454x23/74=141 generations at 25 years for G= 3527 to the Most Recent Common Ancestor, but probably the mutations are much more, because many are hidden. Then no relation within the origin of surnames. If this Ballard is he too R-L11, the thing is strange and interesting. You of course have no recent relatedness, but it could be that your ancestors belonged to a clan more than a family and there could be the origin of the same surname. Certainly you are more linked to Iocco rather than to this Ballard. Iocco could put you to an Italian origin, but the rarity of R-L11 in Italy could also bring you to some clan arrived in Italy from elsewhere. Lucca was a town dominated by Lombards.
The thing should be deepen.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 12:56:34 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 02:25:14 PM »

That makes sense - The Society of Bellardi were Lombard Merchants as were the Ricardi & Friscobaldi all Trading out of Luka lending money to the Kings of Europe - The Bellardi lending to the Plantagenet's They Settled in England and by 1300 were citizens of London - And became known as John Ballard, Caluchios Ballard, & Giovanni Ballard (Vann) Brothers and others none Ballard There father had Property and lands in the hills of Luca that was sold I can find no other refs to the name in this area but that of Becipari Bellardi b. late 1100's - If I could find a place name Bellardi  in the area that would help explain were the name came from.

I have in Totnes, Devona  Roger Ballard witnessing a a claim to land by Roger Nonant at Totnes Priory in 1137 and later a Richard De Ballard in the early 1200s witnessing many documents and Described as "Lord" presumably of Totnes.

I have tried to track down the name Iocco in medieval documents but have had no luck. Ciocco's yes but no Ioccos.


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R1b1a2a1a1*   R1b-L11*    P310+ U106- P312-
Ancestry - John Ballard b. abt 1480 Herefordshire, England, Uk.
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 02:42:29 PM »

I'll investigate your case, but don't forget that the name "Lombard" (see Lombard Street at London) did mean "Italians", thus it isn't said that "Lombard" was linked with "Lombards" rather than other Italians. But of course a "Lombard" origin for these families shouldn't be excluded.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 03:38:04 PM »

Will look forward to any feedback
Adrian
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2013, 02:08:44 PM »

Can you translate this  to English ???

Datazione (rilevata): 5 Gennaio 1227
Carattere: privato
Traditio: originale
Topica: Lucca, nella casa del fu Orlando medico
Persone:
rogante: Iacopo di Borgognone giudice e notaio del'Impero Romano (signum: 1)
testimone: Inoltre Bencipari moglie di Belladie e figlia del quondam Seretto e Maria moglie di detto Deodato e figlia quondam Alamanno ratificano la vendita col consenso etc. renunziando etc.
testimone: Borgognone quondam Orlando medico e Lamberto Parpallioni
testimone: e Pagano quondam Lamberto
Regesto:
Iacobo Bogognoni Giudice e notaio del'Impero Romano Bellarde e Deodato germano quondam Gannino di "Saldatico" della pieve di "Subgruminio" vendono a Guido quondam Orlando Diversi come tutore delle figlie del quondam Lamberto Deodati una vigna con ulivi e fichi in "Subgrominio" nel L°. D°. "Salvatico" dove si chiama a "Colle", col patto di ritenerla in locazione perpetua per l'annua rendita in Gennaio di 6 libbre d'olio buono, puro e netto.
Dichiarano di aver ricevuto per prezzo di detta vendita £. 13. 10 Fatto in Lucca nella casa del quondam Orlando Medico.
Inoltre Bencipari moglie di Bellardi figlia del quondam Seretto e Maria moglie di detto Deodato quondam Alamanno ratificano la venmdita col consenso etc renunziando etc testimoni. Borgognone quondam Orlando medico e Lamberto Parpallioni, e Pagano quondam Lamberto.

AND

Datazione (rilevata): 15 Maggio 1299
Carattere: privato
Traditio: originale
Topica: Lucca, presso la chiesa dei frati minori, nella casa di Simone Conciati notaio
Persone:
rogante: Filippo Risichi notaio (signum: 1)
testimone: cittadini lucchesi ed altri,
Regesto:
Filippo Risichi notaio.
Giovanni detto Vanne e Coluccio germani figli di Simo o Simone Bellardi mecanti lucchesi, avendo venduto a Bartolomeo figlio quondam Bonifatii Conlonis, due pezzi di terra vineata, con casa, palmenti, tini, botti etc. esistenti nel teritorio o monte che si chiama Monte S. Quirico, presso la città di Lucca per il prezzo di £. 800 di buoni denari lucchesi piccoli con atto celebrato nella terra di Parigi e rogato per mano di Elizeo bareglie notaio di Lucca, perciò detto Simone cerziorato di detta vendita confermò ed approvòil detto atto, e a maggior cautela rinnovò il detto atto di vendita con Vanne figlio "Domini Percivallis Labri", come procuratore del d. Bartolomeo, per il prezzo di £.
800 già percetto dai detti suoi figliuoli, consegnando al medesimo talune carte pubbliche riguardanti le dette terre.
Inoltre Donna Mattea moglie del detto Simo o Simone e figlia "olim Rodelossi Guasconis de Opithonibus", ratifica detta vendita.
"Acta" fuori la città di Lucca presso la Chiesa dei frati minori nella casa del detto Simone Conciati notaio, e Dino quondam Nicolai Corbolani cittadini lucchesi ed altri, testimone
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 02:15:37 PM by ballardgen » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1*   R1b-L11*    P310+ U106- P312-
Ancestry - John Ballard b. abt 1480 Herefordshire, England, Uk.
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 03:04:30 PM »

This act is interesting because we have the family of this merchants from Lucca:

Giovanni said Vanne and Coluccio are the sons of Simo/Simone Bellardi. Their mother is Donna Mattea daughter of Rodelosso Guascone degli Opizzi. They seem all of noble descent. They are the same we find in the document of London: Calendar of Patent Rolls: year 1311

Vanne Bellardi
John Vanne (perhaps his son)
Colluchius Bellardi
“and their fellows of the society of the Bellardi of Lucca”.

But we should demonstrate that there is a link between you and this family.
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Maliclavelli


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Adrian Ballard
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 03:25:58 PM »

I have Patent and close rolls for the Bellard & Ballard and 20 years of collecting Ballard refs - I have found the children of these families and now working on it - but need the transcription -  I think you may have made a mistake with that I think there are 2 brothers the sons of Simon - Giovanni de Vanne (aka Ghallesis OT Galleys) and Coluccio and from them the rest are children - I already had these people and now i have the wills from Hustings and working on the results will take a little while but will keep you updated if you can help when needed for Ital/eng translations

I think I have found - the Maker & Sinclair (P310) links with this Italian family also will let you know.

Thanks for your help
Adrian
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Ancestry - John Ballard b. abt 1480 Herefordshire, England, Uk.
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 04:52:56 PM »

From the Italian document we have:

Giovanni detto Vanne e Coluccio germani figli di Simo o Simone Bellardi me[r]canti lucchesi

Giovanni said Vanne and Coluccio brothers sons of Simo or Simone Bellardi merchants from Lucca

Thus the brothers are two. In the English document we have:

Vanne Bellardi and Colluchius [Coluccio] Bellardi and a new John Vanne, who could be a Giovanni di Vanne. If he were the same “Giovanni detto Vanne” written in English he would be named twice. It is possible, but this would be a mistake. “Gerard de Chiartr’” should be a French, we would say now «Gerard de Chartres». There was a link between the “Lucchesi” and French. Also the mother (Mattea of Rodelosso Guascone degli Opizzi) seems to have a link with France in that name “Guascone”. Rodelosso is in Italian: “he gnaws the bone”.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 04:54:25 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Adrian Ballard
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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2013, 05:11:55 PM »

OK -
can you join my page and we can take this further
https://www.facebook.com/groups/475974862471011/
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Ancestry - John Ballard b. abt 1480 Herefordshire, England, Uk.
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