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Author Topic: About the origin of the R1b1 subclades again  (Read 1778 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: May 20, 2013, 11:36:41 PM »

Sam Vass writes on Rootsweb:
“The SNPs below were in the Genographic 2.0 results for BOTH cluster A and C2, C3 individuals for the xP297 project. They are not shown in a small sample of M269 positive individuals. Does anyone know of their origin and/or significance? Does anyone know of other individuals who test positive for these SNPs? What group and what project?? Cluster A is probably a precursor split to P297 as it contains both L388+ and L389+.

V186+
V189+
V205+
V52+
YSC0000067+
YSC0000075+
YSC0000176+
YSC0000179+
YSC0000182+
YSC0000186+
YSC0000201+
YSC0000205+
YSC0000207+
YSC0000224+
YSC0000227+
YSC0000230+
YSC0000232+
YSC0000233+
YSC0000251+
YSC0000270+
YSC0000279+
YSC0000288+

Sam Vass, R1b-V88/PF6279”

That that cluster A of R1b1 FTDNA Project, with its YCAII=18-23, is the ancestor of R-L297 and then of all the subclades I have said from many times and not the other R1b1 of Eastern diffusion with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23.
This cluster has so far 2 Englishmen, many Ashkenazi Jews who belong to the same haplotype and the Italian DeMao. We have discussed also recently about him (AJL said that he is of Jewish origin, I said not, and lgmayka said on eng.molgen that his haplotype is very different from the Jewish one and no Jew has been found so far close to him). Of course my idea is that these and other Jews, Ashkenazic but also Sephardic ones, are introgressed from the European pool. This cluster A is also close to the R-M335 found so far above all in Europe and for all this reasons my theory is that of the Western European origin of this haplogroup and subclades. We have to say that there is also the Italian Toniolo linked to this haplotype, present in SMGF and whose data aren’t yet released by the same SMGF. From this my theory that this haplogroup has its origin just in Italy or at least in Western Europe.


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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2013, 04:05:02 AM »

All these SNPs are present also in Raza (267597: R1b/M343/L278/M415) except YSC0000224. Thus only this SNP shall be put between M343 and P25, either at the same level or after it(P25).
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Maliclavelli


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mcg11
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2013, 10:37:10 AM »

For your thesis to be correct we need some corroborating data.  It is generally proposed that R1b originated in the East and migrated westward.  This is sometimes hard to believe since the most western regions have the highest R1b populations?  The only decent defense of a Western origin I am aware of was proposed by an early climatologist, Dr. Rhys Carpenter in his book "Discontinuity in Greek Civilization" published in 1966 by Cambridge University Press.  In that book he discusses the lush climate of the Sahara during the Ice Age.  

He also talks about the early inhabitants of Western Europe as follows: " Between these two impassable fronts, the solid ice to the north and the snow-blocked mountains to the south - a corridor of open country led west from inner Asia to the Atlantic coast.  At the end of this corridor, in what today is France, were the winds brought moisture from the unfrozen Atlantic and somewhat tempered the rigors of the atmosphere, there lived a race of hunters amid the herds of wild animals - reindeer and bison and  mammoth -- on which they fed. .....the animals ( and after them the hunters) seem to have wandered away, under the climatic shelter of the retreating icecap, through the great European corridor across Russia into Siberia, where we lose sight of them."

All of these ideas were published long before DNA studies began and were based solely on climactic conditions toward the end of the last Ice Age.  If his ideas are correct then this would provide the scenario to support an R1b origin in western Europe not eastern.  (edit: note that this assumes the early inhabitants of the west were R1b, among possibly other Hgs.)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 10:45:14 AM by mcg11 » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2013, 11:08:10 AM »

I thank you for your posting. I have never said that R was born in Western Europe (being linked to Q and coming from P, that its origin is in Asia is very likely). I have said that probably from R1b1 and subclades everything, studying the survived haplotypes, points to Western Europe, and I have said that there is an R1b1 of Western European origin and an R1b1 of Eastern one, but only from the Western European one, with YCAII=18-23 (and in Italy 18-22: Demao and Toniolo) derive the subclades, not only R-M269, but also R-M73 and R-M335. This is what I am saying from many years, and, of course, my dating of these haplogroups is much older than it is thought, and I think demonstrated with good arguments.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 11:09:08 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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mcg11
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2013, 04:34:57 PM »

I have my doubts about anyones ability at the present time to accurately tie Hg origins to geographical locations 10k to 20k years in the past.  The climate was different; the landmasses of Europe and the atlantic shoreline were different; Britain was tied to Europe and Europe and Africa were linked on the west coast.  To me its more logical to have R1b begin in the West rather than the east, in part because of the current population distribution.

Early societies existing in North America, Australia and Europe were capable of migrating large distances in periods of only months.  Rootsweb has been discussing a paper by Klyosov about using linguistics to help understand Hg geographical distributions and there is a lot of controversy.

Your analysis supports the idea that very early on, R1b had a presence in Europe.  I believe its correct.  To go further than that, using only STR analysis, is probably risky.  JMHO.
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2013, 07:31:42 PM »

To have "R1b begin in the West", you would have to have R1 in the West, since R1b, like R1a, first appeared in the offspring of a man who was R1 (R-M173).

That makes no sense. Sorry.

Don't let the wish become the father of the thought.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2013, 11:52:21 PM »

I have no time to answer you deeply now, but R1a-M420 has been found above all in Western Europe (the Isles but also Italy) more than East and no one in Asia (India etc.). Many early subclades of it are more in the Alpine zone than where R1a1a etc is more diffused now....
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 11:53:04 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2013, 03:59:31 AM »

Sorry, Gioiello, but arguing for a western origin for R1b is just silly. Now you are saying R1a originated in the West, as well?

When I read your arguments, they are all about this particular individual's haplotype or that individual's haplotype, as found at FTDNA or SMGF or yhrd. They are tenuous at best and tedious to follow, not to mention unconvincing (sorry).

R1's closest genetic relatives are all focused in the East, and R1b is oldest in the East, where most of the Q and R1a are also found.

I don't want to get bogged down in this kind of really fringe stuff, so I'll leave it at that.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2013, 05:08:44 AM »

Sorry, Gioiello, but arguing for a western origin for R1b is just silly. Now you are saying R1a originated in the West, as well?

When I read your arguments, they are all about this particular individual's haplotype or that individual's haplotype, as found at FTDNA or SMGF or yhrd. They are tenuous at best and tedious to follow, not to mention unconvincing (sorry).

R1's closest genetic relatives are all focused in the East, and R1b is oldest in the East, where most of the Q and R1a are also found.

I don't want to get bogged down in this kind of really fringe stuff, so I'll leave it at that.

You are free to think and to do what you want. I haven’t spoken about the origin of R (I have said recently that if R is linked to Q and both descend from P, it is very likely that the origin is in Asia), but about the origin of R1b1 and subclades as well as of R1a-M420. I have received this morning a letter of my friend Sam Vass with the last Geno 2.0 about these early subclades, and if I were you I’d be less sure about your positions.
Anyway the aDNA will solve the question and so far, for what I know, the most ancient is that found in Germany about 5000 YBP. When some R springs up elsewhere, I’ll be glad to look at it.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2013, 05:23:01 AM »

Your theory and those of VV and all the others wasn’t that of the origin of R1b, but that of the recent introgression of R1b1a2 into Europe from Middle East or from the steppes and above all of the recent origin of these subclades and probably about all this you all have been and will be more in the future the losers.
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Maliclavelli


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Bren123
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2013, 06:59:52 AM »

Sorry, Gioiello, but arguing for a western origin for R1b is just silly. Now you are saying R1a originated in the West, as well?

When I read your arguments, they are all about this particular individual's haplotype or that individual's haplotype, as found at FTDNA or SMGF or yhrd. They are tenuous at best and tedious to follow, not to mention unconvincing (sorry).

R1's closest genetic relatives are all focused in the East, and R1b is oldest in the East, where most of the Q and R1a are also found.

I don't want to get bogged down in this kind of really fringe stuff, so I'll leave it at that.

Gioiello's argument seems to be similar to a Post hoc ergo propter hoc!
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LDJ
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2013, 08:29:44 AM »

Gioiello's argument seems to be similar to a Post hoc ergo propter hoc!

Which argument do they use who think that hg. R comes from Asia? That Q and before P and the linked NO and also S etc. are  found in Asia now, then also R was born in Asia. And which argument do they use who believe that man was born in Africa, above all against Anatole Klyosov’s theory? That AOO, A ,B, are above all in Africa, then also CT comes from Africa.
You should be coherent, and not to use this argument when it likes you but always.

About the rms2’s regret that I use single samples, I could say that if I were the owner of firms which test thousands of samples I would be able to use thousands of samples.
SMGF hasn’t yet released the complete test of Toniolo, I am not able to test (neither to contact) Mangino/Mancini, and lately neither Marchesi etc. But I am sure of myself and you will see that I’ll win, against prejudices, banishments and the powers of many lobbies.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 09:06:05 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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Bren123
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2013, 10:25:46 AM »



Which argument do they use who think that hg. R comes from Asia? That Q and before P and the linked NO and also S etc. are  found in Asia now, then also R was born in Asia. And which argument do they use who believe that man was born in Africa, above all against Anatole Klyosov’s theory? That AOO, A ,B, are above all in Africa, then also CT comes from Africa.
You should be coherent, and not to use this argument when it likes you but always.

I agree! I think using genetics to point someone to a past  cultures and ethnic group are highly subjective, IMHO.

Quote from: Maliclavelli
About the rms2’s regret that I use single samples, I could say that if I were the owner of firms which test thousands of samples I would be able to use thousands of samples.
SMGF hasn’t yet released the complete test of Toniolo, I am not able to test (neither to contact) Mangino/Mancini, and lately neither Marchesi etc. But I am sure of myself and you will see that I’ll win, against prejudices, banishments and the powers of many lobbies.


What prejudices?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 10:34:00 AM by Bren123 » Logged

LDJ
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2013, 11:15:27 AM »

What prejudices?

If you ask about prejudices, this does mean that lobbies and “banishments” are objective (difficult to deny them: at the end of 2007 from Rootsweb, after from DNA-forums, many banishments promised to me also here, before many people abandoned this forums, on eng.molgen, before the most people not R1a abandoned that forum, on Anthrogenica, more than a promised banishment in the language of the football (soccer for you) we’d say in Italian a “melina” done by some moderators).

Which prejudice? Above all that against Ancient Romans, to whom many of you regret the annihilation of Celtic cultures. Only one of you recognized that Romans had some reasons for this for the invasion of North Italy, the facts at Rome of 390 BC, etc. And you should remember that Celts and Italics were the same people and my theory is that their origin was just in Italy.
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Maliclavelli


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Jdean
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2013, 03:09:51 PM »

Which prejudice? Above all that against Ancient Romans, to whom many of you regret the annihilation of Celtic cultures.

Now you're being silly
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OConnor
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2013, 04:37:46 PM »

did the ancient Romans annihilate Celtic Cultures in Ireland?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Arch Y.
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« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2013, 03:21:10 AM »

What prejudices?

If you ask about prejudices, this does mean that lobbies and “banishments” are objective (difficult to deny them: at the end of 2007 from Rootsweb, after from DNA-forums, many banishments promised to me also here, before many people abandoned this forums, on eng.molgen, before the most people not R1a abandoned that forum, on Anthrogenica, more than a promised banishment in the language of the football (soccer for you) we’d say in Italian a “melina” done by some moderators).

Which prejudice? Above all that against Ancient Romans, to whom many of you regret the annihilation of Celtic cultures. Only one of you recognized that Romans had some reasons for this for the invasion of North Italy, the facts at Rome of 390 BC, etc. And you should remember that Celts and Italics were the same people and my theory is that their origin was just in Italy.


The Celtic and Italic languages were converged at one point. I don't think anybody disputes the obvious and we just need more DNA to prove an ancestral origin in Italy of both. My closest GD in Europe is from Italy at 16 with 67 markers.

Arch
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Bren123
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2013, 09:50:42 AM »

What prejudices?

If you ask about prejudices, this does mean that lobbies and “banishments” are objective (difficult to deny them: at the end of 2007 from Rootsweb, after from DNA-forums, many banishments promised to me also here, before many people abandoned this forums, on eng.molgen, before the most people not R1a abandoned that forum, on Anthrogenica, more than a promised banishment in the language of the football (soccer for you) we’d say in Italian a “melina” done by some moderators).

Which prejudice? Above all that against Ancient Romans, to whom many of you regret the annihilation of Celtic cultures. Only one of you recognized that Romans had some reasons for this for the invasion of North Italy, the facts at Rome of 390 BC, etc. And you should remember that Celts and Italics were the same people and my theory is that their origin was just in Italy.


The Celtic and Italic languages were converged at one point. I don't think anybody disputes the obvious and we just need more DNA to prove an ancestral origin in Italy of both. My closest GD in Europe is from Italy at 16 with 67 markers.

Arch

The Celtic and Italic language convergence is not widely accepted and is disputed!
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LDJ
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