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Author Topic: R1b Deepclade Testing  (Read 719 times)
MikeMcG
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« on: May 09, 2013, 07:11:01 PM »


As I have posted before, based on my father's surname and origin I originally thought (before my YDNA results) that I would be M222 or L226, but based on my YDNA67 and matches I now think it more probable I am DF27*.  I was planning to use GENO 2.0 to confirm M269,  P213 and confirm/eliminate the various subclades, but then I found out that GENO 2.0 apparently did not include M269, P213, nor DF27.  GENO 2.0 would probably indicate only that I am P210* although it may confirm/eliminate some R1b subclades.   I am looking for other possible options that in a single test will provide more R1b subclade information especially if I am DF27±, L21±, M222±, or L226±; and other possible subclades.  If I do not find a better option I will probably eventually have the single SNP test for DF27.

On another Forum someone suggested to another poster that taking a "23andMe test that will give you your deep subclades for both Y-DNA and mtDNA."  I have been trying to find out without success so far if the 23andme results would include DF27/S250.

I have only been in DNA since I decided to be tested less than 6 months ago.  I have been trying to learn all I can but I am not familiar with all the jargon.  There is a website at http://daver.info/ysub/ where almost 4,000 Y SNPs are listed from 23andme for multiple individuals.  I downloaded the spreadsheet that include the R haplogroup but the SNPs are listed mostly by “rs” id numbers.  ISOGG lists DF27 but does not include the “rs” number for this SNP but does list the mutation as G->A and the NCBI36 Y position as 19839588.  The NCBI site http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/projects/SNP/snp_ref.cgi?searchType=adhoc_search&type=rs&rs=rs201932376 shows this position on the Y to be rs201932376, but I do not see where the NCBI page refers to the G->A mutation.  Is this DF27? If it is it is not any suggestions how to find the rs id for DF27?  Maybe it has not yet been assigned?  If this is the correct rs id then it appears DF27 is probably not picked up by the 23andme chip.

Or if anyone can point me to where a list of the Y SNPs on the latest 23andme chip I would appreciate it.

Mike
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Mike McG

FTDNA Y DNA67 Predicted M269+
23&me Y DNA R1b1b2a1a (L11?)
YSearch 4AKVE (DNA67 Haplotype DF27*)
Yseq DF27+, Z2571-

FTDNA mtDNA T2b4-T152C!
23&me mtDNA T2b

Recent Ancestry:
50% Southern Irish (Cashel, Tipperary)
50% Southern English (London)
Jdean
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 07:30:41 PM »

Could you post your kit no. or 67 loci results ?
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

MikeMcG
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 07:48:46 PM »

Could you post your kit no. or 67 loci results ?

Jdean

My Ysearch ID is 4AKVE

Mike

Also a previous post:

I checked my YDNA67 against some of the Modals listed by Mikewww in R1b Modals in Ysearch and the C8WMT Dwyer/Ryan  Group which I am close to with the following results:

UserID______GD____ Last Name Origin
4AKVE______00____ McGrath Cashel, Tipperary, Ireland 
C8WMT_____03____ Dwyer/Ryan Tipperary and Limerick, Ireland  R1b1a2a1a1b* 
2YYB6______13____ R1b-L11* (S127*) Paragroup Modal*
6JCVN______13____ R1b-L2 (S139) and all Subclades Modal
QM4ES______13____ R1b-U152 (S28) and all Subclades Modal*
XQJ7H______14____ R1b-P312 (S116) and all Subclades Modal*
K9VGV_____16____ R1b-L21 (S145) and all Subclades Modal*
53ZBP______16____ R1b-DF27 and all Subclades Modal*
N5PA5______18____ R1b-U106 (S21) and all Subclades Modal*

Although everyone in the Dwyer/Ryan Group who has tested is DF27+ and negative for most of its subclades it seems there is a substantial variation with the  R1b-DF27 and all Subclades Modal.  When I get time I will go back and check some other Modals.

Mike
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Mike McG

FTDNA Y DNA67 Predicted M269+
23&me Y DNA R1b1b2a1a (L11?)
YSearch 4AKVE (DNA67 Haplotype DF27*)
Yseq DF27+, Z2571-

FTDNA mtDNA T2b4-T152C!
23&me mtDNA T2b

Recent Ancestry:
50% Southern Irish (Cashel, Tipperary)
50% Southern English (London)
Wayne Kauffman
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 08:37:35 PM »


Or if anyone can point me to where a list of the Y SNPs on the latest 23andme chip I would appreciate it.

Mike

You can see the list in Adriano's spreadsheet's linked off of http://daver.info/ysub/  .  Geno 2 will provide a much more current picture than the 23andme results since it includes some 23andme discoveries with WTY and a portion of the mined 1K genome SNPs. 
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U106-L48
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 10:24:56 PM »

The closest to you on ySearch are all R-P312 probably DF27+, then I think this is your haplogroup, that diffused in the British/Irish world.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 10:26:08 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Jdean
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2013, 03:33:46 AM »


Jdean

My Ysearch ID is 4AKVE

Mike


I'd test DF27 if I were you

Your closest SNP tested match is kit no. 207164 in the R-P312 project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?section=ysnp
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 03:45:05 AM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

MikeMcG
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2013, 12:41:01 PM »

Thanks everyone for your replies.
 
Wayne – I should have written:
“Or if anyone can point me to where a list of the Y SNPs (by shorthand name such as R-DF27) on the latest 23andme chip I would appreciate it.” 
I was aware that the site you mentioned listed almost 4,000 SNPs by rs or other id#s but since I could not find what the rs id was corresponding to R-DF27 it didn't help. That was the list you mention was what I used to try to determine if rs201932376 was found on the 23andme chip, but thanks again.

Jdean – My FTDNA matches include several Cannadys as well as mainly other south Irish individuals in the Dywer/Ryan group  so I agree that I am most probably DF27*.  However, if I spent the ~$50 for the DF27 test only to find I am negative for that and then a lot of additional money testing for other SNPs only to find out eventually I am say P312*, when I could have spent ~$100-$200 for a combined test that would also supplement my FF and FMS results; I would really be kicking myself.

Since FTDNA is promoting GENO 2.0 as a replacement Deep Clade test I am still hoping there will be a GENO 2.1 or 3.0 that will include a lot more Y SNPs including DF27.  In fact, I would  think there is even a market for a stand alone Y SNP test that includes all the known Y SNPs and, if possible, the probable locations where new Y SNPs may occur for say $100-$200 price range.

Any comments on finding what the rs id# is from the NCBI36 Y position?

Mike
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Mike McG

FTDNA Y DNA67 Predicted M269+
23&me Y DNA R1b1b2a1a (L11?)
YSearch 4AKVE (DNA67 Haplotype DF27*)
Yseq DF27+, Z2571-

FTDNA mtDNA T2b4-T152C!
23&me mtDNA T2b

Recent Ancestry:
50% Southern Irish (Cashel, Tipperary)
50% Southern English (London)
Jdean
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 01:19:00 PM »


Jdean – My FTDNA matches include several Cannadys as well as mainly other south Irish individuals in the Dywer/Ryan group  so I agree that I am most probably DF27*.  However, if I spent the ~$50 for the DF27 test only to find I am negative for that and then a lot of additional money testing for other SNPs only to find out eventually I am say P312*, when I could have spent ~$100-$200 for a combined test that would also supplement my FF and FMS results; I would really be kicking myself.


I'd say there's a pretty good chance you'll test positive for DF27, however they're quite a lot of SNPs under that umbrella so it's unlikely to be your terminal SNP.

FTDNA are apparntly working on the new flavour of Geno2 (3?) at the moment but there's no guarantee DF27 will be on it, there were some complications with that SNP which is why it costs more than others.

Also it's likely this project

http://www.justgiving.com/DNAforum

will be adding even more !!

Bottom line there's never an ideal time to test these days, there's always something coming round the corner : )
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 01:29:12 PM »

Thanks everyone for your replies.
  
Wayne – I should have written:
“Or if anyone can point me to where a list of the Y SNPs (by shorthand name such as R-DF27) on the latest 23andme chip I would appreciate it.”  
I was aware that the site you mentioned listed almost 4,000 SNPs by rs or other id#s but since I could not find what the rs id was corresponding to R-DF27 it didn't help. That was the list you mention was what I used to try to determine if rs201932376 was found on the 23andme chip, but thanks again.

Jdean – My FTDNA matches include several Cannadys as well as mainly other south Irish individuals in the Dywer/Ryan group  so I agree that I am most probably DF27*.  However, if I spent the ~$50 for the DF27 test only to find I am negative for that and then a lot of additional money testing for other SNPs only to find out eventually I am say P312*, when I could have spent ~$100-$200 for a combined test that would also supplement my FF and FMS results; I would really be kicking myself.

Since FTDNA is promoting GENO 2.0 as a replacement Deep Clade test I am still hoping there will be a GENO 2.1 or 3.0 that will include a lot more Y SNPs including DF27.  In fact, I would  think there is even a market for a stand alone Y SNP test that includes all the known Y SNPs and, if possible, the probable locations where new Y SNPs may occur for say $100-$200 price range.

Any comments on finding what the rs id# is from the NCBI36 Y position?

Mike

I recommend joining the R1b and Subclades Gateway project and help forum.
www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/

There is a "Compare Tool" that lets you look at yourself compared to others who have tested for SNPs. My guess is that JDean has already taken some kind of similar look at this so the DF27+ possibility is strong.

However, DF27 is quite early in the DNA tree so there are lots of variations deeper than the DF27 level. That fact, plus the fact there might be some interest in mt and autosomal DNA might make Geno 2.0 as the conservative alternative for you. I mean it is a safe offering in that you'll get meaningful results on multiple fronts.

If you go the Geno 2.0 route, I still recommend joining the R1b project above. It's important to transfer your results to FTDNA and depending on what they are we'll want to contact one of the project administrators listening in on that yahoo group as there is an additional "manual" step for analysis of Geno 2.0 results.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 01:29:55 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
MikeMcG
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 07:07:10 PM »



Bottom line there's never an ideal time to test these days, there's always something coming round the corner : )

Jdean

Yeah, I am used to that situation with PCs since I bought my first home computer, a TI 99/4, for $750 in 1980.  I bought an upgraded version TI 99/4A a few years later for $50 when they were discontinuing it.  I figured it was probably cheaper to get a spare than to repair it. I am always struggling with the descision to upgrade when my old PC works just fine.  :)


I recommend joining the R1b and Subclades Gateway project and help forum.
www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/

There is a "Compare Tool" that lets you look at yourself compared to others who have tested for SNPs. My guess is that JDean has already taken some kind of similar look at this so the DF27+ possibility is strong.

However, DF27 is quite early in the DNA tree so there are lots of variations deeper than the DF27 level. That fact, plus the fact there might be some interest in mt and autosomal DNA might make Geno 2.0 as the conservative alternative for you. I mean it is a safe offering in that you'll get meaningful results on multiple fronts.

If you go the Geno 2.0 route, I still recommend joining the R1b project above. It's important to transfer your results to FTDNA and depending on what they are we'll want to contact one of the project administrators listening in on that yahoo group as there is an additional "manual" step for analysis of Geno 2.0 results.


Mikewww

My understanding from posts on the Internet is that quite a few of the R1b SNPs including DF27 are missing from GENO 2.0 although I also understand the GENO group have not yet published a list of the Y SNPs that are included.  At this point I am willing to wait to see for sure what is on GENO 2.0 or what upgrade there will be in the future if any.

I believe I have sufficiently looked into my haplotype to say I am most probably DF27* without doing any actual SNP tests for DF27 or any of its subclades.  There is a possibility I am L86.2+ but the two individuals who tested positive have a common surname and are more distant from me in terms of GD  than the two individuals who tested L86.2-.  I am guessing I have less than a 1 in 3 possibility of being  L86.2+ even if I am DF27+.  The other possibility is L881+ since I understand no one in the Dwyer/Ryan Group has tested for this since it is thought less likely anyone is L881+. 

I will join the R1b and Subclades Gateway project and see if I can compare my haplotype to L881+ there or on Ysearch.

In the end I will probably test for DF27 but I do not see that adds very much since it is still such a diverse group.

Thanks for your comments

Mike 
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Mike McG

FTDNA Y DNA67 Predicted M269+
23&me Y DNA R1b1b2a1a (L11?)
YSearch 4AKVE (DNA67 Haplotype DF27*)
Yseq DF27+, Z2571-

FTDNA mtDNA T2b4-T152C!
23&me mtDNA T2b

Recent Ancestry:
50% Southern Irish (Cashel, Tipperary)
50% Southern English (London)
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