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Castlebob
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« on: May 03, 2013, 03:04:14 PM »

I was recently contacted by Prof Jim Wilson who pointed out that he had discovered an SNP  that a number of Armstrongs carried. 70% of his Armstrong testees  were L624+/S389+ . I have therefore ordered a test for that SNP as Jim is confident I will be part of that group.
Jim tells me that less than 1% of English & Scottish folk so far fall into this category. A number of  testees have Scottish origins. Several other surnames are also positive for that SNP.
It'll be interesting to see what can be deduced from those testing positive for this SNP.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 08:24:16 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Webb
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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2013, 03:53:24 PM »

I was recently contacted by Prof Jim Wilson who pointed out that he had discovered an SNP  that a number of Armstrongs carried. 70% of his Armstrong testees  were L624+/S389+ . I have therefore ordered a test for that SNP as Jim is confident I will be part of that group.
Jim tells me that less than 1% of English & Scots folk so far fall into this category. A number of those testees have Scottish origins. Several other surnames are also positive for that SNP.
It'll be interesting to see what can be deduced from those testing positive for this SNP.
Cheers,
Bob

That's huge news, particularly if you are P312**.
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William B. Webb
P312>DF27>Z220
Castlebob
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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2013, 03:58:36 PM »

Yes. I'm R-P312**. Progress at last. There's light is at the end of the tunnel!
Bob
« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 02:20:31 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2013, 08:18:15 PM »

Congratulations, Bob!

Dr. Jim Wilson is a good guy.
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Castlebob
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2013, 02:04:48 PM »

Congratulations, Bob!

Dr. Jim Wilson is a good guy.
Thanks for that. Greatly appreciated.
I'll keep you posted.
Cheers,
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
GoldenHind
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 10:22:24 AM »

I was recently contacted by Prof Jim Wilson who pointed out that he had discovered an SNP  that a number of Armstrongs carried. 70% of his Armstrong testees  were L624+/S389+ . I have therefore ordered a test for that SNP as Jim is confident I will be part of that group.
Jim tells me that less than 1% of English & Scottish folk so far fall into this category. A number of  testees have Scottish origins. Several other surnames are also positive for that SNP.
It'll be interesting to see what can be deduced from those testing positive for this SNP.
Cheers,
Bob

I doubt we will make much progress with this until FTDNA begins offering it. Does anyone know if Dr. Krahn is aware of this development?
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Castlebob
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 11:34:43 AM »

I ordered L624 from FTDNA for £24. (Under $40?).
Not sure about Dr. Krahn.
Bob
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 11:35:10 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Castlebob
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2013, 10:32:00 AM »

My S389/L624 result via BritainsDNA  is in & it's positive. Full Chromo 2 due in by 29th Nov.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 12:28:42 PM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2013, 05:06:03 AM »

My S389 result is in & it's positive. Chromo 2 due in by 29th Nov.
Cheers,
Bob

Congratulations!
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Castlebob
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2013, 04:54:06 AM »

Just got my full results in. The Armstrong mainstream are now subtype R1b-389. The blurb states that in Britain & Ireland  'it  appears to be considerably more common in Scotland'. I gather several others with Scottish fatherlines are in this group. It'd be interesting to know some of their surnames.
I'm also listed under the R1b-S116 Beaker Folk category.
Bob
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 06:28:54 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2013, 09:09:44 AM »

Just got my full results in. The Armstrong mainstream are now subtype R1b-389. The blurb states that in Britain & Ireland  'it  appears to be considerably more common in Scotland'. I gather several others with Scottish fatherlines are in this group. It'd be interesting to know some of their surnames.
I'm also listed under the R1b-S116 Beaker Folk category.
Bob

That is great news.

It's quite a development that Dr. Wilson and BritainsDNA now see P312/S116 as having first been brought to the Isles with the Beaker Folk. Here is a quote from my own Chromo2 y-dna results:

Quote from: BritainsDNA
Why were the Beaker Folk so successful? Others brought the new techniques of farming with them but your ancestors probably derived tremendous prestige and power from other skills. Their decorated beakers have occasionally been found to contain the residue of beer and there is some evidence that the cultivation of barley increased after c2,500BC. But however attractive brewing may have been, it was more likely that their abilities as metalworkers powered their tremendous expansion. Copper is a comparatively soft metal but it could still be fashioned into fearsome weaponry. Axe-like halberds have been found. It may well be that the dominance of R1b lineages in general and R1b-S116 in particular came about because of an aggressive takeover of land. And as the Beaker Folk established themselves, their markers multiplied quickly . . .

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Castlebob
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2013, 11:11:43 AM »

Any idea on numbers who are currently R1b-S116?
Also, how do I find out other surnames who are as per the above?
Bob
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 11:19:18 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2013, 11:59:57 AM »

Any idea on numbers who are currently R1b-S116?
Also, how do I find out other surnames who are as per the above?
Bob

I don't run the P312 Project anymore, so I'm not sure. I know that Goldenhind said a couple of P312* men of British ancestry have tested negative for DF99. It would seem to me they would be good candidates to test for S389/L624, if they haven't already done so.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2013, 02:47:07 PM »

Just got my full results in. The Armstrong mainstream are now subtype R1b-389. The blurb states that in Britain & Ireland  'it  appears to be considerably more common in Scotland'. I gather several others with Scottish fatherlines are in this group. It'd be interesting to know some of their surnames.
I'm also listed under the R1b-S116 Beaker Folk category.
Bob

That is much improved, as the last time I looked at the BritainsDNA website, they listed S116 (P312) as "hunter-gatherer."
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2013, 08:45:40 AM »

Just got my full results in. The Armstrong mainstream are now subtype R1b-389. The blurb states that in Britain & Ireland  'it  appears to be considerably more common in Scotland'. I gather several others with Scottish fatherlines are in this group. It'd be interesting to know some of their surnames.
I'm also listed under the R1b-S116 Beaker Folk category.
Bob

That is much improved, as the last time I looked at the BritainsDNA website, they listed S116 (P312) as "hunter-gatherer."

Yeah, apparently they have really changed their perspective. P312/S116 is regarded as having been spread mainly by Beaker Folk in the Copper and Bronze Ages. Likewise, L21/S145 in the Isles is attributed to the Beaker Folk.

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Castlebob
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2013, 10:17:38 AM »

I found a Wiki map titled 'Beaker Culture Distribution'. One of the Beaker hot-spots is in what we now call the Netherlands, spreading into eastern Belgium. It's interesting  comparing it to BritainsDNA map for R1b-S116 HG Distribution in Britain.

EDIT: I'll re-read Henri Hubert with more interest now!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 01:46:58 PM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2013, 04:01:31 PM »

I found a Wiki map titled 'Beaker Culture Distribution'. One of the Beaker hot-spots is in what we now call the Netherlands, spreading into eastern Belgium. It's interesting  comparing it to BritainsDNA map for R1b-S116 HG Distribution in Britain.

EDIT: I'll re-read Henri Hubert with more interest now!


Hubert believed the Beaker Folk from that region comprised the "Goidels" who went to Britain and Ireland carrying a Q-Celtic language with them and leaving the North Sea coast almost lock, stock, and barrel.

There is a lot of U106 in the area of the Low Countries now. I could be wrong, but in my personal opinion, U106 did not have much if anything to do with Beaker. I think U106 came into the Lower Rhine region later, around 700 BC, with the arrival Germanic peoples there. Here is why I think this way.

The Beaker Folk are believed to have spread Italo-Celtic with them and an early form of Celtic to the Isles. U106, on the other hand, is closely associated with Germanic languages. In the Low Countries and Switzerland, for example, U106 is frequent where Germanic languages prevail but drops off drastically as one moves into the Romance-speaking areas, where the descendants of the Gallo-Romans (Celts) live. In Britain, U106 is at its most frequent in those places most heavily settled by the Anglo-Saxons and their descendants, the English, but it fades as one moves north and west into the places where Celtic languages survived the longest or still survive. In all three cases, in the Low Countries, Switzerland, and Britain, as U106 fades, the frequency of P312/S116 and its clades increases and vice versa.

The distribution of P312/S116 is a much better fit for Italo-Celtic peoples than is U106.

While I realize that two sets of remains are not a lot, the two Beaker men from the Kromsdorf site in Germany who were successfully tested for y-dna were both R1b but U106-. That seems like it could be significant, since today Germany has a U106 frequency of nearly 30%.

My own belief, based on the evidence currently available, is that U106 is intimately connected to the evolution of the Germanic languages and peoples and thus was probably not involved in the Beaker settlement of the British Isles.

The Beaker Folk who went to Britain and Ireland, in my opinion, belonged mostly to P312/S116 and its clades.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 04:02:56 PM by rms2 » Logged

Castlebob
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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2013, 05:23:20 PM »

I haven't read Hubert for a while, so thanks for the précis. A lot of the Victorian theories need correcting. I think you could well be correct. I'll skim-read it later.
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
rms2
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2013, 04:57:13 AM »

I'm hoping we get some accurate ancient y-dna testing from Britain and Ireland soon, especially of the Beaker Folk. And I hope they test them for some downstream SNPs and don't just stop at M343 or M269.

To dream the impossible dream . . .
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