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Author Topic: ScotlandsDNA Says L1335 (S530) Means Descent from the Picts  (Read 3841 times)
mcg11
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2013, 01:15:30 PM »

In Stumpf and Goldsteins equation there is an entry for the number of haplotypes involved in the calculation.  Chandler states that if you are comparing a modal, you do not count it because you are not changing any of its values.  L 10335 is a modal but it is younger, so possibly, rather than dividing by two I should only divide by one?

The full equation I use is TMRCA = (1/#entries)X(1/#dys Loci)X 31 x(Sum of (#mus/mrate) for all dys loci).  My comment was directed to the number of entries entered.  I actually use 31,000 as the years per gen.  That makes the mu(rate) a simple whole number or fraction thereof.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 07:10:51 AM by mcg11 » Logged
mcg11
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2013, 07:14:51 AM »

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+.  In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection).  The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

But L1335+ is CTS4466- !

You are right.  Mark Jost has shown that CTS4466 is negative for L1335 and vice versa.  Looks like L1335 follows some other TBD line.

Kind regards,

Morten
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2013, 06:35:04 PM »

I think ethnic labels are premature.  There are too many ifs an buts, too much variation in dating and we again have to avoid concluding origin point based on frequency.  What markers like that do help with is people wanting a marker that puts their ancestry in Scotland (or most probably there) in deep time in early history or later prehistory. But in a country like Scotland that has been multi ethnic (in the sens of Britons, Picts, Scots, Angles then later Norse) for 1500-2000 years it is not easy to make ethnic conclusions.  Indeed the idea that the country was a simple uniformity before history shone its light is also illogical.  There were clearly several very distinct provinces in prehistory in Scotland, some of them quite persistent.  For now I think these markers are better just used to identify a high probability of fairly deep Scottish ancestry than a pseudo-ethic Dark Ages division.   
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mcg11
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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2013, 07:19:47 AM »

I think ethnic labels are premature.  There are too many ifs an buts, too much variation in dating and we again have to avoid concluding origin point based on frequency.  What markers like that do help with is people wanting a marker that puts their ancestry in Scotland (or most probably there) in deep time in early history or later prehistory. But in a country like Scotland that has been multi ethnic (in the sens of Britons, Picts, Scots, Angles then later Norse) for 1500-2000 years it is not easy to make ethnic conclusions.  Indeed the idea that the country was a simple uniformity before history shone its light is also illogical.  There were clearly several very distinct provinces in prehistory in Scotland, some of them quite persistent.  For now I think these markers are better just used to identify a high probability of fairly deep Scottish ancestry than a pseudo-ethic Dark Ages division.   

You may very well be right, but part of the answer is here now that the Clan Gregor and many associated clans are 1335, 1065+.  This would suggest that the "legends" re: KIng Alpin and the Dal riada scots may be correct?

we have no "prehistory" information?  We do have early Roman chronicles which describe two main tribes: Caledonians and Maetae(sp?).  The first mention of PIcts and Scottis in Scotland is c. 300 AD or so.

Its not just the invasions, it was the subsequent wars which have shaped Scotland.  Where are the original inhabitants today?  Are there any  left?  How did the Picts simply vanish into the ethnic cloud?

STR mutations do suggest lines of heritage, but as in this case, may be misleading.  Right now all we have is a big cloud called DF13, out of which numerous lines of descent originated.  Who, what, where was DF13 and what is its timespan? There are strong indications that Z253, a DF13 descendant, has strong ties to Iberia.  When did this SNP occur?  I know the current thinking is 2K to 3K BC; but I thought Iberian migrations occurred much earlier than that?

I don't think, personally, it is useless to try and solve these apparent conflicting sets of data by modelling with possible STR mutational paths?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2013, 10:33:58 PM »

I think ethnic labels are premature.  There are too many ifs an buts, too much variation in dating and we again have to avoid concluding origin point based on frequency.  What markers like that do help with is people wanting a marker that puts their ancestry in Scotland (or most probably there) in deep time in early history or later prehistory. But in a country like Scotland that has been multi ethnic (in the sens of Britons, Picts, Scots, Angles then later Norse) for 1500-2000 years it is not easy to make ethnic conclusions.  Indeed the idea that the country was a simple uniformity before history shone its light is also illogical.  There were clearly several very distinct provinces in prehistory in Scotland, some of them quite persistent.  For now I think these markers are better just used to identify a high probability of fairly deep Scottish ancestry than a pseudo-ethic Dark Ages division.   

You may very well be right, but part of the answer is here now that the Clan Gregor and many associated clans are 1335, 1065+.  This would suggest that the "legends" re: KIng Alpin and the Dal riada scots may be correct?
...

I don't know the answers, but ironically ScotlandDNA thinks that R1bSTR47, the Scots Modal, which looks to equate to L1065+, is Pictish. They are saying it is the Pictish marker.  It's in their book where they explain the distribution of R1bSTR47 and how it actually fits ancient Picts.

I don't know, but I do find it intriguing that the L1335+ L1065- guys that we know of are Wales II modal folks, whom claim that are are of Cadwgon descendency. Their story is they are the "men of the north" (a reference to northern Great Britain).
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mcg11
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2013, 07:12:47 AM »


You may very well be right, but part of the answer is here now that the Clan Gregor and many associated clans are 1335, 1065+.  This would suggest that the "legends" re: KIng Alpin and the Dal riada scots may be correct?
...

I don't know the answers, but ironically ScotlandDNA thinks that R1bSTR47, the Scots Modal, which looks to equate to L1065+, is Pictish. They are saying it is the Pictish marker.  It's in their book where they explain the distribution of R1bSTR47 and how it actually fits ancient Picts.

I don't know, but I do find it intriguing that the L1335+ L1065- guys that we know of are Wales II modal folks, whom claim that are are of Cadwgon descendency. Their story is they are the "men of the north" (a reference to northern Great Britain).
[/quote]

As I said elsewhere my assumption that the Dal Riada are descended from the so-called S. Irish appears to be incorrect.  The Edinburgh folks (Woolf, Fraser and Wilson) have long said that most of Gregor etc. were originally Picts.  They now have some DNA data to evaluate.  It'll be interesting to see how they react to that?

As you know, from another forum, Klyosov/Conroy now claim that the M222 folks are descended from the Domnoni and especially important is their claim that there are different flavors of M 222 ( Scot, Irish, SW english).  If they are right, it shows how much movement between Gaul and S. England/Ireland/Scotland occurred and how different settlements evolved differently (some were eventually displaced, some thrived, some didn't etc.).  Variance is one measure, but with different population sizes it becomes difficult to determine the original population? (Note: Jost says Leinster is oldest, Klyosov/Conroy say SW England), but everyone seems to agree that originally they lived in Gaul?  At what physical location did the M222 mutation occur?
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Albannach
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« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2013, 09:29:55 PM »

I notice that amongst the Wales II group that has tested positive for L1335 there is a McDougall. With there being a Scottish surname amongst the W2 group as well as its relatively young age, is it possible that they could have a Scottish origin?
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rms2
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« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2013, 09:50:03 PM »

I notice that amongst the Wales II group that has tested positive for L1335 there is a McDougall. With there being a Scottish surname amongst the W2 group as well as its relatively young age, is it possible that they could have a Scottish origin?

It seems to me that is likely and that the connection may go back to the Yr Hen Ogledd, the Men of the North:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd

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Albannach
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« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2013, 10:31:31 PM »

I notice that amongst the Wales II group that has tested positive for L1335 there is a McDougall. With there being a Scottish surname amongst the W2 group as well as its relatively young age, is it possible that they could have a Scottish origin?

It seems to me that is likely and that the connection may go back to the Yr Hen Ogledd, the Men of the North:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd



I'm aware of the possible Yr Hen Ogledd link but the Surname McDougall has it's origins in 12th century Scotland which is later than the time of Yr Hen Ogledd. What I mean is it possible that the Wales II group are descended from a Scottish settler post 12 century? and if not why does somebody with the Scottish surname McDougall which came in to being in the 12th century belong to Wales II?.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 10:32:14 PM by Albannach » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2013, 08:01:33 AM »

I notice that amongst the Wales II group that has tested positive for L1335 there is a McDougall. With there being a Scottish surname amongst the W2 group as well as its relatively young age, is it possible that they could have a Scottish origin?

It seems to me that is likely and that the connection may go back to the Yr Hen Ogledd, the Men of the North:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd



I'm aware of the possible Yr Hen Ogledd link but the Surname McDougall has it's origins in 12th century Scotland which is later than the time of Yr Hen Ogledd. What I mean is it possible that the Wales II group are descended from a Scottish settler post 12 century? and if not why does somebody with the Scottish surname McDougall which came in to being in the 12th century belong to Wales II?.

But that's not what I meant. Certainly you realize that McDougall could be descended from a y-dna ancestor among the Votadini of the old kingdom of Gododdin who did not go south with the Yr Hen Ogledd yet who was related to someone who did?

Anything is possible, I guess, so a post-12th century Scottish settler in Wales is possible. It doesn't seem likely to me, however.
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rms2
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« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2013, 08:42:42 AM »

I notice that amongst the Wales II group that has tested positive for L1335 there is a McDougall. With there being a Scottish surname amongst the W2 group as well as its relatively young age, is it possible that they could have a Scottish origin?

It seems to me that is likely and that the connection may go back to the Yr Hen Ogledd, the Men of the North:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd



I'm aware of the possible Yr Hen Ogledd link but the Surname McDougall has it's origins in 12th century Scotland which is later than the time of Yr Hen Ogledd. What I mean is it possible that the Wales II group are descended from a Scottish settler post 12 century? and if not why does somebody with the Scottish surname McDougall which came in to being in the 12th century belong to Wales II?.

But that's not what I meant. Certainly you realize that McDougall could be descended from a y-dna ancestor among the Votadini of the old kingdom of Gododdin who did not go south with the Yr Hen Ogledd yet who was related to someone who did?

Anything is possible, I guess, so a post-12th century Scottish settler in Wales is possible. It doesn't seem likely to me, however.

I guess a lot depends on how old the Wales II cluster is. If it is relatively young, then I suppose an origin more recent than the Yr Hen Ogledd is likely, but in that case the place of origin could be Wales, as well as Scotland.

The Scots Cluster folks all appear to be L1065+, while the Wales II folks do not.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2013, 01:35:47 AM »

I notice that amongst the Wales II group that has tested positive for L1335 there is a McDougall. With there being a Scottish surname amongst the W2 group as well as its relatively young age, is it possible that they could have a Scottish origin?



It seems to me that is likely and that the connection may go back to the Yr Hen Ogledd, the Men of the North:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd

I'm aware of the possible Yr Hen Ogledd link but the Surname McDougall has it's origins in 12th century Scotland which is later than the time of Yr Hen Ogledd. What I mean is it possible that the Wales II group are descended from a Scottish settler post 12 century? and if not why does somebody with the Scottish surname McDougall which came in to being in the 12th century belong to Wales II?.

But that's not what I meant. Certainly you realize that McDougall could be descended from a y-dna ancestor among the Votadini of the old kingdom of Gododdin who did not go south with the Yr Hen Ogledd yet who was related to someone who did?

Anything is possible, I guess, so a post-12th century Scottish settler in Wales is possible. It doesn't seem likely to me, however.

I tend to agree with Richard on this. One does not a trend make and the Wales II people are clearly dominantly from Wales. McDougal is the exception and so the argument is just one of exception. I looked at the McDougal project and he is not grouped, but is one of a kind which kind of indicates we don't know much about how that lineage got its surname.
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« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2013, 05:24:48 AM »

I'd also point out that McDougal is very much a name of the Viking era. After all it shares the same root as the names McDowell, and Doyle

eg. son of Dubhghall -- Black Foreigner eg. Dane-- though in the context of the 11th-12th century in Irish speaking world this had became a personal name and wasn't necessary representative of ethnicity.

Given amount of movement around the irish sea during this period it wouldn't surprise me if a "Welsh II" type might have ended up in Scotland, no more then someone who was Z255+/L159.2+ showing up there either.

-Paul
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mcg11
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« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2013, 11:00:47 AM »

There are many events in England and Ireland that may have caused tribal displacements.  The most momentous may have been the Romans conquering belgic Gaul and displacing those tribes into southern England.  Then came the Roman invasion of England displacing tribes to Scotland and Ireland;  The U'Neills and there drive up the middle of Ireland; The departure of the Roman legions from Britain;  The invasion of the Scottis, Angles, Jutes, Vikings and finally Normans. Note also there was a substantial migration from Wales to Brittany after the Romans left. 

Add in periodic plagues and famines and you mix everything up quite well.  The DalRiada story is about one of these displacements.  Why is it a fantasy tale?  It makes as much sense as any of the other "historical" stories.

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Albannach
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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2013, 05:31:58 AM »

Just had my result back from FTDNA as suspected I'm L1065+ which means a large bulk of people with the McLaren surname including the clan chief are also L1065+. What is the TMRCA for L1065?
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mcg11
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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2013, 07:05:36 AM »

Within the accuracy that these things can be estimated; both Jost and I estimate 800 to 1000 AD.  If so it most likely supports the Dal Riada scenario; with descent from MacAlpin?

I would add that there appears to be another convergence c. 400 - 600 AD.  I wouldn't be surprised if there is another SNP to be found.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 10:01:20 AM by mcg11 » Logged
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