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Author Topic: ScotlandsDNA Says L1335 (S530) Means Descent from the Picts  (Read 5409 times)
rms2
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« on: April 06, 2013, 12:21:52 PM »

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/DNA-marker-shows-Northern-Irish-descendents-of-Pict-tribe-of-painted-warriors-who-battled-the-Romans-201450251.html

I like Dr. Wilson. He has always been nice to me, so I am not trying to be critical. I just wonder why he believes this to be the case.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 12:22:13 PM by rms2 » Logged

Jdean
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2013, 12:57:17 PM »

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/DNA-marker-shows-Northern-Irish-descendents-of-Pict-tribe-of-painted-warriors-who-battled-the-Romans-201450251.html

I like Dr. Wilson. He has always been nice to me, so I am not trying to be critical. I just wonder why he believes this to be the case.

I can't help thinking it's a way of drumming up trade for his company, think your Scottish well we can prove it !!
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2013, 01:23:31 PM »

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/DNA-marker-shows-Northern-Irish-descendents-of-Pict-tribe-of-painted-warriors-who-battled-the-Romans-201450251.html

I like Dr. Wilson. He has always been nice to me, so I am not trying to be critical. I just wonder why he believes this to be the case.

I can't help thinking it's a way of drumming up trade for his company, think your Scottish well we can prove it !!

It probably doesn't hurt the trade, that's for sure, but a lot of Scots will be disappointed when they turn out to be L1335-.
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Jdean
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2013, 01:39:47 PM »

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/DNA-marker-shows-Northern-Irish-descendents-of-Pict-tribe-of-painted-warriors-who-battled-the-Romans-201450251.html

I like Dr. Wilson. He has always been nice to me, so I am not trying to be critical. I just wonder why he believes this to be the case.

I can't help thinking it's a way of drumming up trade for his company, think your Scottish well we can prove it !!

It probably doesn't hurt the trade, that's for sure, but a lot of Scots will be disappointed when they turn out to be L1335-.

And without STR results the conclusions will always be debatable anyway !!
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Bren123
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2013, 07:51:39 PM »


I can't help thinking it's a way of drumming up trade for his company, think your Scottish well we can prove it !!

Isn't that true for all these gene testing companies?
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LDJ
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2013, 09:45:48 PM »

If L1335 is Pictish doesn't it seem strange that so many people with clan names including  clan chiefs are L1335+ and therefore supposedly Pictish yet belong to clans that claim a Dalriadic descent?

My Clan for example is McLaren and we trace our descent back to Loairn Mac Erc King of Dalriada, yet our chief is L1335+

I'm not convinced L1335 is Pictish.
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2013, 03:04:59 AM »

It would be nice to see some raw data from them instead of a press-release. For example:

  • What is the geographic distrubition of L1335 in Scotland?
  • If L1335+ makes up 10% of men in scotland what are the other major haplogroups?

Given that L1335 is a subclade of DF13 if it's really a SNP that arose in a pictish population then it shows at the least that the Picts were closely related to surronding "peoples" who we know spoke one form or another of a Celtic language (Brythonic of Goidelic -- given dominance of DF13 clades in said populations)

-Paul
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mcg11
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2013, 07:52:26 AM »

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+.  In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection).  The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

These clans are all descendants of the Belgic tribes which emigrated to southern Ireland and England c. 50 BC, being driven from their homeland by the Romans.

I would strongly question any Pictic ethnicity for these clans.  Note the Campbells come into the picture here also as a Belgic clan possibly resettling originally in Wales?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 08:22:27 AM by mcg11 » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2013, 08:18:08 AM »

It would be nice to see some raw data from them instead of a press-release. For example:

  • What is the geographic distrubition of L1335 in Scotland?
  • If L1335+ makes up 10% of men in scotland what are the other major haplogroups?

Given that L1335 is a subclade of DF13 if it's really a SNP that arose in a pictish population then it shows at the least that the Picts were closely related to surronding "peoples" who we know spoke one form or another of a Celtic language (Brythonic of Goidelic -- given dominance of DF13 clades in said populations)

-Paul
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I agree, and I think your questions are excellent.

Is L1335 most frequent in the old homelands of the Picts? If not, then why should we believe it is a Pictish marker?

L21 is roughly 50-60% of Scots y-dna, at least according to Busby et al. If L1335 is about 10% of Scots y-dna, that means about 80% of the L21 in Scotland is something else. I know a pretty fair proportion of our DF41 guys have Scots ancestry, as do most of the other L21+ subclades.

ScotlandsDNA needs some ancient Pictish y-dna tested L1335+ to make its case. That's not likely to happen anytime soon, since we're lucky when we get ancient y-dna tested M269+ , or any ancient y-dna test results at all.

My own suspicion is that L1335 is old enough to have been present among a number of the old Celtic tribes, and not just the Picts.
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2013, 03:18:05 PM »

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+.  In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection).  The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

But L1335+ is CTS4466- !

Kind regards,

Morten
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2013, 03:25:37 PM »

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+.  In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection).  The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

But L1335+ is CTS4466- !

Kind regards,

Morten

The question is though how old is CTS4466 as a SNP, I could be wrong but I believe the TMRCA for South Irish cluster was on order of 1500 years. If that's the case it's quite possible that you could have one lineage in DF13 that spilt say 500BC and produced two lines. eg. one where CTS4466 would later arise in, and one where L1335 would later arise.

I'd be curious if someone would run a TMRCA calculation between the two clusters first.

-Paul
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Jdean
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2013, 04:05:14 PM »

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+.  In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection).  The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

But L1335+ is CTS4466- !

Kind regards,

Morten

The question is though how old is CTS4466 as a SNP, I could be wrong but I believe the TMRCA for South Irish cluster was on order of 1500 years. If that's the case it's quite possible that you could have one lineage in DF13 that spilt say 500BC and produced two lines. eg. one where CTS4466 would later arise in, and one where L1335 would later arise.

I'd be curious if someone would run a TMRCA calculation between the two clusters first.

-Paul
(DF41+)

Don't forget that the Scots Modal is probably quite a bit younger than L1335.

Looking quickly Scots Modal and Southern Irish only seem to share two off modal values at 111 loci, personally I don't see a connection.
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rwp
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2013, 05:05:24 PM »

The clan chieftain of Clan gregor is L1335+, L1065+.  In my work I have converged Clan Donald (R1b), Clan Gregor, MacMillan, Buchanan and possibly MacKinnon to a common ancestor c. 1000 AD. (this is the 1065 connection).  The next level of relatedness is c. 500 AD and then finally to the S. Irish c. 200 BC to 0 AD.

These clans are all descendants of the Belgic tribes which emigrated to southern Ireland and England c. 50 BC, being driven from their homeland by the Romans.

I would strongly question any Pictic ethnicity for these clans.  Note the Campbells come into the picture here also as a Belgic clan possibly resettling originally in Wales?

Would you consider adding the Clan MacLaren Project to your analysis? There are a lot of L1065 types there.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 05:07:25 PM by rwp » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2013, 02:05:09 PM »

There is a small subset of McLarens with (L1335) the typical Dal Riada signatures.  I'll check their convergence date.
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2013, 02:11:49 PM »

J Dean:  M Jost estimates that L1335 has a beginning around 250 AD+/- 500.  This suggests a Dal Riadic connection?  What do you date the scots modal to?
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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2013, 02:20:45 PM »

J Dean:  M Jost estimates that L1335 has a beginning around 250 AD+/- 500.  This suggests a Dal Riadic connection?  What do you date the scots modal to?

If memory serves correct about 1500 but you don't really have to number crunch to see it's pretty young :)
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2013, 03:46:03 PM »

My guess you are talking about something different than the scots modal.  Clan Gregor dates to the Ian Cam c. 1350.  The convergence of 1065+ is c. 1000 AD.  How do you define the Scots Modal; what kind of Scots does it contain?
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2013, 04:07:27 PM »

My guess you are talking about something different than the scots modal.  Clan Gregor dates to the Ian Cam c. 1350.  The convergence of 1065+ is c. 1000 AD.  How do you define the Scots Modal; what kind of Scots does it contain?

As I said that was from memory however 1350 and 1500 aren't exactly far apart

(Edit I was talking 1500 yrs ago, 1000 AD is too recent in my view, Scot's Modal may be young but it's not a child :)

I define the Scots modal by the off modal values

391 = 10
389-2 = 17
YCAII = 19-24
531 = 12

717 = 21
635 = 24

There are other values as well and obviously it's a cluster so you can't be rigid but they tend to pop out of the screen at you mixed in with other folk.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 04:18:00 PM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2013, 04:52:28 PM »

That makes more sense, 1500 BP is c. 500 AD; which is the time (historically) or
according to legend the Dal Riadic Scots migrated to Scotland from Ireland.  There were three clans (tribes) and they are the origin of the Scottis in Scotland (again according to legend).

I believe they were descendants of the Belgic tribes who were driven out of Gaul by the romans and settled in southern England/Ireland c. 50 BC. Note over 37 dys loci the 1065 haplotype differs from the S Irish modal by only 6 mutations. Convergence suggests they merge c. 200BC to 0 AD? 

The combined 37 dys loci modal of 1065 probably is close to the following: 13,24,14,10,11-14,12,12,12,13,13,30,18,9-10,11,11,25,15,19,30,15-15-17-17,11,12,19-24,15,15,18,17,37,-38,12,12.
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Jdean
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2013, 05:00:08 PM »

That makes more sense, 1500 BP is c. 500 AD; which is the time (historically) or
according to legend the Dal Riadic Scots migrated to Scotland from Ireland.  There were three clans (tribes) and they are the origin of the Scottis in Scotland (again according to legend).

I believe they were descendants of the Belgic tribes who were driven out of Gaul by the romans and settled in southern England/Ireland c. 50 BC. Note over 37 dys loci the 1065 haplotype differs from the S Irish modal by only 6 mutations. Convergence suggests they merge c. 200BC to 0 AD?

I did an interclade calc @ 67 using L1335 all compared against the South Irish cluster that came out at about 1000 yrs BC
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2013, 05:03:19 PM »

All my work was with the 1065 group.  What is the modality of the Scots modal relative to the 37 dys loci I worked with?
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2013, 05:13:41 PM »

All my work was with the 1065 group.  What is the modality of the Scots modal relative to the 37 dys loci I worked with?

I'm not entirely sure I know what you are asking for but if it's the first 37 modal values for the Scots cluster then this is what I calculated a few years ago.

393   =   13
390   =   24
19   =   14
391   =   10
385   =   11-14
426   =   12
388   =   12
439   =   12
389i    =   13
392   =   13
389ii    =   30
458   =   18
459   =   9-10
455   =   11
454   =   11
447   =   25
437   =   15
448   =   19
449   =   30
464   =   15-15-17-17
460   =   11
GATAH4    =   12
YCAII   =   19-24
456   =   15
607   =   15
576   =   18
570   =   17
CDY   =   37-38
442   =   12
438   =   12


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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 07:08:34 AM »

unless I've missed something, that is the STR Haplotype of L 1065?  I use Ysearch XREMB for the S Irish 37 STR's haplotype:  13,24,14,10,11,15,12,12,11,13,13,29,17,9-10,11,11,24,15,19,29,15-15-17-17,11,11,19-23,15,16,18,17,36-38, 13,12.

we now have two haplotypes which differ by 9 single step mutations.  How much time of separation do you compute between these two modals?

I did a quick estimate on the time myself and got about 1000 years, putting the S Irish/Dalriadic tie to about 0 AD. Note:  I used 2 haplotypes, if you only use 1 it is 2000 years!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 07:52:13 AM by mcg11 » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2013, 10:56:45 AM »

I'll never understand why such an intelligent person makes such simplistic remarks. Oh well it is interesting to investigate i suppose, he must have some really groundbreaking evidence.
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2013, 11:07:14 AM »

unless I've missed something, that is the STR Haplotype of L 1065?  I use Ysearch XREMB for the S Irish 37 STR's haplotype:  13,24,14,10,11,15,12,12,11,13,13,29,17,9-10,11,11,24,15,19,29,15-15-17-17,11,11,19-23,15,16,18,17,36-38, 13,12.

we now have two haplotypes which differ by 9 single step mutations.  How much time of separation do you compute between these two modals?

I did a quick estimate on the time myself and got about 1000 years, putting the S Irish/Dalriadic tie to about 0 AD. Note:  I used 2 haplotypes, if you only use 1 it is 2000 years!

Out of curiosity how did you calculate TMRCA using only one haplotype ?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 11:07:46 AM by Jdean » Logged

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