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rms2
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« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2013, 11:18:57 AM »

Two questions if I may:

Yeah, U106 arose in an L11 population, but you said it could could have been among the Bronze Age immigrants into Ireland. I don't think that is likely, and I said why.

1. And P312 arose in that same population. But is there any clear indication that these two groups (U106 and P312) can be considered to have migrated separately and via different routes ever after, as is always silently assumed ? (if you look at a SNP map for both, then the distribution over Europe is not too different between the two.)

2. (unrelated) I think to have once heard in a documentary on the subject there are 9 migrations known from the continent to the British Isles (e.g. Anglo-Saxon, Viking, etc.). Is there a reliable resource on the web that describes what is know from "classic science" about these migrations ? (most people here seem to have studied the subject in depth, so it appears a reasonable question to ask; Google wouldn't give me a reliability score.)


P312 arose in an L11 population but not necessarily in the same one as or one in close geographic proximity to the one in which U106 arose. Their distributions and centers of gravity became distinct somehow, and I believe the regions in which they achieve their greatest variance differ, as well. I don't think there is any assuming going on: P312 and U106 have distinct distributions, though there is some overlap.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 11:20:05 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2013, 05:29:19 PM »

I'm not sure we'll be able to say much about a paragroup like P312*. I wouldn't assume that all of it is DF27. It could be a mix of things with different affiliations and histories.


I agree. While recent testing indicates that somewhere around 80% of P312* (XL21,U152) is DF27+, this is undoubtedly skewed by the fact that virtually 100% of P312* in Iberia is DF27. So the percentage of  P312* which is DF27 in the British Isles is somewhat lower.

Busby's P312* would also include a smaller portion of DF19, which appears to be confined to northern Europe.

As for the P312** (XL21,U152,DF27,DF19,L238), the numbers have grown considerably in the past few months from a handful to 31. A close study suggests this is a heterogenous group, and probably consists of two or three smaller subclades with different distributions, although overwhelmingly northern.

So it might be fair to assume that nearly all P312* in Iberia is DF27, but that certainly wouldn't be accurate for P312* in Britain.

Interesting.  Do you have any statistics on this?
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« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2013, 05:56:48 PM »

The absolutely crucial thing to work out when U106 would have first arrived in the isles in any sort of numbers is WHERE was it on the continent in 2000BC, 1000BC, 500BC etc?  Only coastal groups are going to migrate to prehistoric Britain.  So there is no point in discussing land locked central European cultures like Urnfield etc. Variance as far as I am aware sees U106 as quite low in variance in Scandinavia and Holland and much higher in the east.  That would reduce the chances of U106 in England prior to very late in prehistory at the earliest.

Another factor to take into account is that archaeology from the Neolithic period to the Roman invasion indicates that even southern and eastern England tended to be more connected with the area from Brittany to Holland and not much with the area further east.  There is evidence that in the Belgium U106 really drops at the Dutch-French boundary despite nearly 2000 years of being neighbours.  It should be noted that the likely earliest area of both Germanic and of U106 lay in the northern European Plain and there is very little evidence of movement from that area into Gaul before 200BC.  The area between Holland and Poland was a real backwater for a long time and it is not surprising that very few gene flow west came from that area. 

I think based on current evidence that the odds are that U106 was overwhelmingly spead into Britain and the continent west of the Rhine by Germanic peoples.  The Belgae had some Germanic tribes among them so it cannot be ruled out that a trickle of U106 people may have entered Britain with the Belgae and some more with the Germanic element among the Romans. However, even this does not take away the essential pattern that U106 falls away at the stronger Celtic survival areas in the isles and also at the Germanic-Romance divide on the continent and the link between U106 and Germanic seems very strong indeed. 

 
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« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2013, 08:58:16 PM »

I'm not sure we'll be able to say much about a paragroup like P312*. I wouldn't assume that all of it is DF27. It could be a mix of things with different affiliations and histories.


I agree. While recent testing indicates that somewhere around 80% of P312* (XL21,U152) is DF27+, this is undoubtedly skewed by the fact that virtually 100% of P312* in Iberia is DF27. So the percentage of  P312* which is DF27 in the British Isles is somewhat lower.

Busby's P312* would also include a smaller portion of DF19, which appears to be confined to northern Europe.

As for the P312** (XL21,U152,DF27,DF19,L238), the numbers have grown considerably in the past few months from a handful to 31. A close study suggests this is a heterogenous group, and probably consists of two or three smaller subclades with different distributions, although overwhelmingly northern.

So it might be fair to assume that nearly all P312* in Iberia is DF27, but that certainly wouldn't be accurate for P312* in Britain.

Interesting.  Do you have any statistics on this?

To which of my statements do you refer? The prevalence of DF27 among Iberian P312* (XU152,L21)? If so, I can tell you that all but one of the numerous P312* (XL21,U152) in the P312 & Subclades Project with Iberian origins who have tested for DF27 have got positive results. The sole exception (now P312**) says his ancestor was a Flemish merchant who settled in Spain in the 17th century.
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« Reply #79 on: April 11, 2013, 08:06:07 AM »

I'll post something i posted on another forum (it's visual, i didn't make the map but i made the pie charts). One thing i think is key is the fact that R1b-U106 is higher in Eastern and south-eastern England than in Norway and Denmark (generally), but it is lower than that in the Netherlands and Frisia (where it peaks at around 42% of all lineages). This to me indicates that as well as geneflow from Denmark and northern Germany, there was also geneflow from the Netherlands, this is also supported by place-name evidence, and linguistic evidence (Old English being an Ingvaeonic language and a brother of Frisian). Indeed, after watching a number of videos about Ostfriesland in particular, although their language is different, the manner of their speech is very similar to rural English speech even now.

Anyway:



Also remember that POBI's results at the 2012 summer exhibition showed i think three major things about lowland Britain (covering much of what is now England).

1) They form a major cluster, due to shared ancestry and a lot of geneflow within this group.
2) The Germanic ancestry for this group overall seems to be in the 50-60% region, and is mostly shared in a region that encompasses the Flemish through to the Danish.*
3) The pre-Germanic ancestry in lowland Britain seems to be split almost evenly between Gaulish like DNA and Irish like DNA.**

*This is not taking into account regional variation within this cluster, which is visible in Y-DNA and also in autosomal DNA using admixture programs. I would say it varies somewhat between regions (although not by extreme amounts) although they cluster together because within the context of the British Isles, they are more similar to each other than to other groups included. It is also interesting because the North-Sea coastal region going from the Flemish through to the Danish are autosomally most similar to the English (or at least eastern English).

**This is also visible in the Y-DNA through the higher rates of P312* and U152, the majority of which is probably Celtic, although we cannot rule out a Germanic origin for some of it at least, as it (as well as L21) has a reasonable presence in Scandinavia, although it is likely more common there now than it was 1500 years ago.

I would also include this quote from Alex Woolf in  'Apartheid and Economics in Anglo-Saxon England' (about Ine's law code, but relevant to this entire red cluster potentially). It quite neatly explains how we find varying degrees of genetic heritage of Britons in England, but little linguistic or cultural heritage:

'The long term effects of Britons being valued at about half the wergeld of their English counterparts was that, in the normal course of things, large amounts of property would gradually pass from the British community to the English. If, for example, a hypothetical English and British noblement each owning five hides of land got into a series of disputes with one another and were dealt with fairly by the courts, sometimes giving judgement in favour of the one and sometimes of the other, then all compensations paid by the Briton to the Englishman would be twice the value of those paid to him by his opponent. The end result would be that the property and finally the land would pass to the Englishman.
By giving the Britons protection under the law and by preserving their basic civil rights - indeed, by giving them access to the courts, the Anglo-Saxons were able to reduce the risk of wholesale and persistent resistance which a policy of naked aggression would inevitably have aroused. The likelihood would be that in the short term the system would protect most individual Britons and that the erosion of their economic base would generally be so gradual as to be barely perceived on the basis of individual experience. It is interesting to note that Lex Salica, the Frankish law code drawn p in precisely those territories where the Frankish language, religion and cultural identity replaced Gallo-Roman, utilised a precisely similar mechanism of apartheid. In the long run individual British households would, one by one, become bankrupt and break down, with children being sold into slavery or sent to live with relatives as prospect-less hangers-on. The apartheid of the law codes would also doubtless be compounded by the partial patronage of redistributive chiefdoms. Whilst Britons might be gafolgeldas, it is unlikely that many of them were beneficiaries of royal largesse. In comparison to English districts, British areas would be regions of high production and low consumption, tribute and disproportionate legal costs flowing out and few gifts flowing in. The lack of opportunities for young British males to become retainers or chieftains would, perhaps, have encouraged them to leave for British controlled kingdoms or led to increasing poverty as inherited farms became sub-divided between co-heirs. In this long drawn out process of economic decline, many individual Britons may have found themselves drifting into Anglo-Saxon households, as slaves, hangers-on, brides and so forth, but they would have come into these communities as one among many. Their ability to impact on the cultural or linguistic identity of the community would have been minimal, and such households would have become ethnic sausage machines, recycling stray biological material in such a way that it would not carry its ethnicity with it into the next generation.'

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« Reply #80 on: April 11, 2013, 08:20:58 AM »

Honestly, I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room, namely, the large influx of Anglo-Saxons during the immediate post-Roman Period from areas rich in U106, followed by a similar influx during the Viking Period, again from areas rich in U106.

The spotty appearance of U106 in the Celtic Fringe countries can also be accounted for by the historical advent mainly of the English but perhaps a bit earlier of the Vikings and the Normans. That is why U106 is most frequent where the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings prevailed in England (Angle Land).

We can agree to disagree, but I don't think there is much reason to believe U106 made it to the Isles before the Iron Age. I'm guessing the earliest U106 in Britain came with the Belgae in the 1st century B.C.

This is something that baffles me somewhat as well. Although i admire people investigating all avenues, it should be the argument that is hardest to disprove with current evidence that takes precedence, which is why i am confused about the stance (particular of the media) about these periods in history. People tend to forget that linguistically, the main comparable scenario is the settlement of North America by Europeans, now i might be laughed at today for arguing that modern North Americans are mostly descended from the American Natives.

I know it is not entirely comparable historically, the technology and forms of settlement were somewhat different, but we can at least see that this sort of thing does happen, quite regularly in fact. Even outside the human world, the grey Squirrel has now pushed the red Squirrel to the far reaches of the British Isles in just a couple of centuries, while i don't see much real evidence for pitched battles between grey Squirrels and red Squirrels. (Ok, a joke).

I think Y-DNA is very useful in this regard, because it doesn't necessarily correlate with autosomal ancestry completely, and seems to give a better picture of more recent history in some cases.

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« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2013, 01:46:29 PM »

Honestly, I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room, namely, the large influx of Anglo-Saxons during the immediate post-Roman Period from areas rich in U106, followed by a similar influx during the Viking Period, again from areas rich in U106.

The spotty appearance of U106 in the Celtic Fringe countries can also be accounted for by the historical advent mainly of the English but perhaps a bit earlier of the Vikings and the Normans. That is why U106 is most frequent where the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings prevailed in England (Angle Land).

We can agree to disagree, but I don't think there is much reason to believe U106 made it to the Isles before the Iron Age. I'm guessing the earliest U106 in Britain came with the Belgae in the 1st century B.C.

This is something that baffles me somewhat as well. Although i admire people investigating all avenues, it should be the argument that is hardest to disprove with current evidence that takes precedence, which is why i am confused about the stance (particular of the media) about these periods in history. People tend to forget that linguistically, the main comparable scenario is the settlement of North America by Europeans, now i might be laughed at today for arguing that modern North Americans are mostly descended from the American Natives.

I know it is not entirely comparable historically, the technology and forms of settlement were somewhat different, but we can at least see that this sort of thing does happen, quite regularly in fact. Even outside the human world, the grey Squirrel has now pushed the red Squirrel to the far reaches of the British Isles in just a couple of centuries, while i don't see much real evidence for pitched battles between grey Squirrels and red Squirrels. (Ok, a joke).

I think Y-DNA is very useful in this regard, because it doesn't necessarily correlate with autosomal ancestry completely, and seems to give a better picture of more recent history in some cases.



I really like the squirrel analogy.  I personally think you can never have too many pie charts or analogies.
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« Reply #82 on: April 11, 2013, 03:33:31 PM »

The absolutely crucial thing to work out when U106 would have first arrived in the isles in any sort of numbers is WHERE was it on the continent in 2000BC, 1000BC, 500BC etc?  Only coastal groups are going to migrate to prehistoric Britain.  So there is no point in discussing land locked central European cultures like Urnfield etc. Variance as far as I am aware sees U106 as quite low in variance in Scandinavia and Holland and much higher in the east.  That would reduce the chances of U106 in England prior to very late in prehistory at the earliest.

Thanks. As always you give a thorough account of the prehistory and archaeology.

I wonder if any posters could explain the difference between variance and diversity? And how is variance calculated?
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« Reply #83 on: April 11, 2013, 08:39:48 PM »

Honestly, I think you are ignoring the elephant in the room, namely, the large influx of Anglo-Saxons during the immediate post-Roman Period from areas rich in U106, followed by a similar influx during the Viking Period, again from areas rich in U106.

The spotty appearance of U106 in the Celtic Fringe countries can also be accounted for by the historical advent mainly of the English but perhaps a bit earlier of the Vikings and the Normans. That is why U106 is most frequent where the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings prevailed in England (Angle Land).

We can agree to disagree, but I don't think there is much reason to believe U106 made it to the Isles before the Iron Age. I'm guessing the earliest U106 in Britain came with the Belgae in the 1st century B.C.

This is something that baffles me somewhat as well. Although i admire people investigating all avenues, it should be the argument that is hardest to disprove with current evidence that takes precedence, which is why i am confused about the stance (particular of the media) about these periods in history. People tend to forget that linguistically, the main comparable scenario is the settlement of North America by Europeans, now i might be laughed at today for arguing that modern North Americans are mostly descended from the American Natives.

I know it is not entirely comparable historically, the technology and forms of settlement were somewhat different, but we can at least see that this sort of thing does happen, quite regularly in fact. Even outside the human world, the grey Squirrel has now pushed the red Squirrel to the far reaches of the British Isles in just a couple of centuries, while i don't see much real evidence for pitched battles between grey Squirrels and red Squirrels. (Ok, a joke).

I think Y-DNA is very useful in this regard, because it doesn't necessarily correlate with autosomal ancestry completely, and seems to give a better picture of more recent history in some cases.



I really like the squirrel analogy.  I personally think you can never have too many pie charts or analogies.

I like the squirrel analogy, too, especially since red squirrels (standing in for the Celts in this case) are better looking than gray squirrels. ;-)
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« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2013, 07:24:23 AM »


I like the squirrel analogy, too, especially since red squirrels (standing in for the Celts in this case) are better looking than gray squirrels. ;-)

American grey squirrels coming in here eating all our nuts, destroying our trees grrr ;-)

As an aside all the grey squirrels in Ireland are descended from 8-12 squirrels presented as a wedding gift at Castleforbes in Longford in 1911. They've proceed to expand to cover more then half the country, the Shannon has helped keep them out of most of the west.

Of course what's been noticed is that areas where Pine Martens exist that the Red Squirrel survives. Seems it's easier for Pine Martens to catch grey's then red's. This has been noticed in Britain as well where the Pine Marten is gradually expanding it's range.

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« Reply #85 on: April 13, 2013, 09:08:55 PM »


I like the squirrel analogy, too, especially since red squirrels (standing in for the Celts in this case) are better looking than gray squirrels. ;-)

American grey squirrels coming in here eating all our nuts, destroying our trees grrr ;-)

As an aside all the grey squirrels in Ireland are descended from 8-12 squirrels presented as a wedding gift at Castleforbes in Longford in 1911. They've proceed to expand to cover more then half the country, the Shannon has helped keep them out of most of the west.

Of course what's been noticed is that areas where Pine Martens exist that the Red Squirrel survives. Seems it's easier for Pine Martens to catch grey's then red's. This has been noticed in Britain as well where the Pine Marten is gradually expanding it's range.

-Paul
(DF41+)

My wife hates squirrels, or at least the ones that inhabit the row of trees behind our back fence. They raid our fruit trees and our blackberry and blueberry bushes. They absolutely are not afraid of our little miniature Dachshund, Daisy.

I kind of like the squirrels.

There is a variety of solid black "gray" squirrel that one sees from time to time. They are more common at the northern end of their range, which seems odd, but I've seen them here in Virginia, too. I saw a bunch of them up in Ontario last time we were there.
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« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2013, 10:50:18 PM »


I like the squirrel analogy, too, especially since red squirrels (standing in for the Celts in this case) are better looking than gray squirrels. ;-)

American grey squirrels coming in here eating all our nuts, destroying our trees grrr ;-)

As an aside all the grey squirrels in Ireland are descended from 8-12 squirrels presented as a wedding gift at Castleforbes in Longford in 1911. They've proceed to expand to cover more then half the country, the Shannon has helped keep them out of most of the west.

Of course what's been noticed is that areas where Pine Martens exist that the Red Squirrel survives. Seems it's easier for Pine Martens to catch grey's then red's. This has been noticed in Britain as well where the Pine Marten is gradually expanding it's range.

-Paul
(DF41+)

My wife hates squirrels, or at least the ones that inhabit the row of trees behind our back fence. They raid our fruit trees and our blackberry and blueberry bushes. They absolutely are not afraid of our little miniature Dachshund, Daisy.

I kind of like the squirrels.

There is a variety of solid black "gray" squirrel that one sees from time to time. They are more common at the northern end of their range, which seems odd, but I've seen them here in Virginia, too. I saw a bunch of them up in Ontario last time we were there.

I've heard of these black squirrels, but I was thinking it was the Fox-Squirrel's that were occasionaly black? I guess it occurs in both.

My German-Shepherd has caught and eaten around ten, maybe more, in the past few months!
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« Reply #87 on: April 14, 2013, 07:28:36 AM »


I like the squirrel analogy, too, especially since red squirrels (standing in for the Celts in this case) are better looking than gray squirrels. ;-)

American grey squirrels coming in here eating all our nuts, destroying our trees grrr ;-)

As an aside all the grey squirrels in Ireland are descended from 8-12 squirrels presented as a wedding gift at Castleforbes in Longford in 1911. They've proceed to expand to cover more then half the country, the Shannon has helped keep them out of most of the west.

Of course what's been noticed is that areas where Pine Martens exist that the Red Squirrel survives. Seems it's easier for Pine Martens to catch grey's then red's. This has been noticed in Britain as well where the Pine Marten is gradually expanding it's range.

-Paul
(DF41+)

My wife hates squirrels, or at least the ones that inhabit the row of trees behind our back fence. They raid our fruit trees and our blackberry and blueberry bushes. They absolutely are not afraid of our little miniature Dachshund, Daisy.

I kind of like the squirrels.

There is a variety of solid black "gray" squirrel that one sees from time to time. They are more common at the northern end of their range, which seems odd, but I've seen them here in Virginia, too. I saw a bunch of them up in Ontario last time we were there.

I've heard of these black squirrels, but I was thinking it was the Fox-Squirrel's that were occasionaly black? I guess it occurs in both.

My German-Shepherd has caught and eaten around ten, maybe more, in the past few months!

Your Shepherd is a much better hunter than our little Mini-Dachshund! She chases them, but I don't think she really wants to catch them or would even know what to do if she did.
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« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2013, 05:42:47 PM »

Another thing I would throw into the ring is that most of the intense cultural contact between Britain and the continent in the period 2000BC to the 400AD was with the area west of the Rhine.  There was extremely close contact between southern England and the channel opposite as far east as Belgium and southern Holland (the Hilversum culture etc) almost to a degree that extremely similar cultures were developed.  This connection being with the area to the west of the Rhine continued right through to the Belgic era.  I think there is evidence that U106 mainly crosses the Rhine with the Germanic languages when you look at Romance-Germanic border where it has crept over the Rhine in Belgium.  I think there is a very strong case that U106 is overwhelmngly Germanic in origin when found in the isles and west of the Rhine on the continent.  However, that said I am not sure that L21 was dominant in southern Britain and it may be best to look at the NE France, French speaking Belgium areas as a better hint at what pre-Roman SE England looked like in say 100BC.
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« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2013, 07:27:25 PM »

There is a variety of solid black "gray" squirrel that one sees from time to time. They are more common at the northern end of their range, which seems odd, but I've seen them here in Virginia, too. I saw a bunch of them up in Ontario last time we were there.

I've heard of these black squirrels, but I was thinking it was the Fox-Squirrel's that were occasionaly black?

The black squirrels in Northern VA, DC and its MD suburbs descend from a few brought by Canadian Boy Scouts to a Camporee or something, I believe about 80 years ago.  Details are known, but I don't know them.  There was a Smithsonian project to study them.  They are just a melanistic variety of gray squirrel.
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« Reply #90 on: April 14, 2013, 08:13:35 PM »

There is a variety of solid black "gray" squirrel that one sees from time to time. They are more common at the northern end of their range, which seems odd, but I've seen them here in Virginia, too. I saw a bunch of them up in Ontario last time we were there.

I've heard of these black squirrels, but I was thinking it was the Fox-Squirrel's that were occasionaly black?

The black squirrels in Northern VA, DC and its MD suburbs descend from a few brought by Canadian Boy Scouts to a Camporee or something, I believe about 80 years ago.  Details are known, but I don't know them.  There was a Smithsonian project to study them.  They are just a melanistic variety of gray squirrel.

They are edible as well.
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« Reply #91 on: April 14, 2013, 08:19:45 PM »

Another thing I would throw into the ring is that most of the intense cultural contact between Britain and the continent in the period 2000BC to the 400AD was with the area west of the Rhine.  There was extremely close contact between southern England and the channel opposite as far east as Belgium and southern Holland (the Hilversum culture etc) almost to a degree that extremely similar cultures were developed.  This connection being with the area to the west of the Rhine continued right through to the Belgic era.  I think there is evidence that U106 mainly crosses the Rhine with the Germanic languages when you look at Romance-Germanic border where it has crept over the Rhine in Belgium.  I think there is a very strong case that U106 is overwhelmngly Germanic in origin when found in the isles and west of the Rhine on the continent.  However, that said I am not sure that L21 was dominant in southern Britain and it may be best to look at the NE France, French speaking Belgium areas as a better hint at what pre-Roman SE England looked like in say 100BC.

There has been a long history, and I am sure pre-historic, as well, of tribes leaving the Rhine delta due to periodic flooding.  The Cimbrones and Tuetones fled the eastern side of the delta, traveled south east into Europe and then doubled back into Western Europe.  I wonder how many tribes might have fled this area and struck out for Britain?  It's quite possible this is how the Belgae ended up moving down into Belgium.
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« Reply #92 on: April 14, 2013, 08:54:21 PM »

Another thing I would throw into the ring is that most of the intense cultural contact between Britain and the continent in the period 2000BC to the 400AD was with the area west of the Rhine.  There was extremely close contact between southern England and the channel opposite as far east as Belgium and southern Holland (the Hilversum culture etc) almost to a degree that extremely similar cultures were developed.  This connection being with the area to the west of the Rhine continued right through to the Belgic era.  I think there is evidence that U106 mainly crosses the Rhine with the Germanic languages when you look at Romance-Germanic border where it has crept over the Rhine in Belgium.  I think there is a very strong case that U106 is overwhelmngly Germanic in origin when found in the isles and west of the Rhine on the continent.  However, that said I am not sure that L21 was dominant in southern Britain and it may be best to look at the NE France, French speaking Belgium areas as a better hint at what pre-Roman SE England looked like in say 100BC.

This is a good point, for example Normandy has known areas of significant Danish settlement, and perhaps sporadic Frankish settlement, yet only has around 8% or so R1b-U106 i think it was, this is why i have to agree here in that while i think there probably was U106 in Britain before any Germanic tribes arrived in force, it was probably only a few percent, i doubt more than 5%. I also agree with your other statement about L21 being lower - Despite the fact that R1b-U106 in south-west and north-west England is not much lower than in the far east and south-east, L21 is much higher in these regions. Although Germanic settlement was likely somewhat weaker in these regions, that eastern England has around 15% or less L21 would suggest to me that L21 was probably not more than 40% in this area, 50% at the absolute maximum - But given that L21 has probably increased in this area in the last few centuries at least, i would think it was more like 40% max (I think L21 in Normandy is somewhat similar to this amount? In Brittany it is 50%+ isn't it?) Especially given the high levels of both U152 and P312. Also POBI showed that in most of England the Celtic proportion was about 50/50 Irish-like and French-like, that to me clearly shows that the Celtic peoples of lowland Britain were somewhere between Gaulish and Brittonic peoples genetically.  Also the people of northern France today are more similar to people from the British Isles and some other areas of NW Europe than they are to some other areas in France, autosomally.
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« Reply #93 on: April 15, 2013, 01:56:52 PM »


Despite the fact that R1b-U106 in south-west and north-west England is not much lower than in the far east and south-east, L21 is much higher in these regions.

Bear in mind that the Busby sample for SW England was Exeter. Busby didn't sample Cornwall so it may be that U106 is lower in Cornwall than in Devon - quite possible given the history. Also, NW England wasn't sampled by Busby either because Leeds was mistakenly put in the NW region (geographic inaccuracy by the Busby researchers). Again I would expect Lancashire and Cumbria to have a greater Celtic survival but unfortunately the Busby data doesn't help us with this.

Quote
Also POBI showed that in most of England the Celtic proportion was about 50/50 Irish-like and French-like, that to me clearly shows that the Celtic peoples of lowland Britain were somewhere between Gaulish and Brittonic peoples genetically

I didn't see that 50/50 Celtic proportion as Irish and French when I looked at the POBI project? Where did you read that, was it based on Y-DNA?
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SEJJ
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« Reply #94 on: April 15, 2013, 02:05:10 PM »


Despite the fact that R1b-U106 in south-west and north-west England is not much lower than in the far east and south-east, L21 is much higher in these regions.

Bear in mind that the Busby sample for SW England was Exeter. Busby didn't sample Cornwall so it may be that U106 is lower in Cornwall than in Devon - quite possible given the history. Also, NW England wasn't sampled by Busby either because Leeds was mistakenly put in the NW region (geographic inaccuracy by the Busby researchers). Again I would expect Lancashire and Cumbria to have a greater Celtic survival but unfortunately the Busby data doesn't help us with this.

Quote
Also POBI showed that in most of England the Celtic proportion was about 50/50 Irish-like and French-like, that to me clearly shows that the Celtic peoples of lowland Britain were somewhere between Gaulish and Brittonic peoples genetically

I didn't see that 50/50 Celtic proportion as Irish and French when I looked at the POBI project? Where did you read that, was it based on Y-DNA?


Yes good points about Busby's data, i keep forgetting that. You are most likely correct there.

It was on the actual display they had at the summer exhibition, one colour was representing Ireland, another representing France. Of the Celtic proportion in much of England, it was split about 50/50 between the Irish-like and the French-like. There should be a couple of pictures of it somewhere, although i don't have them myself i might try to find them.
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avalon
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« Reply #95 on: April 15, 2013, 02:26:05 PM »


Despite the fact that R1b-U106 in south-west and north-west England is not much lower than in the far east and south-east, L21 is much higher in these regions.

Bear in mind that the Busby sample for SW England was Exeter. Busby didn't sample Cornwall so it may be that U106 is lower in Cornwall than in Devon - quite possible given the history. Also, NW England wasn't sampled by Busby either because Leeds was mistakenly put in the NW region (geographic inaccuracy by the Busby researchers). Again I would expect Lancashire and Cumbria to have a greater Celtic survival but unfortunately the Busby data doesn't help us with this.

Quote
Also POBI showed that in most of England the Celtic proportion was about 50/50 Irish-like and French-like, that to me clearly shows that the Celtic peoples of lowland Britain were somewhere between Gaulish and Brittonic peoples genetically

I didn't see that 50/50 Celtic proportion as Irish and French when I looked at the POBI project? Where did you read that, was it based on Y-DNA?


Yes good points about Busby's data, i keep forgetting that. You are most likely correct there.

It was on the actual display they had at the summer exhibition, one colour was representing Ireland, another representing France. Of the Celtic proportion in much of England, it was split about 50/50 between the Irish-like and the French-like. There should be a couple of pictures of it somewhere, although i don't have them myself i might try to find them.

Thanks

I remember reading a comment somewhere that North Wales was genetically close to Ireland but that South Wales and Cornwall were more like France.
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« Reply #96 on: April 15, 2013, 04:00:00 PM »


Despite the fact that R1b-U106 in south-west and north-west England is not much lower than in the far east and south-east, L21 is much higher in these regions.

Bear in mind that the Busby sample for SW England was Exeter. Busby didn't sample Cornwall so it may be that U106 is lower in Cornwall than in Devon - quite possible given the history. Also, NW England wasn't sampled by Busby either because Leeds was mistakenly put in the NW region (geographic inaccuracy by the Busby researchers). Again I would expect Lancashire and Cumbria to have a greater Celtic survival but unfortunately the Busby data doesn't help us with this.

Quote
Also POBI showed that in most of England the Celtic proportion was about 50/50 Irish-like and French-like, that to me clearly shows that the Celtic peoples of lowland Britain were somewhere between Gaulish and Brittonic peoples genetically

I didn't see that 50/50 Celtic proportion as Irish and French when I looked at the POBI project? Where did you read that, was it based on Y-DNA?


Yes good points about Busby's data, i keep forgetting that. You are most likely correct there.

It was on the actual display they had at the summer exhibition, one colour was representing Ireland, another representing France. Of the Celtic proportion in much of England, it was split about 50/50 between the Irish-like and the French-like. There should be a couple of pictures of it somewhere, although i don't have them myself i might try to find them.

Thanks

I remember reading a comment somewhere that North Wales was genetically close to Ireland but that South Wales and Cornwall were more like France.

Yes actually the French-like DNA peaks in the Cornish if i remember correctly, according to POBI.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #97 on: April 15, 2013, 06:22:44 PM »

Certainly from everything I know about the isles in the copper, bronze and iron ages I would think that in R1b terms (assuming it is correct that it does not date to before the beaker era in western Europe) southern England and SE England should look more like NE France (except the Flemish speaking area) and French speaking Belgium than the west and north of the isles.  I am not so sure that would so strongly stand out in autosomal DNA though because there was not such an east-west distinction in the isles in the early Neolithic or Mesolithic and the input of those two periods (perhaps varying in proportion by geography) probably give a common base to all isles folk that blunts differences to some degree. 
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« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2013, 12:08:58 PM »



Yes actually the French-like DNA peaks in the Cornish if i remember correctly, according to POBI.

Makes sense geographically. Cornwall is closer to Brittany (100 miles across the sea) than it is to Kent or East Anglia.

I have been reading Cunliffe's "Britain Begins" recently and he makes a big thing of the prehistoric links between Western Britain and the Atlantic coast of Europe (France, Iberia).
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