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Author Topic: Italian R-P312+/DF27-  (Read 880 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: March 03, 2013, 04:04:43 AM »

•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b   P312/S116
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b1   DF27/S250
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a   S355/Z196
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a1   S230/Z209, S356/Z220
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a1a   Z216, Z278
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a1a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a1a1   S348/Z214
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a1a1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a1a1a   M153
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a2   L176.2/S179.2
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a2*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a2a   Z262
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a2a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a2a1   M167/SRY2627
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a2b   L165/S68
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b1a3   DF17
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1b   L617
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a1b1c   L881
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1a1b2   PF6570S28/U152

In these last times, for personal reasons, I have followed less than before this matter, and I don’t know if someone spoke about this, i.e. I am seeing that, from his Geno 2.0, the Italian (Ligurian) Penna (N47555) has resulted DF27-, i.e. he is R-P312*.
Last year Richard Rocca asked me who should be tested amongst the Italian R-P312 for a deep clade test. I suggested one person who seemed to me a possible DF27-, Rocca choose another who resulted DF27+ if I remember well. Now we have Penna who is R-P312+/DF27-.
I ask again: is it by chance that the most ancient haplogroups of pretty every R1b1 subclades are found in Italy?
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Henry44bc
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 03:21:42 PM »

Very interesting .......

Could you please give us all kit numbers, 1k Genomes IDs, or other identification of the Y-DNA samples that serve as Italian examples for each subclade of P312 that you list.

This would help us to better evaluate your research.

Thanks,
Henry
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R1b-Z220
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 04:03:51 PM »


In these last times, for personal reasons, I have followed less than before this matter, and I don’t know if someone spoke about this, i.e. I am seeing that, from his Geno 2.0, the Italian (Ligurian) Penna (N47555) has resulted DF27-, i.e. he is R-P312*.
Last year Richard Rocca asked me who should be tested amongst the Italian R-P312 for a deep clade test. I suggested one person who seemed to me a possible DF27-, Rocca choose another who resulted DF27+ if I remember well. Now we have Penna who is R-P312+/DF27-.
I ask again: is it by chance that the most ancient haplogroups of pretty every R1b1 subclades are found in Italy?


It is interesting that there is now an Italian on the P312** list, as he is the first from southern Europe (the P312** from Spain actually has a paper trail back to Flanders).

It is however a misconception that P312** is somehow older than any other variety of P312. All that it indicates is that the SNPs which define their subclades have yet to be discovered. There is absolutely no reason to believe that any given P312** individual comes from an older branch of P312 than someone who is from a younger branch, such as M222, unless one assumes there have been no SNPs in his line for the past several thousand years.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 01:01:44 AM »

Very interesting .......

Could you please give us all kit numbers, 1k Genomes IDs, or other identification of the Y-DNA samples that serve as Italian examples for each subclade of P312 that you list.

This would help us to better evaluate your research.

Thanks,
Henry

I have written above:
"I am seeing that, from his Geno 2.0, the Italian (Ligurian) Penna (N47555) has resulted DF27-, i.e. he is R-P312*."

P.S. His data are of course in the "Italy FTDNA Project", also his Geno 2.0.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 02:45:02 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 01:07:28 AM »

It is however a misconception that P312** is somehow older than any other variety of P312. All that it indicates is that the SNPs which define their subclades have yet to be discovered. There is absolutely no reason to believe that any given P312** individual comes from an older branch of P312 than someone who is from a younger branch, such as M222, unless one assumes there have been no SNPs in his line for the past several thousand years.

This is what many are writing, without no reason I believe. Of course also R-P312** has had its own SNPs after the separation, but not having the most known SNPs makes it the descendant of the first and most ancient ancestors.

If and where we will find some R-Z2103- or Z2105-, probably there was the origin of this haplogroup (R-L23/L150+).
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 02:46:27 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Richard Rocca
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 12:31:28 PM »

In these last times, for personal reasons, I have followed less than before this matter, and I don’t know if someone spoke about this, i.e. I am seeing that, from his Geno 2.0, the Italian (Ligurian) Penna (N47555) has resulted DF27-, i.e. he is R-P312*.
Last year Richard Rocca asked me who should be tested amongst the Italian R-P312 for a deep clade test. I suggested one person who seemed to me a possible DF27-, Rocca choose another who resulted DF27+ if I remember well. Now we have Penna who is R-P312+/DF27-.
I ask again: is it by chance that the most ancient haplogroups of pretty every R1b1 subclades are found in Italy?


Just to clarify, someone donated money to the Italy project to specifically find DF27+ people and not DF27- people, so the kit that was tested was the one most likely to test positive for DF27.

Either way, I have added a new group to the Italy project that is P312(U152- L21- DF27-)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 12:37:39 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2013, 01:16:08 PM »

Either way, I have added a new group to the Italy project that is P312(U152- L21- DF27-)

I have just seen and I thank you for this. In the P312 Project Penna is also DF19-, then probably his results have arrived.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2013, 05:37:55 AM »

Amongst the samples of the R-P312 FTDNA Project who are L27- [D. R1b-P312** (L21-, U152-, DF27-, DF19-, and presumed or actual L238-)] Penna is the only with DYS438=11. All the others have the modal 12.
DYS438 has a Mutation Rate of 0,000438, and is one of the slowest ones.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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