Bulgarian R-L23

[Maliclavelli]

So long many claimed a study upon the Balkan haplogroups for understanding better also Western European ones, above all R-L23 and subclades. Finally we have this study (Karachanak et al., Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry, PloS ONE).
Of course they made some caveats and confirm what we did know:

1) “This analysis confirms the position of Bulgarians close to Macedonian Greeks and in the proximity of Slavic populations from the Western Balkans, which is not the case with the remainder of the Slavic populations considered (p. 5)”

2) “Important caveats to consider are the inherent uncertainties in the calibration of the Y-STR molecular clock and the inflation of the time estimates caused by rare outlier alleles and
multiple founders or recurrent gene flows during population formation" (p. 5)

39 “The network of Hg R-L23* is characterized by multiple reticulations, which confirm that this haplogroup includes subclades yet to be discovered”  (p. 5)

Many will regret the use of the Zhiv mutation rate, but I’d want to do some observations.

It is very painful that so rough geneticists aren’t been able to give many values of the marker DYS385, so important for understanding the R-L23 subclades. Certainly they didn’t discriminate a single peak, then we may presuppose that where the values aren’t, they are the same ones. I.e. many R-L23 have probably 11-11, i.e they are the “Balkan cluster” when they have DYS392 and DYS393=13 or close to them.

These are the R-L23:

28Burgas   R-L23   14      13   29   24   10   11   12   15   12   12   19   15   15   23   12

29Burgas   R-L23   14      13   29   24   11      13   15   12      19   15   16   23   12

30Burgas   R-L23   15      13   29   23   10   12   15   14   10   13      15   16   21   11

43Varna   R-L23   14   11/14   13   29   24   10   13   12   14   12   11   19   15   17   23   12

106Montana   R-L23   14      13   29   25   11   11   12   15   12   12      15   16   23   12

107Montana   R-L23   14   11/14   13   29   24   11   13   12   15   13   13   19   15   16   23   13

141Plovdiv   R-L23   14      13   29   24   11   13   14   15   12   12   19   15   16   23   12

142Plovdiv   R-L23   14   11/14   13   29   24   11   13   12   15   12   12   19   15   17   24   12

143Plovdiv   R-L23   14   11/14   14   30   24   11   13   12   14   12   12   19   15   17   24   12

159Razgrad   R-L23   14      13   29   24   11   11   12   14   12   12   19   15   15   23   11

160Razgrad   R-L23   14   11/14   13   30   24   10   13   12   15   11   12   19   15   16   23   12


185Sofia City   R-L23   14   11/14   12   29   24   10   13   12   15   12   12   19   16   16   23   11

222Sofia Province   R-L23   14   11/12   13   29   24   11   13   12   15   12   12   21   15   17   23   13

223Sofia Province   R-L23   14   11/13   13   29   24   11   13   12   15   12   12   21   15   17   23   13

244Haskovo   R-L23   14   10/11   13   29   24   10   13   14   15   12   12   19   15   15   23   12

245Haskovo   R-L23   14      13   29   24   11   13   13   15   12   12   19   15   16   23   11

246Haskovo   R-L23   14      13   29   24   11   13   13   15   12   12   19   15   16   23   12

247Haskovo   R-L23   14   11/14   13   29   24   12   13   12   15   12   12   19   15   16   25   13


We can clearly see that many have DYS392=13 and DYS393=12, then probably are Z2105+ (to test L277 and L584):

43Varna
107Montana
142Plovdiv
143Plovdiv
160Razgrad
185Sofia Province
222 Sofia Province
223Sofia Province
247 Haskovo

Are probably Balkan cluster:

29Burgas
141Plovdiv
244Haskovo
245Haskovo
246Haskovo

Of course they are at least two other haplotypes with DYS392=11 and DYS393=12 and another with DYS392=12 and DYS393=15. Of course these haplotypes may have come from elsewhere and don’t demonstrate anything about the Bulgarian variance and less about a possible origin of R-L23.

[Luan]

Out of 67 markers I only match one from Bulgaria, Genetic distance -7. 

[Maliclavelli]

Out of 67 markers I only match one from Bulgaria, Genetic distance -7. 

Hope that I am right about those Bulgarian “Balkan cluster”, but of course only a deeper test (with SNPs) would be definitive.

[Maliclavelli]

Of course it is very interesting this haplotype on YHRD, with DYS392=12, DYS393=15, DYS385 often =15-15 and DYS438=10:

9   15   14   32   23   10   12   15   15,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
8   15   13   30   23   10   12   15   15,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
6   15   13   30   23   10   12   15   15,16   10   11   14   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
5   15   13   29   24   10   12   15   15,16   10   11   15   20   14   19   19   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
5   15   13   29   24   10   12   15   16,16   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
5   15   13   30   24   10   12   15   15,15   10   11   15   20   14   16   19   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
4   15   13   29   24   10   12   15   15,15   10   10   15   20   14   16   19   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
4   15   13   30   23   10   12   15   15,16   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
4   15   14   31   23   10   12   15   15,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
4   15   14   31   23   10   12   15   15,16   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
3   15   13   29   23   10   12   15   15,16   10   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
3   15   13   29   23   10   12   15   16,16   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
3   15   13   29   24   10   12   15   15,16   10   11   15   20   14   16   19   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
3   15   13   30   24   10   12   15   15,15   10   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
3   15   14   30   23   10   12   15   15,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
3   15   14   32   23   10   12   15   14,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
3   15   14   32   23   10   12   15   15,16   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
3   15   14   33   23   10   12   15   15,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
3   16   13   30   21   10   12   15   16,18   11   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
3   16   14   31   22   10   12   15   15,15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

[Luan]

Out of 67 markers I only match one from Bulgaria, Genetic distance -7. 

Hope that I am right about those Bulgarian “Balkan cluster”, but of course only a deeper test (with SNPs) would be definitive.

I only have one match, I though I would have more by now. Do you have many matches?

[Maliclavelli]

Here we have also DYS437=14 and DYS635=21:

6   15   13   30   23   10   12   15   15,16   10   11   14   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
2   15   13   30   23   10   12   15   15,16   10   11   14   20   14   16   21   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   15   13   30   23   10   12   15   15,16   10   11   14   20   14   16   21   10   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   15   13   30   23   10   12   15   15,16   10   11   14   20   14   15   21   10   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   15   13   30   23   10   12   15   15,16   10   11   14   20   15   15   21   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

3 of 702   Mendoza, Argentina [European]   Eurasian - European   Latin America
1 of 90   Cuneo, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 270   East Tyrol, Austria [Tyrolean]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 78   Santarém, Brazil [Admixed Brazilian]   Admixed   Latin America
1 of 327   Córdoba, Argentina [European]   Eurasian - European   Latin America
1 of 100   Iceland [Icelandic]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 113   Belgium [Flemish]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 162   Marche, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 96   Wallachia, Romania [Romanian]   Eurasian - European - Eastern European   Europe

At this point an Italian origin shouldn’t be excluded.

We should only ask if this is a R-L23 and if these scholars did the right test.

With these values we have these people on SMGF:

DYS393=15
DYS390=23
DYS389=13-29
DYA392=12
DYS438=10
DYS635=21
 


MEIER[Germany]
CARICOLA[Italy]
CHESEBRO[USA-Hawaii]
BERG[Russia]
MORETON[USA-Illinois]

[Maliclavelli]

It seems that this haplotype is I2b1, and this values gave to Bulgarian R-L23 its ancientness!

[Maliclavelli]

On YHRD the second haplotype with DYS392=11 and 393=12 appears in the Balkans and as I suspected has DYS385=11-11:

1   14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,11   12   12   15   19   15   15   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 191   Northern Greece, Greece [Greek]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe

These are two other close haplotypes:



1   14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,11   12   12   15   19   14   15   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 40   Trapani, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe

1   14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,11   12   12   15   19   16   15   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 96   Wallachia, Romania [Romanian]   Eurasian - European - Eastern European   Europe

And so on:

14   13   29   24   11   11   12      12   12   15   19   15   15   23   12                     1   >>

[Maliclavelli]

9   14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,11   12   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
2   14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,11   12   12   15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,11   12   12   15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,11   12   11   15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,11   12   12   15   19   14   15   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,11   12   12   15   19   15   15   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1   14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,11   12   12   15   19   16   15   23   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

7 of 19   Andon Poci, Albania [Aromun]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe
2 of 165   Albania [Gheg Albanian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe
1 of 182   Greece [Greek]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe
1 of 215   Novi Sad, Serbia [Serbian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe
1 of 191   Northern Greece, Greece [Greek]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe
1 of 96   Wallachia, Romania [Romanian]   Eurasian - European - Eastern European   Europe
1 of 52   Skopje, Macedonia [Macedonian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe
1 of 400   Sweden [Swedish]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe
1 of 72   Trapani, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe

14   13   29   24   10   11   12   11,11                                             1   >>

1   14   13   29   24   10   11   12   11,11   12   13   15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 182   Greece [Greek]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe


14   13   29   24   12   11   12   11,11                                             1   >>

1 of 104   Romania [Romanian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe


14   13   29   24   11   12   12   11,11                                             1   >>

1 of 168   Puglia, Italy [Italian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe


14   13   29   24   11   11   13   11,11                                             1   >>



1   14   13   29   24   11   11   13   11,11   12   13   15   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>
1 of 165   Albania [Gheg Albanian]   Eurasian - European - South-Eastern European   Europe



14   13   29   24   11   11   12   11,12                                             1   >>

1 of 234   Halle, Germany [German]   Eurasian - European - Western European   Europe

[Maliclavelli]

This haplotype is that of Anghel from Romania, I extracted from SMGF and put on ySearch. Unfortunately nobody can see it now, but with its DYS459a=8 and DYS446=15 I’d say that it is a variant of the Balkan cluster, which probably is very ancient in the Balkans, but for this it has anything to do with the R-L23 subclades, which I think arose in Italy and not in the Balkans.

[A_Wode]

"The network of Hg R-L23* is characterized by multiple reticulations, which confirm that this haplogroup includes sub-clades yet to be discovered [37]. The frequency and variance distributions of R-L23 (data not shown), together with its age variation, locate the most ancient presence of this lineage in the Circum-Pontic region, "

^ This might upset some Kylosov enthusiasts and some of our East European posters.

I wouldn't mind Jean M to chime in on this thread. I recall D.Anthony mentioning the Balkans depopulating in HWL. How can we be certain E-V13 and I2a2-Din have been present since the mesolithic if everyone packed up and left? (or were killed)

Moreover, the presence of G2a3b is nearly non-existant and they have been found time and time again in European neolithic sites who - in theory- should have sprung up from the Balkan Neolithic cultures.

Have the Balkans been back filled by migrants in very recent history? Perhaps the neolithic spread was not solely by the G2a3b lineage? Since J2b2 may also be neolithic yet is hardly found outside the southern Balkans and Mediterranean region.

[acekon]

I'm in ground zero for Eastern European R1a Z-283 clusters, Poles/Sorbs/Ukranians. Today I added a R1a Z-93 from  Uttar Pradesh, India ,with whom I share a small 5 cM segment on my #4 chromosome. I remember my first genetic results[McDonald] were he quoted "proxy for a Pole" but showed a small tiny fleck in Uttar Pradesh/Gujarit region.     

[Maliclavelli]

This haplotype is that of Anghel from Romania, I extracted from SMGF and put on ySearch. Unfortunately nobody can see it now, but with its DYS459a=8 and DYS446=15 I’d say that it is a variant of the Balkan cluster, which probably is very ancient in the Balkans, but for this it has anything to do with the R-L23 subclades, which I think arose in Italy and not in the Balkans.

Anghel

12 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 11 29 15 8-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-17-17 12 11 19-23 14 12 12 12 15 11 11 12 23 10 14 12 30 24

[Maliclavelli]

Eastara wrote on eng.molgen:

Gioiello, I did not quite understand your postings. Are you saying the Bulgarian L23 from the study are closest to other Balkanians? This is not a surprise, but otherwise are they near the Armenians and other Anatolians or to Italians and further West in Europe? I also think that Bulgarian L11 are some back migrations from Western Europe, but most could be from more ancient times. There are very few Bulgarians, I see in the Bulgarian project who are exactly the Atlantic haplotype and have thousands of matches, most have 50 or less at 12 markers. There are some theories not only about Celts, but colonists from Italy during Roman times. Being separated by 2000 years the haplotypes drifted apart.
Also don't pay attention to the geographical distribution, as some like Varna are very small size to be statistically correct, and almost all Bulgarians in NorthEastern Bulgaria are recent migrants from elsewhere. That was a Turks and Tartars territory, most of them migrated to Turkey and the remaining are not tested in this study as ethnic Bulgarians only are included.

My response:

Eastara, I think having demonstrated many things with my postings. You can see that, whereas others are speculating about nothing and are writing their novels, I gave some data and discussed about them:

1)   these genealogists weren’t able to discriminate a single peak in DYS385, then, when data lack, we have to presuppose that the values were the same.
2)   A haplotype, that with DYS392=12 and DYS393=15, isn’t a R-L23 but a haplogroup I, then has to be excluded and not counted for the variance.
3)   There is an usual haplotype of R-L23 with DYS392=13 and DYS393=12 and with DYS385=11-14, but some with 11-13 and 11-12. These are the usual haplotypes of Italy and Western Europe and may have come from here (or from East).
4)   There are also many Balkan cluster, which have above all DYS385=11-11 and DYS392=13 (or close to it) and DYS393=13 (or close to it). This is the Balkan cluster we knew. But there is also another Balkan cluster with DYS392=11 and DYS393=12, but all belong to the same cluster, with DYS385=11-11 and DYS459a=8 and DYD446=14 or more. For this I have said that the Balkan cluster is very ancient in the Balkans. We don’t know when it arose and from where it came or if it is in the Balkan from very ancient times. Anyway this cluster isn’t the ancestor for its values of the R-L23 subclades. But I am finding some similar cluster in Germany and Portugal. The possibility, as you said, that they derive from colonists from Italy or Western Europe at the time of the Roman Empire shouldn’t be excluded. Don’t forget that I hypothesized many years ago that also the Balkan cluster has derived from Italy and I spoke of the Italian Risso I put on ySearch from SMGF. Of course it would be very interesting to test him for these SNPs.

[Maliclavelli]

But I am finding some similar cluster in Germany and Portugal.

This is the Da Silveira’s haplotype from Brazil:

13 24 15 11 11-11 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-17 (uncertain the fourth value, but not 14,15,16,17,18, perhaps 13, but with these new rules of SMGF it is very difficult to do a research) 11 11 19-23 15 13 12 12 15 11 11 13 23 10 14 12 30 24.
He is very close to Perovic who is certainly a R-L23 Balkan cluster.

He is very likely a L23 for its DYS461=11 and a Balkan cluster for
DYS393=13
DYS385=11-11
DYS459a=8
DYS446=15

[Luan]

But I am finding some similar cluster in Germany and Portugal.

This is the Da Silveira’s haplotype from Brazil:

13 24 15 11 11-11 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-16-17 (uncertain the fourth value, but not 14,15,16,17,18, perhaps 13, but with these new rules of SMGF it is very difficult to do a research) 11 11 19-23 15 13 12 12 15 11 11 13 23 10 14 12 30 24.
He is very close to Perovic who is certainly a R-L23 Balkan cluster.

He is very likely a L23 for its DYS461=11 and a Balkan cluster for
DYS393=13
DYS385=11-11
DYS459a=8
DYS446=15

Its interesting how the Balkan cluster of R-L23 can be found all the way to Brasil.

[Maliclavelli]

Its interesting how the Balkan cluster of R-L23 can be found all the way to Brasil.

Luan (Lion, Leone), of course mine are only speculations until we’ll be able to test Da Silveira or some people related to him for the due SNPs. But whether he were actually an R-L23/Balkan cluster, we should investigate about his origin. A Brazilian called Da Silveira should be of Portuguese origin, but he could be of every other one.
If you look at his values, you can see that his haplotype is very different from the Balkan ones, then it was separated from them many centuries (or thousands) of years ago and only other haplotypes from other European places could say where it probably arose.