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1790Noll
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« on: February 26, 2013, 10:57:59 AM »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9888402/One-million-Brits-descended-from-Romans.html

I would like to repeat again a fact ignored for years, and I've tried to say to Dr. Faux etc. .

When five years ago I tested positive for U152+ or then S28+ I had doubts about the origin Cimbra (from Dr. Faux) of my haplogroup.
I have always tried to say that the North of Italy, known as Cisalpine Gaul, was heavily settled by tribes of Gauls.

After the Roman conquest and annexation of northern Italy .. all the Cisalpine Gauls were considered Roman citizens and were hired also as legionaries.
A lot of romans legionaries .. they went and came to Britain from northern Italy were Cisalpine Gauls.

The Cisalpine Gauls spoke a Celtic language "similar" to the British.

Even now in Northern Italy a lot of people spoke a dialect Gallo-Italic, remnant of Celtic north Italy colonization.

So that part of the British Southern are the residue of colonization of Cisalpine Gauls (as roman legionaries) ..
it does not seem impossible for me.
As Mr. Gilbert or Mr. Rocca..
I'm not excluding the U152+ origin by the Gauls and the civilization of LA Tene..
But only that the British U152+ are probably descended from Roman colonists from Cisalpine Gaul.
The Cisalpine gauls went from La tene civilization.. etc.

Joseph Belgieri
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glentane
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 12:46:33 PM »

There have been cultural links, although not necessarily genetic ones, between the southwestern Alpine area (Piedmont, Liguria/French Alpine provinces) and the rest of western Europe, including Britain to the very top end of Scotland, since 4000 BC, when the first farmers eventually slogged their way up there.
Monviso and Mont Beigua, to be precise.

Check out the map, fig 22.6
http://www.academia.edu/1962801/Neolithic_Alpine_axeheads_from_the_Continent_to_Great_Britain_the_Isle_of_Man_and_Ireland

and fig. 5
Petrequin et al.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 05:52:04 PM by glentane » Logged
Bren123
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 01:23:08 PM »

There have been cultural links, although not necessarily genetic ones, between the southwestern Alpine area (Piedmont, Liguria/French Alpine provinces) and the rest of western Europe, including Britain to the very top end of Scotland, since 4000 BC, when the first farmers eventually slogged their way up there.
Monviso and Mont Beigua, to be precise.

Check out the map, fig 22.6
http://www.academia.edu/1962801/Neolithic_Alpine_axeheads_from_the_Continent_to_Great_Britain_the_Isle_of_Man_and_Ireland

and fig. 5
http://www.academia.edu/981963/Sheridan_A._Field_D._Pailler_Y._Petrequin_P._Errera_M._Cassen_S._2010_-_The_Breamore_jadeitite_axehead_and_other_Neolithic_axeheads_of_alpine_rocks_from_central_southern_England_Wiltshire_Archaeological_and_Natural_History_Magazine_103_p._16-34

Didn't The Amesbury Archer come from that area?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 01:23:41 PM by Bren123 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 01:25:56 PM »

There have been cultural links, although not necessarily genetic ones, between the southwestern Alpine area (Piedmont, Liguria/French Alpine provinces) and the rest of western Europe, including Britain to the very top end of Scotland, since 4000 BC, when the first farmers eventually slogged their way up there.
Monviso and Mont Beigua, to be precise.

Check out the map, fig 22.6
http://www.academia.edu/1962801/Neolithic_Alpine_axeheads_from_the_Continent_to_Great_Britain_the_Isle_of_Man_and_Ireland

and fig. 5
http://www.academia.edu/981963/Sheridan_A._Field_D._Pailler_Y._Petrequin_P._Errera_M._Cassen_S._2010_-_The_Breamore_jadeitite_axehead_and_other_Neolithic_axeheads_of_alpine_rocks_from_central_southern_England_Wiltshire_Archaeological_and_Natural_History_Magazine_103_p._16-34

Of course I have always said that the Isles were peopled by the Italian Refugium, then I think that also R-U152 was born in Italy and expanded Northwards. If Belgieri's haplotype is due to Gauls from Cisalpine region or to more ancient Italian R-U152 we'll be able to say by  deeper tests, also because probably the ancestors of La Tene or before of the Chasséen culture came probably from Italy.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 03:54:15 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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MtDNA: K1a1b1e

1790Noll
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 04:07:46 PM »



OK..
Surely the origin of U152 + is older ..
Sure the origin of the British U152+ may be should be oldest of the period of the Roman conquest.

But I think that the hypothesis that part of British people U152+ are descended from Roman legionaries or settlers .. is plausible.

In northern Italy U152+ is more widespread in areas of the northwest (of colonization gauls) that in the northeast who were Venets.

If the legions in Britain were Cisalpine Gauls may well have left their genetic traces in the South England.

These remains are only genetic residual after the Anglo-Saxon invasion, but may very well be derived U152+ : Cisalpine Gauls ..!
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glentane
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2013, 06:17:26 PM »

 Well that wasn't really the point I was making. I'll try and come across as less muddled, by saying that potential origins for peri-Alpine yDNA in the Isles extend right back to the depths of prehistory.
 Absolutely anyone, at any time at all in the last six thousand years could have pottered across the Channel to the massive white-coloured cliffs on the horizon (hence gaelic "Alba" a name retained by people who could never have seen them, for possibly a couple of thousand years or more).

Case in point, the Amesbury character and his british-born ?son. A couple of thousand years later than the jadeitite trade. Again associated with the introduction of top-of-the-range prestige goods, gold and particularly copper. He was possibly from round the other side of the Alps, getting on towards Bavaria. Although isotopes can be tricky, without some other evidence to triangulate the teeth traces to a particular latitude or geological suite. For instance we can probably rule out northern Sweden, for obvious reasons.

But no matter how exalted his status, he needed a wealthy and populous client base to function. He didn't simply rock up in a howling wilderness and declare himself emperor. Wiltshire, and the rest of the habitable bits of the entire country all the way to Orkney was simply heaving with people, grouped apparently in large agricultural statelets under some sort of powerful elite, who seem to have got along fairly well among themselves, competing via prestige displays (which is where matey the Archer gets a foot in the door) and ostentatious civil engineering. Although the peasantry may not have had such a happy time of it. Think of Woodlands Culture, or earlier Mesoamerican civilisations, minus all those feathers.

Just because some mediterranean aristocrat decided to write down the fact doesn't limit these movements to relatively recent times. All we can say is that the by far the bulk of them seem to have embarked from what is now the Franco-Belgian coast, at or about the narrowest crossing. Wherever they came from. Apart from the brave souls who chanced it directly across from Brittany to I suppose Cornwall, or even Waterford, on the other island.

And just because the stuff (very fancy, but often almost useless axes in this case) ended up in a game of transcontinental pass-the-parcel  (maybe a bit like the Kula Ring, Maliclavelli? People have seriously used that as a model for this prehistoric phenomenon) doesn't mean people ever left their nice sunny Ligurian pool-loungers (or neolithic equivalent). You'd have to be mad, or desperate, to end up here.
 These axes were eventually supplanted by (decidedly functional and elegant, in that peculiar scandinavian way lol, not just very pretty like the green ones) "danish" flint axes, or local knockoffs in a "belgo/danish" style. I doubt many people actually made their way directly from Jutland. Go round to the tradesmans' entrance at Dover or Pevensey like everybody else, if you don't mind. The bulk of Alpine jadeitite axes found in Britain are of a definite "german" style (in a strictly geographic sense, before anybody kicks off), which does rather point the finger, especially as they are mostly found in the east of the island.

Just about anybody in prehistoric Europe could have been responsible for local Isles U-152.
But it's a safe bet nearly all of them somehow eventually managed to get to, and set off from, somewhere near Boulogne, at least until proper sailing craft were developed, e.g. like those of the (Gaulish) Veneti, the Classis Brittannia, or just beasted it across by rowing really really hard, like the Sutton Hoo craft's originators (requires decent iron shipnails, and lots of 'em, or the thing will spring a timber on the first thump of a lively sea).
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Degredado
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 09:08:27 PM »

Sounds like a layman's oversimplification... A lot (if not most) of the R-U152 in Britain probably pre-dates the Romans... on the other hand, most of the J2, E1b and G2a in Britain could easily come from Romans.
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glentane
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« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 12:37:42 PM »

The problem is probably and regrettably intractable, unless actual continental haplotypes of sufficient similarity can be dated relative to the Isles ones. Too much time, too much drift in the markers, until the historical period.

Daniel Defoe expressed the general conclusion of the English about their own antecedents in 1703, satirising the "nativists" ( an Irish speciality :) )

Quote
These are the heroes that despise the Dutch,
       And rail at new-come foreigners so much,
       Forgetting that themselves are all derived
       From the most scoundrel race that ever lived;
       A horrid crowd of rambling thieves and drones,
       Who ransacked kingdoms and dispeopled towns,
       The Pict and painted Briton, treacherous Scot,
       By hunger, theft, and rapine hither brought;
       Norwegian pirates, buccaneering Danes,
       Whose red-haired offspring everywhere remains,
       Who, joined with Norman-French, compound the breed
       From whence your true-born Englishmen proceed.

          And lest by Length of time it be pretended
       The climate may this modern breed ha' mended,
       Wise Providence, to keep us where we are,
       Mixes us daily with exceeding care.
       We have been Europe's sink, the jakes where she
       Voids all her offal outcast progeny.

       From our eighth Henry's time, the strolling bands
       Of banished fugitives from neighboring lands
       Have here a certain sanctuary found:
       The eternal refuge of the vagabond,
       Where, in but half a common age of time,
       Borrowing new blood and manners from the clime,
       Proudly they learn all mankind to contemn,
       And all their race are true-born Englishmen.
           Dutch, Walloons, Flemings, Irishmen, and Scots,
       Vaudois and Valtelins, and Hugonots,
       In good Queen Bess's charitable reign,
       Supplied us with three hundred thousand men.
       Religion—God, we thank Thee!—sent them hither,
       Priests, Protestants, the Devil and all together:
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Mitchell-since-1893
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2013, 10:19:52 AM »

In the article it states, "A further 2.3 million English and Welsh men have one of the four other genetic signatures identified by the study. "

Does anyone know what these "four other genetic signatures" are?  

I have the U152 ancestry.  Just curious if I have the other 4.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 10:21:02 AM by Mitchell-since-1893 » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2013, 09:14:44 PM »

In the article it states, "A further 2.3 million English and Welsh men have one of the four other genetic signatures identified by the study. "

Does anyone know what these "four other genetic signatures" are?  

I have the U152 ancestry.  Just curious if I have the other 4.


Since the article said this . . .

Quote
A genetic study of five thousand people found that up to four million men in England and Wales carry distinctive genetic signatures which are most commonly found, and likely have their origin, in Italy.

I'm guessing they are talking about other y haplogroups common in Italy, like E1b1b, J2, and G2, as well as U152. That makes four, and those are the four most common in Italy, with U152 number one.

The Romans controlled much of Britain for over 400 years. It seems likely they left some genetic traces behind.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 09:17:36 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mitchell-since-1893
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2013, 09:31:16 PM »

rms2,

I didnt' know if they were using the same or similar methodology used by the "People of the British Isles" study i.e looking at more than just y-dna...but after rereading the article,  it said "researchers examined dna from the Y-chromosome"

Thus your guess is probably right on the money.

Per the article
Quote
up to four million men in England and Wales carry distinctive genetic signatures which are most commonly found, and likely have their origin, in Italy.
Quote
researchers estimated that at least a million of the men are likely to be direct descendants of Romans.

So 25% are estimated to be of roman ancestry.

Quote
1.6 million English and Welsh-born men carry the Alpine marker alone

So if I'm reading this correctly, of the 1.6 million U152/S28 men in England and Wales, 25% or ~400,000 would be of Roman ancestry according to the study.  The remaining 1.2 million would be from other Alpine-Celtic sources. e.g. La Tene, Halstatt, Belgae, etc.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 10:44:57 PM by Mitchell-since-1893 » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2013, 12:35:13 PM »

rms2,

I didnt' know if they were using the same or similar methodology used by the "People of the British Isles" study i.e looking at more than just y-dna...but after rereading the article,  it said "researchers examined dna from the Y-chromosome"

Thus your guess is probably right on the money.

Per the article
Quote
up to four million men in England and Wales carry distinctive genetic signatures which are most commonly found, and likely have their origin, in Italy.
Quote
researchers estimated that at least a million of the men are likely to be direct descendants of Romans.

So 25% are estimated to be of roman ancestry.

Quote
1.6 million English and Welsh-born men carry the Alpine marker alone

So if I'm reading this correctly, of the 1.6 million U152/S28 men in England and Wales, 25% or ~400,000 would be of Roman ancestry according to the study.  The remaining 1.2 million would be from other Alpine-Celtic sources. e.g. La Tene, Halstatt, Belgae, etc.

I am reading that a little differently. I think they are saying that, of the men with y-dna signatures common in Italy, one fourth of them are likely to descend from the Romans, not that one fourth of the U152 guys descend from Romans.

I'm not sure what proportion of the British U152 guys descend from Romans.
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glentane
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2013, 05:48:31 PM »

OK, so if nobody likes the sound of 4000 BC, let's fast forward to the 17th century AD.
I'd never heard of the "Vaudois and Valtentins" in that cheeky poem I lobbed in.
Turns out they're the Waldensians and Valtellini. Ah, right.

Quote
On 24 April 1655, at 4 a.m., ...  the signal was given for a general massacre.This massacre became known as the Piedmont Easter. An estimate of some 1,700 Waldensians were slaughtered; the massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe. Protestant rulers in northern Europe offered sanctuary to the remaining Waldensians. Oliver Cromwell, then ruler in England, began petitioning on behalf of the Waldensians, writing letters, raising contributions, calling a general fast in England and threatening to send military forces to the rescue ... Swiss and Dutch Calvinists set up an 'underground railroad' to bring many of the survivors north ...
and
Quote
On the evening of 18/19 July 1620, a force of Valtellina rebels supported by Austrian and Italian troops marched into Tirano and began killing Protestants. When they finished in Tirano, they marched to Teglio, Sondrio and further down the valley killing every Protestant that they found. Between 500[2] and 600[3] people were killed on that night and in the following four days. The attack drove nearly all the Protestants out of the valley ..
So quite how anyone can even begin to disentangle these Lombards and Piemontese from Neolithic, Bronze Age, Gaulish ones, or even the everlovin' Romans is quite beyond a bear of little brain like me. Apart from a (misspelled) surname perhaps? The Pope seems to have made sure they are scattered all over Northern Europe, and New England. Not all went back.
Whereas quite a lot of the Romans did, nearly all of them that could carry a pilum, to shore up Gaul and finally the City against the Huns & Allied Trades. OK they may have left a load of offspring, but in what way would an Iron Age North Italian be distinguishable from a Reformation period one? Apart from being less German and possibly more Gaulish, I suppose.
They may well have taken as many conscriptable british auxiliaries with them as they could shanghai, leading their other "loyal foederati", the Saxons, to hatch a cunning plan. It's an argument that cuts all sorts of ways.
Not trying to start a fight or anything.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 05:50:30 PM by glentane » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2013, 07:40:55 PM »

I think you have to look at likelihood and the possible genetic impacts made by various groups. It's doubtful that many Waldensians spread their dna throughout Northern Europe. But the Romans controlled most of Britain for over 400 years, and much of the rest of Europe for a much longer period. The odds that a modern British U152+ is the descendant of a Waldensian refugee are pretty slim, although not zero. The odds that he is the descendant of a Roman soldier or merchant are much greater.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 07:41:47 PM by rms2 » Logged

glentane
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2013, 05:45:04 PM »

The odds that he is the descendant of a Roman soldier or merchant are much greater.
Absolutely. But how Latin were these Romans?

Approximately 2/3 of the Imperial force in Britannia was made up of auxiliary and tribal levies from other warzones, at any given time probably fewer than 17000 proper legionaries of putatively Italic origins and the rest of the 50000-plus being an utter dog's breakfast of European tribesmen (mostly Gauls and Germans), Middle Easterners and North Africans.

These auxiliary legionnaires seem to have been the ones to shack up with local women and settle, like the Asturians and 500 Sarmatians at Ribchester. Whatever happened to the Antonine and Hadrianic Wall Syrians (maybe 5000) is anybody's guess. Presumably they would show up in the yDNA?
The authentic Romans, as crack troops, were constantly being dragged from pillar to post doing the real serious fighting, up the sharp end of wherever the Legion was posted to, frequently abroad. They were not supposed to marry until their 25 years was up, although by about the third century the ban was rescinded in the face of the widespread disregard for this.

The veterans of the large towns established after the Claudian invasion, who may have been true Latins, were totally annihilated in the Boudiccan revolt, maybe 75000 people (and the poor old Legio IX Hispana, as usual).

Here's a really annoying list I've stuck together. Dates are for the duration of service in Brittania
Quote
Proper Legions
(LEG II ADIUTRIX) Originally Marines/Mariners, from seafaring peoples of Eastern Mediterranean>Ravenna> AD71-86
(LEG II AUGUSTA) Italy>Spain>Alsace>AD43-ca.AD400
(LEG VI VICTRIX) merged from other legions, possibly Caesar's Sixth>Syria>Spain>Rhine> AD122-AD406
(LEG VIII AUGUSTA)from veteran colonies of Caesar's>Balkans>Anatolia(Galatia)>Rhine>one vexillation, under Hadrian
(LEG IX HISPANA) from Caesar's veteran colonies >Spain>Rhine>Pannonia>AD43-AD120
(LEG XIV GEMINA) ?Caesar's Fourteenth> Rhine> AD43-AD64
(LEG XX VALERIA VICTRIX) Germany> AD43-?AD200
(LEG XXII DEIOTARIANA)??
(LEG XXII PRIMIGENIA) ??

Auxiliary Legions

Alps (various tribes, cis/transalpine ?gauls)
W France (Aquitani)
N Spain (Astures, celts)
Netherlands (Batavi, germani cisrhenani)
Portugal (Gallaeci, celts)
Belgium (Tungri, germani cisrhenani)
Westphalia (Baetasii, germani)
Bosnia (Breuci)
Iberia (Celtiberes)
Britain (Cornovii, britons)
Lower Rhine (Cugerni)
Dacia (various "celtic" tribes)
Croatia (Delmatae)
Frisia (Frisiavones, )
Gaul (various gaulish tribes)
Germany (various tribes)
Belgium (Nervii, belgae)
Syria (city of Hama)
Spain (Hispanorum, various)
Gaul (Lingones of Lugdunensis)
Cisalpine Gaul/Adriatic (Lingones)
Flanders (Menapii, belgae)
N France (Morini, belgae)
Hungary/Czechia (Pannonians)
?Algeria ("Mauri", ?berbers)
Italy (Praetorians, gentry & crack troops)
Austria/Czechia/S Germany (Raeti, allegedly celticised fugitive "Etruscans"!+ Euganei (?Ligures)), plus Vindelici(?Liburnians), Estiones , Licates, Genauni, yet more Brigantii, Venones, Calucones (?all (La Tène) celts, or as good as).
Lower Rhine (Sunici, germani)
Thracia (various tribes)
Rhineland (Vangiones, belgae)
Spain (Vardulli, ?aquitani or celt/celtiberian)
Spain/France (Vascones, basques/aquitani)
Alps (various tribes, cis/transalpine ?gauls)

Cavalry & Irregulars
Gauls, Asturians, Frisians, 5,500 Sarmatians, cataphracts (more Sarmatians?), Pannonians, Thracians, Belgium (Nervi & Tungri), Portugal (Vetonnes), Dalmatians, Raetians, Gaesati, Suebi, even more proper germans (Hnaudifridi/Notfried's etc.) even more Moors and Syrian archers, Tigris Arab boatmen ...
I've no idea how you'd even begin to pick out authentic Roman yDNA from that mess!
And considering what's piled up on top of it since, guess what? More Germans. Heaps and heaps of 'em, from all the way to the Arctic Circle. Initially, bringing their own "Roman veteran" yDNA from the Rhine frontier. Then a sackload of "French" (Norsey/Daney/Gauly/Alany/Flemishy/Britto-Gascons and goodness knows what else. Bringing with them samples of the Roman genetic residue of the former Province).

Yes. There are the distant progeny of Roman legionaries in Britain. 100% correct, guaranteed.
Finding them in all that background noise? What d'ye reckon?

You'd think they would have mostly ended up in Wales, Cornwall or Brittany, after the Adventus Saxonum and the flight from Yr Hen Ogledd. Maybe the Germans weren't as nasty as has been made out?

These "Italian" genetic signatures? I'm assuming there's aDNA as well? Has there been too much chaos and shifting about on the Continent since then to link them with known Roman Army stations in say Germany or Spain or North Africa?


PS found out why the layout had gone mental. Tearing my hair out trying to fix it, until I found this.
Oops. Sorry!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 06:00:44 PM by glentane » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2013, 06:26:54 PM »

For me, "Roman" and "Italian" are not synonymous. The Italians were the original core people, yes, but ultimately they became a subset of the larger Empire they created.

I think the point is that probably a lot of the U152 in Britain got there in the bodies of Roman soldiers and merchants, Italian and otherwise. Anyway, although that article talks about a million men, etc., R-U152 is a minority haplogroup in the British Isles.
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glentane
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2013, 09:12:37 PM »

For me, "Roman" and "Italian" are not synonymous. The Italians were the original core people, yes, but ultimately they became a subset of the larger Empire they created.

I think the point is that probably a lot of the U152 in Britain got there in the bodies of Roman soldiers and merchants, Italian and otherwise. Anyway, although that article talks about a million men, etc., R-U152 is a minority haplogroup in the British Isles.
And I'd agree with literally everything you said there. It's the nuanced and sophisticated perspective that distinguishes the "amateur" sector that I'd expect.

It's the proper scientists, if they've not been misrepresented (a perennial danger with science journalism), that gave me a bit of a jolt, and sent me off on one.
Quote
Researchers examined DNA from the Y chromosome, which is only passed on by men, and identified five rare patterns which are unusually common among English, Welsh and particularly Italian men.

The most prominent pattern, known as Alpine, R1b-S28, is found in 13 per cent of men in Italy and 6.5 per cent in England and Wales but just 4.3 per cent in Scotland and 1.8 per cent in Ireland, for example.

Applying the findings to the whole population, this suggests 1.6 million English and Welsh-born men carry the Alpine marker alone. A further 2.3 million English and Welsh men have one of the four other genetic signatures identified by the study.

Although many of the lineages may have begun before or after the invasion, the researchers estimated that at least a million of the men are likely to be direct descendants of Romans.

If they weren't going for populist sensationalism, as though the public was too dim to grasp the full picture, they'd not have downplayed "Although many of the lineages may have begun before or after the invasion .." if they were being honest and got their caveats in like scientists. Or perhaps they genuinely just can't work that one out, through wilful ignorance of the material (as I fear in my gloomier moments).

And it's a bit naughty to crowbar the whole population below the Wall into the set. Like this, "Applying the findings to the whole population, this suggests 1.6 million .." They've found the ones they've found, and that's that. There will be more lurking, but ..
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2013, 09:22:18 PM »

I'll have to take another look at Busby, but was U152 as high as 6.5 % in Wales? That strikes me as too high, but my memory could be off on that.
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