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Author Topic: Welsh Indicators? Info Appreciated  (Read 3045 times)
Trish13
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« on: February 17, 2013, 09:57:08 PM »

Hi :)

So far I have found the members on this site to be very knowledgeable and helpful, so I am hoping that I might get some advice regarding my father's ancestry, please.

We can only go so far with documents because of an illegitimate line, but we have an idea who the mystery man may have been ~ hence my brother having a 43-marker Y-DNA test carried out. So far, we have found no good matches.

What would help us is if we could at least establish that the line has some Welsh DNA. (The family in question claim ancestry from 'the Welsh princes'.)

Could someone advise us on what to do next with regard to testing ~ or whether anything in our current results is already useful in this respect, please?

Thank you!!!

*  *  *  *  *


Our results (R-M269):

DYS19: 14
DYS385: 12-14
DYS388: 12
DYS389I: 13
DYS389II: 29
DYS390: 25
DYS391: 11
DYS392: 13
DYS393: 13
DYS426: 12
DYS437: 15
DYS438: 12
DYS439: 12
DYS441: 13
DYS442: 12
DYS444: 12
DYS445: 12
DYS446: 13
DYS447: 25
DYS448: 19
DYS449: 30
DYS452: 30
DYS454: 11
DYS455: 11
DYS456: 17
DYS458: 17
DYS459: 9-10
DYS460: 11
DYS461: 12
DYS462: 11
DYS463: 25
DYS464: 15-15-17-17
DYS635: 23
Y-GATA-A10: 12
Y-GATA-H4: 11
Y-GGAAT-1B07: 10
YCAII: 19-23
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 09:59:00 PM by Trish13 » Logged
GoldenHind
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2013, 10:38:51 PM »


Do you have a Ysearch ID? If so, it would be helpful to see who your closest matches are.

IMHO, it is probably impossible at this point to distinguish between Welsh and English DNA, though others might disagree. If you were to do SNP testing, you could determine whether your subclade is one commonly found in Wales. However there is no subclade yet discovered which is unique to Wales.
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2013, 11:05:35 PM »

I agree with Goldenhind, but I would also recommend that your brother upgrade to at least 67 markers, and 111 would be even better. If his closest matches are all or mostly Welsh or men with Welsh surnames, that's probably the best indicator.

As far as SNP testing goes, you might want to consider L21. R-L21 is probably the most common y haplogroup in Wales, although it's not exclusive to Wales, not by a longshot. There's plenty of it in nearby England and in the rest of the British Isles, as well. You might want to wait on any SNP testing, however, until he gets 67 str markers or more. The haplotype can tell you a lot and may be able to point you in the right direction and save you some money on SNP testing.
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Trish13
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2013, 12:09:05 AM »

Hello and thank you to GoldenHind and to rms2. :) :)

Your advice is very much appreciated.

I had thought about L21 and wondered if it were worth going straight for that or for the upgrade ~ when I've saved up my pennies that is!

I was also wondering about the Genographic Project test and whether that would provide the details that I am looking for, if my brother were to take it, since it seems that it could provide a whole raft of interesting results.

My Mum is Welsh, but with a mixed ancestry, including Irish, English and Greek, as well as Welsh blood, so the 'Geno 2.0' test might provide info on her background, too.

But do you happen to know if it would provide the necessary data regarding my Dad's background, please?

Thank you!
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Trish13
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2013, 12:15:38 AM »


Do you have a Ysearch ID? If so, it would be helpful to see who your closest matches are....

Hi.
This is it:
B4TS4
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 09:37:21 AM »

The Geno 2.0 would be fun, since it gives you a bunch of y-dna SNPs, as well as some autosomal and mtDNA results, but my own preference would be for the upgrade to more str markers.

I couldn't get that much out of your brother's Ysearch entry. More markers would be helpful.
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Trish13
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2013, 02:25:15 PM »

Thank you for trying and for your help :)
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 05:24:00 PM »


I certainly agree with Rich that more markers are essential for helping to determine your y/line origins. I would start with 67. You can always upgrade to 111 later.

For SNP testing, L21 is an excellent place to begin. It is very common amongst the Welsh, though other R1b subclades are found there as well, and as Rich mentions, L21 is found in other areas of Britain and even on the continent. You can order a stand alone test for L21 from FTDNA for $39.
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Trish13
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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2013, 05:41:13 PM »

Thanks GoldenHind for your advice :)

Now that I have received some expert opinions I can decide where to go next.

Thank you both. I'm very grateful! :)

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 01:14:41 PM »

You may consider Family Finder testing for aDNA matches. From those results you may submit to a Website called Gedmatch.com that extends the ability to find matches and utilize the 'ADMIXTURE-PROPORTIONS ANALYSIS' to see how your Admixiture breaks out with several systems that can calculate various Single and Mixed Mode Population Sharing percentages. My results example shows what type of info can be provided.

Map: http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/1kbacf6b/EuropeanautosomaladmixturesDodecadv3.png

MDLP K=12 Oracle

Kit M162635
K = 20
MinCount = 5

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Celto_Germanic 55.93
2 East_European 14.29
3 Paleo_Mediterranean 10.86
4 Iberian 7.26
5 Balto_Finnic 4.38
6 South_Central_Asian 2.53
7 Paleo_Balkanic 1.82
8 Volga_Uralic 1.32
9 Uralic_Permic 1.12
10 Caucasian 0.49

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 CEU (CEU) 5.22
2 GBRWAL (Welsh) 7.67
3 SWD (Swedish) 9.2
4 GBRKN (British from Kent) 9.72
5 GBRCORN (Cornish) 12.18
6 NRW (Norwegian) 14.33
7 GBRARG (British from Argyle) 17.11
8 GBRORK (Orcadian) 19.79
9 GER (German) 19.85
10 FRN (French) 20.07

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Trish13
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2013, 01:22:41 PM »

Hi Mark. :)

Thanks for commenting.

That's fascinating information!

Do the results fit with what you already knoew, or were there some surprises?

Do you know how reliable these results are?

Thanks :)
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Jdean
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2013, 02:17:05 PM »

I'm not sure I've got much faith in these population predictors though it's got to be said I'm never particularly sure what options to set.

These are the results for my mother, she has two 3 x G grandparents from the South of England, 3 from the Marches and 1 from Ireland the other 24 I know of are Welsh.

Kit F117897
K = 20
MinCount = 2

Admix Results (sorted):
#   Population      Percent
1   North_European      44.24
2   Atlantic_Med      39.84
3   Gedrosia      8.77
4   Caucasus      5.58
5   Southwest_Asian      0.71
6   Siberian         0.31
7   South_Asian      0.28
8   Northwest_African   0.22
9   East_African      0.05


Single Population Sharing:
#   Population    (source)      Distance
1   Dutch       (Dodecad)   1.95
2   Mixed_Germanic    (Dodecad)   2.37
3   Kent       (1000Genomes)   3.11
4   CEU30       (1000Genomes)   3.14
5   English       (Dodecad)   3.31
6   British_Isles    (Dodecad)   4.24
7   Cornwall    (1000Genomes)   5.65
8   British       (Dodecad)   5.67
9   Argyll       (1000Genomes)   6.25
10   Irish       (Dodecad)   6.3
11   Orkney       (1000Genomes)   6.33
12   Orcadian    (HGDP)      6.41
13   French       (Dodecad)   8.26
14   German       (Dodecad)   8.41
15   French       (HGDP)      8.85
16   Norwegian    (Dodecad)   11.39
17   Swedish    (Dodecad)   13.81
18   Hungarians    (Behar)      16.42
19   Cataluna    (1000Genomes)   21.42
20   Galicia       (1000Genomes)   22.43

« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 02:18:39 PM by Jdean » Logged

Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Mark Jost
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2013, 02:48:48 PM »

Hi Mark. :)

Thanks for commenting.

That's fascinating information!

Do the results fit with what you already knoew, or were there some surprises?

Do you know how reliable these results are?

Thanks :)

I have a heavy maternal GGrandfather Dutch with Deeper maternal GGgrandmother lineage SE Europe. My paternal is appearing to be UK based and not German as I once understood. My YDNA closest matches are UK/Scot, Isle of Man, Scottish and deeper Irish. Along with 3rd and fouth cousin aDNA matches within the last few generations from and in the Isles and mostly southeastern USA.

All of this is a new science alot done through amateurs who are using comparison data from the latest sources. A genealogical DNA test looks at a person's genetic code at specific locations. Results give information about genealogy or personal ancestry. Generally, these tests compare the results of an individual to others from the same lineage or to current and historic ethnic groups.

You will need to compare known paper to these results and make decisions based on how they both mesh.

MJost

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2013, 02:53:21 PM »

.

These are the results for my mother, she has two 3 x G grandparents from the South of England, 3 from the Marches and 1 from Ireland the other 24 I know of are Welsh.

The numbers look reasonable. Have submitted to McDonald and if so what did he report?

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Jdean
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« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2013, 03:00:50 PM »

.

These are the results for my mother, she has two 3 x G grandparents from the South of England, 3 from the Marches and 1 from Ireland the other 24 I know of are Welsh.

The numbers look reasonable. Have submitted to McDonald and if so what did he report?

MJost

I've heard people go on about him but thought he'd stopped doing that, how do you go about sending him your results ?
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Mark Jost
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« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2013, 03:17:31 PM »

.

These are the results for my mother, she has two 3 x G grandparents from the South of England, 3 from the Marches and 1 from Ireland the other 24 I know of are Welsh.

The numbers look reasonable. Have submitted to McDonald and if so what did he report?

MJost

I've heard people go on about him but thought he'd stopped doing that, how do you go about sending him your results ?

You can send him an email at jdmcdona@illinois.edu and give him an quick overview of you ancestors and ask if he will run your aDNA for you.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Jdean
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« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2013, 03:19:31 PM »

.

These are the results for my mother, she has two 3 x G grandparents from the South of England, 3 from the Marches and 1 from Ireland the other 24 I know of are Welsh.

The numbers look reasonable. Have submitted to McDonald and if so what did he report?

MJost

I've heard people go on about him but thought he'd stopped doing that, how do you go about sending him your results ?

You can send him an email at jdmcdona@illinois.edu and give him an quick overview of you ancestors and ask if he will run your aDNA for you.

MJost

Thanks !!! I'll give him a shout : )_
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Mark Jost
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2013, 03:26:27 PM »

Keep us posted as he provides great info.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Jdean
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2013, 03:32:38 PM »

Keep us posted as he provides great info.

MJost

Will do  : )_
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

Trish13
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 11:01:04 AM »

Thanks GoldenHind for your advice :)

Now that I have received some expert opinions I can decide where to go next.

Thank you both. I'm very grateful! :)

Just an update.

I have now ordered the upgrade to 37 markers for my brother and also an autosomal test for him.

When they are done, and we have the results, I'll decide where to go from there.

Thanks for all the advice :)
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rms2
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2013, 08:19:54 PM »

Here's something interesting from a recent edition of the Welsh tv program Corff Cymru about the differences between the Welsh and the English.  Dr. Grierson found a pretty startling difference between y-dna west and east of Offa's Dyke, the old boundary between Anglo-Saxon Mercia and the Welsh kingdom of Powys, or, more broadly, between Anglo-Saxon England and Wales. As you can see, on the west or Welsh side of Offa's Dyke, L21 runs around 50%, sometimes more. East of Offa's Dyke, in Shropshire, L21 drops to 25% of the total.

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Trish13
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« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2013, 06:04:45 AM »

Hi rms2 :)

Sorry it's taken so long for me to respond. That looks really interesting. I think that L21 is probably the way to go.
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Trish13
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« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2013, 10:56:52 PM »

We've had the result of the L21 test and it was positive. Our Y haplogroup for this line is now R1b1a2a1a1b4. Interesting. But where to now I wonder??
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rms2
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2013, 09:33:02 AM »

We've had the result of the L21 test and it was positive. Our Y haplogroup for this line is now R1b1a2a1a1b4. Interesting. But where to now I wonder??

Have you joined the R-L21 Plus Project?
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Trish13
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« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2013, 12:45:21 PM »

Hi, yes, rms2. I have joined that group.
I've also just received the Geno test for my brother to complete.
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