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Author Topic: 'O'Neill Variety' - DF27?  (Read 4498 times)
GoldenHind
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« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2013, 09:16:20 PM »


 Geno 2.0 does not even test for P312. My terminal SNP with them is P310.
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Webb
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« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2013, 09:25:18 PM »


 Geno 2.0 does not even test for P312. My terminal SNP with them is P310.

What???  That's rediculous. 
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William B. Webb
P312>DF27>Z220
GoldenHind
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« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2013, 09:37:07 PM »


 Geno 2.0 does not even test for P312. My terminal SNP with them is P310.

What???  That's rediculous. 

It may be ridiculous, but it is in fact true.
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MikeMcG
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« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2013, 10:04:28 PM »

Goldenhind – Thanks. I had previously used https://dl.dropbox.com/s/38oiefqdov6kwbo/ISOGG_SNP_Index_Geno_2.0.xls?dl=1 to find if  DF27 and its subclades were in Geno 2.0 because I had heard that DF27 was not included but some of its subclades were.  I have to admit I assumed that important SNPs like M269 and P312 were included,  but it appears at least from this list indicates they are not.  All the more reason to wait on Geno 2.0.

Mike
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Mike McG

FTDNA Y DNA67 Predicted M269+
23&me Y DNA R1b1b2a1a (L11?)
YSearch 4AKVE (DNA67 Haplotype DF27*)

FTDNA mtDNA T2b4-T152C!
23&me mtDNA T2b

Recent Ancestry:
50% Southern Irish (Cashel, Tipperary)
50% Southern English (London)
Webb
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« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2013, 10:07:11 PM »


 Geno 2.0 does not even test for P312. My terminal SNP with them is P310.

What???  That's rediculous. 

It may be ridiculous, but it is in fact true.

I am assuming, then, that you are true P312**?
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William B. Webb
P312>DF27>Z220
GoldenHind
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« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2013, 02:11:05 PM »


 Geno 2.0 does not even test for P312. My terminal SNP with them is P310.

What???  That's rediculous. 

It may be ridiculous, but it is in fact true.

I am assuming, then, that you are true P312**?

Correct.
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OConnor
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« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2013, 07:33:02 AM »

Surname acquisition and use became popular after the year 1200, did this also apply to Ireland?

If so there must be some mistakes when attempting to match ancient people with surnames and snp's found today.


  
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 08:31:36 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2013, 08:00:48 AM »

Surname acquisition and use became popular after the year 1200, did this also apply to Ireland?

If so there must be some mistakes when attempting to match ancient people with surnames and snp's


  

The most common surnames in Ireland were generally adopted in the 10th and 11th century. We tend to have oldest continously used surnames in Europe as a result. 

However surnames in Ireland are generally linked to Dynastical groupings which can hus be used to draw a picture back to at least the 7th century, this somewhat reflects the redrawing of irish proto-history in the Early Christian period and the shift to a dynastical/lineage based society from what would have been "tribal" in the pre-christian period.

A good example of course linguistically of this is the obseletion of term "Moccu" which was specifically tied to menaing "member of a tribe"

-Paul
(DF41+)
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MikeMcG
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2013, 05:39:48 PM »

I checked my YDNA67 against some of the Modals listed by Mikewww in R1b Modals in Ysearch and the C8WMT Dwyer/Ryan  Group which I am close to with the following results:

UserID______GD____ Last Name Origin
4AKVE______00____ McGrath Cashel, Tipperary, Ireland 
C8WMT_____03____ Dwyer/Ryan Tipperary and Limerick, Ireland  R1b1a2a1a1b* 
2YYB6______13____ R1b-L11* (S127*) Paragroup Modal*
6JCVN______13____ R1b-L2 (S139) and all Subclades Modal
QM4ES______13____ R1b-U152 (S28) and all Subclades Modal*
XQJ7H______14____ R1b-P312 (S116) and all Subclades Modal*
K9VGV_____16____ R1b-L21 (S145) and all Subclades Modal*
53ZBP______16____ R1b-DF27 and all Subclades Modal*
N5PA5______18____ R1b-U106 (S21) and all Subclades Modal*

Although everyone in the Dwyer/Ryan Group who has tested is DF27+ and negative for most of its subclades it seems there is a substantial variation with the  R1b-DF27 and all Subclades Modal.  When I get time I will go back and check some other Modals.

Mike
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Mike McG

FTDNA Y DNA67 Predicted M269+
23&me Y DNA R1b1b2a1a (L11?)
YSearch 4AKVE (DNA67 Haplotype DF27*)

FTDNA mtDNA T2b4-T152C!
23&me mtDNA T2b

Recent Ancestry:
50% Southern Irish (Cashel, Tipperary)
50% Southern English (London)
rms2
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« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2013, 03:59:45 AM »

Have you ordered the DF27 test yet, Mike? That would settle the issue of your possible relationship to the Dwyer/Ryan group at least.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2013, 09:29:58 AM »

I checked my YDNA67 against some of the Modals listed by Mikewww in R1b Modals in Ysearch and the C8WMT Dwyer/Ryan  Group which I am close to with the following results:

UserID______GD____ Last Name Origin
4AKVE______00____ McGrath Cashel, Tipperary, Ireland 
C8WMT_____03____ Dwyer/Ryan Tipperary and Limerick, Ireland  R1b1a2a1a1b* 
2YYB6______13____ R1b-L11* (S127*) Paragroup Modal*
6JCVN______13____ R1b-L2 (S139) and all Subclades Modal
QM4ES______13____ R1b-U152 (S28) and all Subclades Modal*
XQJ7H______14____ R1b-P312 (S116) and all Subclades Modal*
K9VGV_____16____ R1b-L21 (S145) and all Subclades Modal*
53ZBP______16____ R1b-DF27 and all Subclades Modal*
N5PA5______18____ R1b-U106 (S21) and all Subclades Modal*

Although everyone in the Dwyer/Ryan Group who has tested is DF27+ and negative for most of its subclades it seems there is a substantial variation with the  R1b-DF27 and all Subclades Modal.  When I get time I will go back and check some other Modals.

Mike

Mike, I wouldn't make too much of your GDs from those modals. GDs are just rough tools and there are a lot of crossing (converging) branches within R1b. That is why SNP testing is very important for R1b people.

I'm not familiar with the Dwyer/Ryan Group but if your GD is that close and they have some DF27+ people, that is as good as anything to go on for SNP test planning.  Can I find these people in a particular FTDNA project?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
chris1
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« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2013, 11:04:04 AM »

I've had a look at the haplotypes and Mike (266845 McGrath) matches all the seven Dwyer/Ryan group's key, shared off-modal markers over 67 markers: 390=25 (modal 24), 389ii=16 (17), 456=15 (16),  CDYa=33 (36), 534=14 (15), 444=24 (22), 481=21 (20). I think it's likely 266845 McGrath will be DF27+, like the others in the Dwyer/Ryan group.

172132 Francis Wilkinson b. 1763 Stockton-on-Tees, England matches 5 of those 7 key markers and is P312+, DF27+,  Z196-, L86.2+. However, the rest of the Dwyer/Ryan cluster appear to be turning up L86.2 negative, of those who tested for it.

http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/message/4521?o=1&d=-1
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MikeMcG
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« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2013, 12:04:47 PM »

Steve

The brief answer with respect to your question on the DF27 test is not yet. 

As you may remember from other posts I had originally planned to take the GENO 2.0 as a general SNP/clade test but also to have other information I might get to supplement or confirm results of my FTDNA “Complete Genome” test.   Even when I found out it would not confirm (although might eliminate) my being DF27* I was still leaning in this direction until someone pointed out GENO 2.0 only told him he was P310*.  As you probably know there is speculation that there will be an updated GENO (2.1?) and I am now willing to wait on news of that.  I will probably order DF37 within this year  if there is no further news of an updated GENO or if a better choice of an SNP test is not available.

Mike
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Mike McG

FTDNA Y DNA67 Predicted M269+
23&me Y DNA R1b1b2a1a (L11?)
YSearch 4AKVE (DNA67 Haplotype DF27*)

FTDNA mtDNA T2b4-T152C!
23&me mtDNA T2b

Recent Ancestry:
50% Southern Irish (Cashel, Tipperary)
50% Southern English (London)
MikeMcG
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« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2013, 02:04:42 PM »


Mike, I wouldn't make too much of your GDs from those modals. GDs are just rough tools and there are a lot of crossing (converging) branches within R1b. That is why SNP testing is very important for R1b people.

I'm not familiar with the Dwyer/Ryan Group but if your GD is that close and they have some DF27+ people, that is as good as anything to go on for SNP test planning.  Can I find these people in a particular FTDNA project?


Mike

 I am very new to DNA having only received my first results DNA67 about 2 months ago.  Initially I was trying to make sense that I had only one McGrath match out of more than 1,400 matches at DNA12 and none at DNA67.  My closest match (GD of 2) at DNA67 was someone with a Ray surname.  Also showing up as matches (GD >2) were many of the individuals in this Dwyer/Ryan Group.

I realize that these Modals are very generalized, heavily influenced by the individuals whose data is available and have to be used with caution.  I presume they are more accurate for terminal, or for a smaller geographic SNP.  In any case you and others who spend the time and effort to create these modal are certainly appreciated.  My post certainly was not intended to be a criticism but more to elicit comments.

I presume your DF27 Modal is heavily influenced by Z196 and other known subclades rather than “true” DF27* individuals (DF27+ and negative for its known subclades)?  Do you (or others) think I can draw the conclusion that the Southern Irish DF27+,  as defined by the Ryan/Dwyer Group modal, apparently separated from say the  rest of DF27 + and the rest of its subclades (other than L86.2) a long time ago, perhaps thousands of years ago; and is probably not the result of any Spanish Armada  sailors shipwrecked in 1588 AD on the southern Irish coast?  None of my FTDNA or Ysearch DNA67 matches within maximum allowed steps/GD appear to have Spanish surnames.
 
In addition to my surname project, I also joined the FTDNA Carroll project where Peter Biggins has been tracking the Dwyer/Ryan Group (AKA p2521) but some of these indivuals are also included in other projects such as the Ryan Project.  Peter has a summary on his website http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm
 
Mike
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Mike McG

FTDNA Y DNA67 Predicted M269+
23&me Y DNA R1b1b2a1a (L11?)
YSearch 4AKVE (DNA67 Haplotype DF27*)

FTDNA mtDNA T2b4-T152C!
23&me mtDNA T2b

Recent Ancestry:
50% Southern Irish (Cashel, Tipperary)
50% Southern English (London)
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