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Webb
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2013, 12:25:40 PM »

With the name O'Neil could it be they have a connection to Scotland's Barra Hebredian MacNeil's who have a large number in their study with an L165 SNP Terminal Clade.
Hello Scotsman. According to Dubhtach the O'Neill Variety are Z196-, MacLeods and MacNeil (L165) are Z196+. The YDNA link between DF27+ Z196- subclades like O'Neill Variety and DF27+ Z196+ MacLeods and MacNeils would have to be a few thousand years ago.

194727 Donald McDonald (m 1774, Knockando, Moray) Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
164691 Roger Terrill c. 1610 - 1682 Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
N60197 Roger Terrill, circa 1612 - 1682 England R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
65411 Angus MacNeil, b.c. 1780, Brevig, Barra, Scotland Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
99990 S68/L165+, earliest known ancestor: Sven Olofsson, Sweden R1b1a2  
40551 Thomas Greenwade USA Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b5b                          
220363 John McMillion, b. 1735/36, Virginia Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
46281 Donald McDonald b.c.1750 m.1785 Latheron Caithness Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
188925 John Ayton, c.1700-1754; New Buckenham, Norfolk England R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
163136 Thomas Ayton/Arton, c.1495 - aft. 1559; N. Yorks England R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
170048 John Brownson Sr.1550-1623 England R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
41571 Angus MacLeod, b.c.1745, Scotland, d. abt 1831 Sou Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
N9281   Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b                                                                            
213423 Norman McLeod b. 1809 Inverness, d. 1861 Fife Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
137480 Norman McLeod b. 1809 Inverness, d. 1861 Fife Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  
44377 Asa Smeathers (Beall) Scotland R1b1a2a1a1b5b  

These are the individuals listed under L165 in the P312 Project at FTDNA.  There is only one individual claiming Scandanavian origin.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 12:28:08 PM by Webb » Logged

William B. Webb
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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2013, 06:14:23 PM »

Now, you have a consensus that....   In other words, is there a double standard?

Webb,
I don't know what the real consensus among bloggers is, nor what the academic consensus, etc. You'd almost have to take surveys to figure out sentiment. I think of older prevailing views more as conventional wisdom. Perhaps we should say "who cares?" Well, unfortunately newbies pickup this stuff and tend to fall into the conventional wisdom and it takes a while to figure it out... so we do care.

Mikewww, let me try this differently.  From what I have read, the consensus for the origin of M222 is in Ireland, possibly with the Ui Niall.  

I actually am not one of those with the conventional wisdom on M222. I think what Paul D is saying makes a lot of sense.
I don't think M222 arose in Ireland, it's older then the timeframe for Niall anyways. That and highest diversity is probably in South Scotland/North England. What's interesting is to follow the SNP trail. We see for example DF23+/M222- cluster in Wales for example...
The proportion of M222 brothers, the DF23+ M222- guys, seems proportionally high in Wales.

The consensus for the origin of Irish type III is in Ireland and is associated with the O'Brians.  Even though these snp's are found outside of Ireland sporatically, the consensus is still an Irish origin.
It turns out Irish III is marked by an SNP called L226. What Paul is saying is true. L226 has a heavy concentration in Munster among people who think they are Dalcassian.
As for Irish Type III, the general age for the cluster is on order of 1200-1300 years that and the names tied to it are generally very much tied to that of Dál gCais dynastical grouping.
That doesn't mean that L226 had to originate there but it is a candidate area. There is an SNP right above L226, Z2534, so I've been looking for Z2534+ L226- people. There are a few, but the problem is L226's STR signature is so distinct it doesn't look like anyone is closely related to L226. I don't think it is a given that L226 has to be from Ireland. Certainly Britain is in the vicinity. I do get slightly higher STR variance for L226 in England versus Ireland but I don't think it significant enough to tell much.

Now, you have a consensus that m153 originated with the basque area of France and Spain.  The next snp upstream, Z214 is found in the same vicinity, and because there are a small, smattering of m153 outside the basque region, then there's a possibility M153 originated somewhere else?
My original point was really just that M153 might not be from Basque Country (in capital letters - the specific zone.)  I think there is a real chance it is from some place in France outside of the Basque Country. I say that just because M153's brothers and cousins in Z220 (part of the old North-South cluster) are so spread out. I think you've already looked at Z214+ M153-. I think that is a good thing to do. How widespread are the Z214+ M153- people? How many do we know of?

Did you say someone tracked down the M153+ person in the Old Norway? Do we know it is a recent migration?

To be clear, I certainly wouldn't rule out Basque Country as the origin for M153.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 06:18:25 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2013, 04:51:12 AM »

At least three DF27+ results this morning in the Ireland project including Stewart (94023) who looks like O'Neill Variety on his matches.

-Paul
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chris1
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2013, 06:26:31 AM »

Thanks Paul, yes 94023 has the same off-modal markers as other O'Neill Variety. Also, I see three of the thirteen DF27+ on the SNP page of your Ireland project at the moment are Rox2 matches. One states unknown origin and two are from Scotland.
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« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2013, 01:19:06 PM »

Thanks Paul, yes 94023 has the same off-modal markers as other O'Neill Variety. Also, I see three of the thirteen DF27+ on the SNP page of your Ireland project at the moment are Rox2 matches. One states unknown origin and two are from Scotland.

Chris, I tested for DF79 yesterday.  I believe there are a few DF27+Z196-, that have tested as well.  I will post somewhere in here when my results come back.  My terminal is Z220, but maybe depending on if I am positive or negative, we can see where the four new DF's might be placed.
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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2013, 03:08:33 PM »


Now, you have a consensus that m153 originated with the basque area of France and Spain.  The next snp upstream, Z214 is found in the same vicinity, and because there are a small, smattering of m153 outside the basque region, then there's a possibility M153 originated somewhere else?

My original point was really just that M153 might not be from Basque Country (in capital letters - the specific zone.)  I think there is a real chance it is from some place in France outside of the Basque Country. I say that just because M153's brothers and cousins in Z220 (part of the old North-South cluster) are so spread out. I think you've already looked at Z214+ M153-. I think that is a good thing to do. How widespread are the Z214+ M153- people? How many do we know of?

Does anyone know the number and distribution of Z214+ M153- folks?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 03:09:22 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Webb
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2013, 05:40:48 PM »


Now, you have a consensus that m153 originated with the basque area of France and Spain.  The next snp upstream, Z214 is found in the same vicinity, and because there are a small, smattering of m153 outside the basque region, then there's a possibility M153 originated somewhere else?

My original point was really just that M153 might not be from Basque Country (in capital letters - the specific zone.)  I think there is a real chance it is from some place in France outside of the Basque Country. I say that just because M153's brothers and cousins in Z220 (part of the old North-South cluster) are so spread out. I think you've already looked at Z214+ M153-. I think that is a good thing to do. How widespread are the Z214+ M153- people? How many do we know of?

Does anyone know the number and distribution of Z214+ M153- folks?

Jf. R1b-Z214 (Subclade of Z278)
N50965 Joseph Trinquier, b. c. 1670 Tarerach (Trahac), Fr France R1b1a2a1a1b
B1595 Juan Melendez Centeno 1867-1902 Puerto Rico Spain R1b1a2a1a1b  
178151 Francisco Carmona Lopez, 1670-1738, Marchena, Spai Spain R1b1a2a1a1b  
N34178 Juan Eusebio Robles, b. 1788, Fajardo, Puerto Rico Spain R1b1a2a1a1b  
N103224 Agustin Elarre (Hacia 1720) Navarre (Basque) Sp                                                  

Jg. R1b-M153 (subclade of Z214)
209822 Juan Cristobal Crespin, born c. 1800 Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b2  
159918 Francisco Quijano Y Jimenez, ~ 1874 Galicia,Spain Spain R1b1a2a1a1b2              
97776 Alexandre Sallaberry, 1831, Sames, France France R1b1a2a1a1b2                    
85359 Arnault Sallaberry (1606) Bidache, France France R1b1a2a1a1b2  
74765 Baerga, Puerto Rico Unknown Origin                                                                        
N66037 Miguel Bravo , b.1720 Leon, , Spain R1b1a2a1a1b2  
113915 Jose Monesterio y Sagastiechea Jaureguzar, b. 1690 Spain R1b1a2a1a1b2            
88532 Antonio Guerra, b.c. 1603, Llanes, Asturias, Spain Spain R1b1a2a1a1b2              
76019 Marcos de Aguirregoitia (Icaza) España,1600(Spain) Spain R1b1a2a1a1b2  

Mikewww, these are the current individuals in the P312 and Sublcades project.  I cut and pasted both Z214 and M153.  According to the DF27 Phylogenic Post on this site the age for Z278 is 625B.C and the age for M153 is 215A.D.  There is no age given for Z214, but you would have to assume it is somewhere inbetween the two.  The areas of the French participants are, I believe, on the opposite side of the Ebro River Valley.  This is why I was trying to start with M153, which is in a tight circle and expand outwards geographicaly and upward the phylogenic tree to get a handle on when Z220 could have been in these areas.  Z278 has 2 Brits, 1 German and a number of Spanish and French participants as well.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 05:55:50 PM by Webb » Logged

William B. Webb
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2013, 07:51:57 PM »

I think DF27 in the isles is an interesting subject.  I presume the vast majority of P312XU152XL21XSRY2627 is DF27.  It must be another minor stream in isles history but its not discussed that much.  Whatever it origin the main concentration is SW Europe, to the south and west of the L21 world. What would be the best distribution map of this on a European scale?  I suppose any study which used the SNPs listed above and had a P312* category is close to a DF27 map.
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razyn
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« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2013, 08:14:31 PM »

I think DF27 in the isles is an interesting subject.  I presume the vast majority of P312XU152XL21XSRY2627 is DF27.  It must be another minor stream in isles history but its not discussed that much.  Whatever it origin the main concentration is SW Europe, to the south and west of the L21 world. What would be the best distribution map of this on a European scale?  I suppose any study which used the SNPs listed above and had a P312* category is close to a DF27 map.

Why XSRY2627?  That's part of DF27.  And that "main concentration" idea is based on absence of evidence, not evidence of absence, elsewhere.  We have pretty good evidence for some of Iberia's DF27 (but not even France's, really) because that's who got tested for 1000 Genomes.
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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2013, 07:41:37 AM »

Thanks Paul, yes 94023 has the same off-modal markers as other O'Neill Variety. Also, I see three of the thirteen DF27+ on the SNP page of your Ireland project at the moment are Rox2 matches. One states unknown origin and two are from Scotland.

Chris, I tested for DF79 yesterday.  I believe there are a few DF27+Z196-, that have tested as well.  I will post somewhere in here when my results come back.  My terminal is Z220, but maybe depending on if I am positive or negative, we can see where the four new DF's might be placed.

Hello William, look forward to hearing the result. I'm trying to equate the many anonymous sounding 'code names' with related groups - luckily familiarity with them seems to kick in eventually. It seems at the moment (someone correct me if wrong) that no one knows where DF79, DF81 and DF84 are below DF27 yet. DF83 looks to be Z196- I think.

Here's hoping one or two of them, or some in the future, might be subclades as old as Z196, ie. Z196's DF27+ 'brothers' from a few thousand years ago. There are many such subclades under L21/DF13, found since 2008.

Being Z220, at least you know you are Z196+ and Z209+. DF27* Rox2 and others are Z196- and without a currently known large derived subclade under DF27. That rules out a large part of known DF27 (Z196) being recent relations. That is why I was interested to hear that O'Neill Variety are likely to be DF27+/Z196- too, the subject of this thread.  There's a chance they might share the same SNP downstream of DF27.

There don't seem to be many SNP explorers as we get into uncharted DF27 territory. Bob Dickinson, from our Rox2 cluster, has ordered all 4 of the latest ones available from FTDNA, he mentioned them after his Geno 2.0 test produced no new SNPs, they are:

DF79 - below DF27
DF81 - below DF27
DF83 - below DF27
DF84 - below DF27

Regarding the above tests, two people are DF27+/DF83+, Walden (kit 9893) and Noble (kit 235308). Noble is also Z196-. They are both also CTS6519+ (their subclade below DF83). Maybe DF83 is old.

I gather another DF27*, Ant Brickell (kit H1763), has ordered DF79, DF81, DF83 and DF84 too and is waiting for the results.
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« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2013, 09:18:41 AM »

Chris, I'm at the end of my run for the north/south cluster.  I keep a DNA slush fund for myself, so I don't mind testing for snp's.  Since I am 196+, then we should know where these four new ones fall depending on my results and others.
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« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2013, 07:43:53 AM »

Does anyone know anything about the "Dwyer/Ryan Group" (Ysearch C8WMT) from Tipperary and Limerick that has tested DF27+ Z196-?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults

When I first saw the haplotype, I thought it looked like some kind of DF49, given the 390=25 and the 481=24.

There is a McGrath who traces his line to Cashel in County Tipperary (these places have more meaning for me now that I have been there and seen them) who matches the Dwyer/Ryan thing pretty closely (Ysearch 4AKVE).

Since DF27 outnumbers U106 and U152 in Ireland, at least judging from the Busby data, perhaps it, unlike them, did not arrive mostly with the English but is of more ancient provenance there.

This group in County Tipperary is interesting.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 07:45:17 AM by rms2 » Logged

Webb
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« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2013, 09:55:04 AM »

Does anyone know anything about the "Dwyer/Ryan Group" (Ysearch C8WMT) from Tipperary and Limerick that has tested DF27+ Z196-?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults

When I first saw the haplotype, I thought it looked like some kind of DF49, given the 390=25 and the 481=24.

There is a McGrath who traces his line to Cashel in County Tipperary (these places have more meaning for me now that I have been there and seen them) who matches the Dwyer/Ryan thing pretty closely (Ysearch 4AKVE).

Since DF27 outnumbers U106 and U152 in Ireland, at least judging from the Busby data, perhaps it, unlike them, did not arrive mostly with the English but is of more ancient provenance there.

This group in County Tipperary is interesting.

RM2, in that same cluster on the P312 group is also a Cannady and a Carroll.  I do not know if they have tested Z196 or not.  Carroll is claiming ancestry to Limerick.
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« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2013, 11:21:11 AM »

Does anyone know anything about the "Dwyer/Ryan Group" (Ysearch C8WMT) from Tipperary and Limerick that has tested DF27+ Z196-?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults

When I first saw the haplotype, I thought it looked like some kind of DF49, given the 390=25 and the 481=24.

There is a McGrath who traces his line to Cashel in County Tipperary (these places have more meaning for me now that I have been there and seen them) who matches the Dwyer/Ryan thing pretty closely (Ysearch 4AKVE).

Since DF27 outnumbers U106 and U152 in Ireland, at least judging from the Busby data, perhaps it, unlike them, did not arrive mostly with the English but is of more ancient provenance there.

This group in County Tipperary is interesting.

RM2, in that same cluster on the P312 group is also a Cannady and a Carroll.  I do not know if they have tested Z196 or not.  Carroll is claiming ancestry to Limerick.

Yeah, it looks like a native group with more than one Gaelic surname involved.
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« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2013, 11:38:56 AM »

Does anyone know anything about the "Dwyer/Ryan Group" (Ysearch C8WMT) from Tipperary and Limerick that has tested DF27+ Z196-?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ryan/default.aspx?section=yresults

When I first saw the haplotype, I thought it looked like some kind of DF49, given the 390=25 and the 481=24.

There is a McGrath who traces his line to Cashel in County Tipperary (these places have more meaning for me now that I have been there and seen them) who matches the Dwyer/Ryan thing pretty closely (Ysearch 4AKVE).

Since DF27 outnumbers U106 and U152 in Ireland, at least judging from the Busby data, perhaps it, unlike them, did not arrive mostly with the English but is of more ancient provenance there.

This group in County Tipperary is interesting.

RM2, in that same cluster on the P312 group is also a Cannady and a Carroll.  I do not know if they have tested Z196 or not.  Carroll is claiming ancestry to Limerick.

Yeah, it looks like a native group with more than one Gaelic surname involved.

I wonder what accounts for it: A really ancient group from Iberia? An old but more recent group from Gaul, perhaps refugees from the Roman conquest of Gaul?

Perhaps Paul knows some bit of ancient history from that area of Ireland that might hold some clues.
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« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2013, 11:54:05 AM »

Well especially when you consider the number of native Irish surnames that show up among DF27+ (and subclades). This would at least point to an early arrival (perhaps co-travelers with L21)

--
Ó DUBHUIDHIR—I—O Duvire, O Duire, O'Dwyer, Dwyer, Dwire, &c.; 'descendant of Dubhodhar' (black Odhar); also written Ó Duibhidhir, which see; the name of a Tipperary family, of Leinster origin, who were chiefs of Coill na manach, now the barony of Kilnamanagh, in the west of that county. Philip O'Dwyer and Owen O'Dwyer were exempted from pardon for life and estate in the Cromwellian Act of 1652. Some of the name held high rank in the service of France, Austria and Russia. The name is now common in all the south of Ireland. Ó Duibhidhir is also a Donegal name, but whether or not the family is a branch of that of Tipperary, I am unable to say.
--
--
Ó MAOILRIAGHAIN, Ó MAOILRIAIN—I—O Mulrigan, O Mulryan, O Mulrean, Mulryan, Mulroyan, Mulryne, Mulrine, Mulrain, O'Ryan, Ryan; 'descendant of Maolriain' (follower of Riaghan or Rian); the name of a family of Leinster origin who settled in the 13th or 14th century in Uaithne-tire and Uaithne-cliach, now the baronies of Owney, in Co. Tipperary, and Owneybeg, in the east of Co. Limerick, where they became very numerous and powerful. In 1610, William Ryan surrendered to the. king all his landed property and all his rights of or in the barony of Owney O Mulrian, and received them back by letters patent. The family property was, however, lost in the confiscations of the 17th century. There are many very respectable families of the name in Tipperary and Limerick, and the name itself is very common in these counties. It is to be distinguished from Ó Riain, which see.
--
Ó RIAGHAIN, Ó RIAIN—I—O Rian, O'Ryan, Ryan: 'descendant of Riaghan,' or 'Rian'; the name of a Carlow family who were lords of Uí Dróna, the present barony of Idrone, and are now numerous through Leinster; to be distinguished from Ó Maoilriain of Munster and Ó Ruaidhín of Connacht, which are both now incorrectly anglicised O'Ryan or Ryan.
--

McGrath in munster context is usually associated with the "Dál gCais" (O'Brien's et al, thence L226+)
--
Mag RAITH—IV—Magrath, Magragh, MacGrath, MacGragh, Megrath, Magraw, MacGraw, Megraw, MacGra, &c.; 'son of Mac Raith' (son of grace, or prosperity; a not uncommon Irish personal name); also written Mac Craith, Mag Craith, Mac Graith, Mac Raith, and Mag Ratha, which see; the name (1) of a Donegal family, the head of which was coarb of St. Daveog, or erenagh of Termon Daveog, now Termon Magrath, at Lough Derg, and resided at the Castle of Termon Magrath at the northern extremity of Lough Erne, about half a mile west of Pettigo; (2) of a Thomond family who were hereditary poets and chroniclers to the O'Briens; (3) of a Scottish family in Kintail (see Mac Raith), some of whom settled in the north of Ireland. The Magraths were also at one time an influential family in Co. Waterford; and there are, doubtless, many minor families of the name about which history is silent. The name is now very common all over Ireland.
--
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« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2013, 12:04:16 PM »

Well historians have been talking for last century or so that some elements in Munster were quite later arrivals potentially from Gaul. For example this is often argued for the Eoghanacht (Irish Type II?) as well as for the Déise of Waterford.

A name found on an Ogham Stone in Waterford is: NETASEGAMONAS

It's been argued that this is a compound of a Gaulish god's name eg. Segomo (war god)

Think of it this way if you are sailing from Brittany the first part of Ireland you hit is the coast of Munster from Waterford west to Cork.

The names mentioned above some of them also show up in "Irish Type IV/Continetal" Cluster which also has lots of hits in Tippeary area. I believe it has it's own SNP under Z253 now.

What we thus could be seeing is an echo of movement in period 100BC-100AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nia_Segamain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segomo

Interesting of course is that some have argued that the Dál gCais were a branch of the Déisi who moved north and conquored what is now Co. Clare from the province of Connacht. This would have occurred after the decline of the "Uí Fiachrach Aidhne" overkingship in South Galway. (Uí Fiachrach descended from Fiachrae the half-brother of Niall). It is intersting that the Dál gCais seem to be Z253+ like Irish Type IV, but quite a different haplotype and obviously have their own snp in form of L226.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais

-Paul
(DF41+)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:05:09 PM by Dubhthach » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2013, 12:38:23 PM »

Well historians have been talking for last century or so that some elements in Munster were quite later arrivals potentially from Gaul. For example this is often argued for the Eoghanacht (Irish Type II?) as well as for the Déise of Waterford.

A name found on an Ogham Stone in Waterford is: NETASEGAMONAS

It's been argued that this is a compound of a Gaulish god's name eg. Segomo (war god)

Think of it this way if you are sailing from Brittany the first part of Ireland you hit is the coast of Munster from Waterford west to Cork.

The names mentioned above some of them also show up in "Irish Type IV/Continetal" Cluster which also has lots of hits in Tippeary area. I believe it has it's own SNP under Z253 now.

What we thus could be seeing is an echo of movement in period 100BC-100AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nia_Segamain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segomo

Interesting of course is that some have argued that the Dál gCais were a branch of the Déisi who moved north and conquored what is now Co. Clare from the province of Connacht. This would have occurred after the decline of the "Uí Fiachrach Aidhne" overkingship in South Galway. (Uí Fiachrach descended from Fiachrae the half-brother of Niall). It is intersting that the Dál gCais seem to be Z253+ like Irish Type IV, but quite a different haplotype and obviously have their own snp in form of L226.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais

-Paul
(DF41+)


Very interesting!

I don't know the answer, but the possibility that this DF27+ Z196- group represents descent from Gaulish refugees from the Roman conquest of Gaul is intriguing.

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« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2013, 01:09:25 PM »

Well historians have been talking for last century or so that some elements in Munster were quite later arrivals potentially from Gaul. For example this is often argued for the Eoghanacht (Irish Type II?) as well as for the Déise of Waterford.

A name found on an Ogham Stone in Waterford is: NETASEGAMONAS

It's been argued that this is a compound of a Gaulish god's name eg. Segomo (war god)

Think of it this way if you are sailing from Brittany the first part of Ireland you hit is the coast of Munster from Waterford west to Cork.

The names mentioned above some of them also show up in "Irish Type IV/Continetal" Cluster which also has lots of hits in Tippeary area. I believe it has it's own SNP under Z253 now.

What we thus could be seeing is an echo of movement in period 100BC-100AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nia_Segamain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segomo

Interesting of course is that some have argued that the Dál gCais were a branch of the Déisi who moved north and conquored what is now Co. Clare from the province of Connacht. This would have occurred after the decline of the "Uí Fiachrach Aidhne" overkingship in South Galway. (Uí Fiachrach descended from Fiachrae the half-brother of Niall). It is intersting that the Dál gCais seem to be Z253+ like Irish Type IV, but quite a different haplotype and obviously have their own snp in form of L226.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais

-Paul
(DF41+)


Very interesting!

I don't know the answer, but the possibility that this DF27+ Z196- group represents descent from Gaulish refugees from the Roman conquest of Gaul is intriguing.



The Coriondi (Κοριονδοί) were a people of early Ireland, referred to in Ptolemy's 2nd century Geography as living in southern Leinster.[1] MacNeill identifies a later Irish group, the Coraind, in the Boyne valley, who may be the same people.[2] Other possibly related names include the Corcu Cuirnd,[2] Cuirennrige and Dál Cuirind in early medieval Ireland, and in Britain, the Corionototae, known from an inscription in Hexham, Northumberland, and Corinion, the Brythonic name for Cirencester, Gloucestershire.[1] The element *corio- also occurs in Gaulish personal and tribal names, usually taken to mean an army or troop of warriors [3]

The Cauci (Καῦκοι) were a people of early Ireland, uniquely documented in Ptolemy's 2nd-century Geography, which locates them roughly in the region of modern County Dublin and County Wicklow.[1] From the early 19th century, comparative linguists, notably Lorenz Diefenbach, identified the Cauci with the Germanic Chauci of the Low Countries and north-western Germany, a parallel already drawn by earlier antiquarian scholarship.[2] Proponents of this view also pointed to the fact that the Manapii (Μανάπιοι), who in Ptolemy's map border the Cauci to the south, likewise bear a name that is almost identical to that of another continental tribe, the Belgic Menapii in north-eastern Gaul. This correspondence appeared to testify to population movements between the two regions. The linguistic aspect of this hypothesis was most recently (1917) developed by Julius Pokorny,[3] although the Cauci-Chauci association is not universally accepted.[4] This early scholarship also drew attention to apparent parallels among Celtic or Celticized peoples of the Iberian peninsula, specifically a leader of the Lusitani named Kaukainos (Καυκαῖνος), and a city called Kauka (Καύκα) (modern Coca), inhabited by Kaukaioi (Καυκαῖοι), among the Vaccaei, a prominent Celtiberian people.[5] With regard to possible descendants of the Irish Cauci, Pokorny and Ó Briain[6] respectively favoured the obscure medieval septs of Uí Cuaich and Cuachraige, though in neither case has a connection been demonstrated.

Both of these were taken from Wiki.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2013, 05:07:29 PM »

This Irish DF27+ discussion is of interest to me because I recently received my DNA67 results (Feb 2013) and from my matches it appears I most probably will be DF27+ and perhaps negative for all the present known subclades.  I am in the McGrath project and also in the Carroll project where there is a Dwyer/Ryan sub category.  Peter, the admin of the Carroll project, has listed some of the DNA67 and limited SNP results for this Dwyer/Ryan group on the lower part of his web page,  http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm    I was originally going to test with Geno 2.0 in part to look for SNPs but since I understand Geno 2.0 does not include DF27 I may just wait for some updated version.  I have not yet decided whether or not to just test for DF27 alone since this is appears to be a large diverse European group and would not give me much more info beyond confirming that I am in fact DF27+

Mike
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Mike McG

FTDNA Y DNA67 Predicted M269+
23&me Y DNA R1b1b2a1a (L11?)
YSearch 4AKVE (DNA67 Haplotype DF27*)
Yseq DF27+, Z2571-

FTDNA mtDNA T2b4-T152C!
23&me mtDNA T2b

Recent Ancestry:
50% Southern Irish (Cashel, Tipperary)
50% Southern English (London)
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« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2013, 07:19:56 PM »

This Irish DF27+ discussion is of interest to me because I recently received my DNA67 results (Feb 2013) and from my matches it appears I most probably will be DF27+ and perhaps negative for all the present known subclades.  I am in the McGrath project and also in the Carroll project where there is a Dwyer/Ryan sub category.  Peter, the admin of the Carroll project, has listed some of the DNA67 and limited SNP results for this Dwyer/Ryan group on the lower part of his web page,  http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm    I was originally going to test with Geno 2.0 in part to look for SNPs but since I understand Geno 2.0 does not include DF27 I may just wait for some updated version.  I have not yet decided whether or not to just test for DF27 alone since this is appears to be a large diverse European group and would not give me much more info beyond confirming that I am in fact DF27+

Mike

Hi, Mike! Glad you're here!

(I'm "Stevo" over at FTDNA's forum.)
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« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2013, 08:47:14 PM »

This Irish DF27+ discussion is of interest to me because I recently received my DNA67 results (Feb 2013) and from my matches it appears I most probably will be DF27+ and perhaps negative for all the present known subclades.  I am in the McGrath project and also in the Carroll project where there is a Dwyer/Ryan sub category.  Peter, the admin of the Carroll project, has listed some of the DNA67 and limited SNP results for this Dwyer/Ryan group on the lower part of his web page,  http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm    I was originally going to test with Geno 2.0 in part to look for SNPs but since I understand Geno 2.0 does not include DF27 I may just wait for some updated version.  I have not yet decided whether or not to just test for DF27 alone since this is appears to be a large diverse European group and would not give me much more info beyond confirming that I am in fact DF27+

Mike

You should most definitely test for DF27. If you get a positive result, you can start negotiating the SNPs beneath DF27. The administrator of the R1b-P312 & Subclades Project (assuming you are a member- if not, you should join) is very knowledgeable about the structure of DF27 and is happy to steer people through the maze. If you chose to wait for an upgraded Geno project to resolve your status, you may have quite a wait.
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« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2013, 03:57:50 PM »

My reasoning with Geno 2.0 vs DF27 testing is as follows:

I have not yet had any YDNA SNP tests.  FTDNA predicts I am YDNA M269+. Before I received my DNA67 results and based on other McGrath results I would have been willing to bet money I was P312+, L21+, and the question seemed to be whether I would be L226+ or M222+ . After getting my DNA67 results I seemed to have a better fit with the Dwyer/Ryan group (previously identified by Mike Walsh as p2521) and so now think it is more likely I am DF27.

The website http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm indicates that a total of 67 people have been found to have Dwyer/Ryan DNA. Some have been tested for SNP with the following results:

The P312 SNP test is positive for 13 members.
The DF27 SNP is positive for 9 members and therefore it is thought likely that all Dwyer/Ryans have the DF27 SNP.
L617 is negative for one
Z196 is negative for five.
L1231 is negative for one.
L86.2 is negative for two and positive for two with the surname Wilkinson.
Z225 is negative for one.
L881 has not been tested by a Dwyer/Ryan group member. 
One of the Wilkinsons participated in Geno 2.0, but no new SNPs were found.

At this point I do not know for sure if I am P312+ or even M269+ for that matter.  Geno 2.0 would at least resolve  P312, and L21 and some of its subclades vs L86.2 and some other subclades of DF27.  If I were P312+ and negative for everything below that it would increase the probability that I am DF27+. Also L86.2+ or positive for other DF27 subclades would confirm DF27+. There is additional info other than YDNA to be gained from Geno 2.0 that I would be interested in, but I have also been reading there are some problems with the present chip and there is speculation it may be upgraded, as a minimum, to fix any problems. This causes me to want to wait anyway. In the meanwhile I have not yet started to look in any detail at my FTDNA Family Finder or mtDNA results so I have other things to keep me busy.
My thoughts are if there is an upgrade to Geno 2 with in the next year or so then I will probably test with that.  If at that time Geno 2 still does not  include DF27 and I am P213+ (and negative to every thing below P213) then I will test for DF27 unless some other more likely “Dwyer/Ryan” group SNP is discovered and available in the meantime.
As a side comment, as someone very new to DNA I find the shorthand YDNA SNP nomenclature convenient but very difficult to follow as to where they fit in.  Although there were differences between ISOGG and YCC2010 in the “R1b1a2a1a1b” (for example) form of nomenclature that initially confused me, at least they both seemed to be a logical progression.  I presume the long form was abandoned in part because of the difficulties in fitting in new intermediate SNPs but the present shorthand scheme seems me to have no logic in terms of a YDNA tree and nor in how these SNPs fit together or have evolved.  It will be interesting to see how the shorthand nomenclature is used in migration maps if at all.     
Thanks for your comments
Mike 
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Mike McG

FTDNA Y DNA67 Predicted M269+
23&me Y DNA R1b1b2a1a (L11?)
YSearch 4AKVE (DNA67 Haplotype DF27*)
Yseq DF27+, Z2571-

FTDNA mtDNA T2b4-T152C!
23&me mtDNA T2b

Recent Ancestry:
50% Southern Irish (Cashel, Tipperary)
50% Southern English (London)
Webb
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« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2013, 04:32:29 PM »

My reasoning with Geno 2.0 vs DF27 testing is as follows:

I have not yet had any YDNA SNP tests.  FTDNA predicts I am YDNA M269+. Before I received my DNA67 results and based on other McGrath results I would have been willing to bet money I was P312+, L21+, and the question seemed to be whether I would be L226+ or M222+ . After getting my DNA67 results I seemed to have a better fit with the Dwyer/Ryan group (previously identified by Mike Walsh as p2521) and so now think it is more likely I am DF27.

The website http://www.peterspioneers.com/ryanlearycarrolldna.htm indicates that a total of 67 people have been found to have Dwyer/Ryan DNA. Some have been tested for SNP with the following results:

The P312 SNP test is positive for 13 members.
The DF27 SNP is positive for 9 members and therefore it is thought likely that all Dwyer/Ryans have the DF27 SNP.
L617 is negative for one
Z196 is negative for five.
L1231 is negative for one.
L86.2 is negative for two and positive for two with the surname Wilkinson.
Z225 is negative for one.
L881 has not been tested by a Dwyer/Ryan group member. 
One of the Wilkinsons participated in Geno 2.0, but no new SNPs were found.

At this point I do not know for sure if I am P312+ or even M269+ for that matter.  Geno 2.0 would at least resolve  P312, and L21 and some of its subclades vs L86.2 and some other subclades of DF27.  If I were P312+ and negative for everything below that it would increase the probability that I am DF27+. Also L86.2+ or positive for other DF27 subclades would confirm DF27+. There is additional info other than YDNA to be gained from Geno 2.0 that I would be interested in, but I have also been reading there are some problems with the present chip and there is speculation it may be upgraded, as a minimum, to fix any problems. This causes me to want to wait anyway. In the meanwhile I have not yet started to look in any detail at my FTDNA Family Finder or mtDNA results so I have other things to keep me busy.
My thoughts are if there is an upgrade to Geno 2 with in the next year or so then I will probably test with that.  If at that time Geno 2 still does not  include DF27 and I am P213+ (and negative to every thing below P213) then I will test for DF27 unless some other more likely “Dwyer/Ryan” group SNP is discovered and available in the meantime.
As a side comment, as someone very new to DNA I find the shorthand YDNA SNP nomenclature convenient but very difficult to follow as to where they fit in.  Although there were differences between ISOGG and YCC2010 in the “R1b1a2a1a1b” (for example) form of nomenclature that initially confused me, at least they both seemed to be a logical progression.  I presume the long form was abandoned in part because of the difficulties in fitting in new intermediate SNPs but the present shorthand scheme seems me to have no logic in terms of a YDNA tree and nor in how these SNPs fit together or have evolved.  It will be interesting to see how the shorthand nomenclature is used in migration maps if at all.     
Thanks for your comments
Mike 

Keep in mind that though Geno does not test for DF27 in particular, it does test for a number of downstream SNP's of DF27.  However, if you end up being Z196-, and Geno does not test for DF27 you might be left with just P312.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2013, 08:36:05 PM »

You also get some mtDNA and autosomal testing with the Geno 2.0.
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