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gashi91
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« Reply #100 on: April 02, 2013, 01:18:47 PM »

I don't know why he placed me in L23.2. Actually I find it a bit hard to understand about this "back mutation", also L150.2.
How can I be R-M269 and R-L150?

And, what is this DYS617=8? What would this mean, what do these markers tell me at all?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #101 on: April 03, 2013, 05:01:00 AM »

And, what is this DYS617=8? What would this mean, what do these markers tell me at all?

This marker has a modal value of 12 and a few mutations around it. 8 is very rare and probably a multistep mutation, i.e. from 12 to 8.
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Maliclavelli


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Trish13
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« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2013, 05:29:45 PM »

Hi again :)

Well, back to 'Our L23 Ancestors - Svombo', we seem to have the full set for the Balkan / Albanian cluster:

DYS385 a+b: 11-11

DYS426: 12

DYS446: 14

DYS459 a+b: 8-10

DYS464: 14-16-16-17

DYS572 = 10


Is this a cluster that may still be found in large numbers in Albania, or is it mostly related to people whose ancestors left the area known as Albania, many centuries ago?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 05:30:04 PM by Trish13 » Logged
gashi91
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« Reply #103 on: May 07, 2013, 10:08:27 AM »

Hi! After a while now, I've got new results about my SNP.
 L49-
What does this mean?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #104 on: May 07, 2013, 10:31:32 AM »

It does mean that you are R-M269* and not R-L23. Another time the administrators of "ht 35 FTDNA Project" haven't understood anything, because they put you amongst the R-L23 and not amongst the R-M269.

Once more I have understood more than them. It wasn't your L23- which failed, but your L150+ which was right and you, like the Jew Fabrikant, have had a mutation of it. You are the only R-M269* who are also L150+. Interesting to understand if you are a Jew or is the Jew who came from the Balkans.
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Maliclavelli


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gashi91
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« Reply #105 on: May 07, 2013, 10:41:05 AM »

Ok. I've never heard anything about any Jewish ancestry in my family. Not in modern or past history. Being catholic Christians since long time before the occupation of the Ottoman Empire. Today they are a "light" version of sunni muslims, as 90% of Albanians in Kosovo.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 10:54:14 AM by gashi91 » Logged

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seferhabahir
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« Reply #106 on: May 07, 2013, 11:03:39 AM »


....You are the only R-M269* who are also L150+. Interesting to understand if you are a Jew or is the Jew who came from the Balkans.


Well,

One of my Jewish cousins recently received Geno 2.0 results. He is R-M269* and L150+ and has three new SNP mutations - PF7558, PF7562, PF7563. Are there any other Geno 2.0 results with any of these, as they may be a clue for clearing up confusion for L23- and L150+ people. Geno 2.0 marked PF7558 as his terminal SNP, so these three may or may not be phylogenetically equivalent. FTDNA does not yet offer them as advanced tests.


« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 11:04:31 AM by seferhabahir » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #107 on: May 07, 2013, 11:10:06 AM »


....You are the only R-M269* who are also L150+. Interesting to understand if you are a Jew or is the Jew who came from the Balkans.


Well,

One of my Jewish cousins recently received Geno 2.0 results. He is R-M269* and L150+ and has three new SNP mutations - PF7558, PF7562, PF7563. Are there any other Geno 2.0 results with any of these, as they may be a clue for clearing up confusion for L23- and L150+ people. Geno 2.0 marked PF7558 as his terminal SNP, so these three may or may not be phylogenetically equivalent. FTDNA does not yet offer them as advanced tests.




Interesting to know this, and that he has three Sardinian SNPs, those discovered by my compatriot (also for Region and Province: Tuscany and Pisa) Paolo Francalacci could bring us to an Italian origin of R-M269*, which you know is my theory from many years. Glad to know more about this.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #108 on: May 07, 2013, 11:15:25 AM »

But why doesn't he publish his results? I am waiting to see the first Geno 2.0 of hg. R-M269*, but what you say is very interesting for me: there are at least 3 Sardinian SNPs.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #109 on: May 07, 2013, 11:34:03 AM »

E16492   Hysen Gashi, b. 19xx   R1b1a2a1    R-L150   L150+, L23-, L49-, L51-, M269+, P312-, U106-

These are your SNPs on the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” but they haven’t yet restored you amongst the R-M269.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 11:38:43 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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seferhabahir
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« Reply #110 on: May 07, 2013, 11:36:38 AM »

But why doesn't he publish his results? I am waiting to see the first Geno 2.0 of hg. R-M269*, but what you say is very interesting for me: there are at least 3 Sardinian SNPs.

If this was directed to me, I have to ask him for permission to allow me to transfer his results to FTDNA, and to have them further tested for 67 or 111 STR markers. Then we can see if he matches Fabrikant, Studenetzky, Volovansky or others. Would be interesting to know the STR values.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 11:37:03 AM by seferhabahir » Logged

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« Reply #111 on: May 07, 2013, 11:43:14 AM »

If this was directed to me, I have to ask him for permission to allow me to transfer his results to FTDNA, and to have them further tested for 67 or 111 STR markers. Then we can see if he matches Fabrikant, Studenetzky, Volovansky or others. Would be interesting to know the STR values.

Yes, it would be very interesting to see his Geno 2.0 and his STRs. I find very strange that no one Geno 2.0 of hg. R-M269* has been published so far. For what I know of the Jewish R-M269*, they all belong to an unique haplotype, then I think that his values are those of all the others, certainly those of Fabrikant.
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Maliclavelli


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #112 on: May 07, 2013, 11:56:26 AM »

It is very strange that no one of the other Jewish R-M269*-s has been tested for L150. Probably they are all L150+.

999   Gdala (Blacher), b. ABT 1780, Zwolen, Poland   R1b1a2    R-M269   L1-, L11-, L2-, L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-

126775   Moshe Aaron Bardiga, abt 1848 Berestechko, Ukraine   R1b1a2    R-M269   L11-, L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, L584-, M269+, P312-, U106-

163904   Yankel Iosel Urovich, b. 1890, Pinsk   R1b1a2    R-M269   L159.2-, L23-, L49-, M269+

2146   Yakov (Volovansky) c.1780   R1b1a2    R-M269   L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, L584-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, Z2105-

113425   Samuel Studenetzky   R1b1a2    R-M269   L23-, L49-, L50-, L51-, L52-, M269+

101029   Pesach/Peter Arcus b.1822 Minsk/Belarus   R1b1a2    R-M269   L23-, L49-, L584-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P107-, P25+, P310-, P311-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-

78221   Eli Gershko Schor; Skver, Ukraine   R1b1a2    R-M269   L23-, M269+

N12094   Leib Eihevid Goldfeld, 1830, Ukraine, Yiddish   R1b1a2    R-M269   M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P66-, SRY2627-

114312   Wolf Zeev Leibowitz 1830 Poland   R1b1a2    R-M269   M153-, M222-, M269+, M37-, M65-, P312-, P66-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-

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Maliclavelli


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seferhabahir
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« Reply #113 on: May 07, 2013, 12:04:48 PM »

If this was directed to me, I have to ask him for permission to allow me to transfer his results to FTDNA, and to have them further tested for 67 or 111 STR markers. Then we can see if he matches Fabrikant, Studenetzky, Volovansky or others. Would be interesting to know the STR values.
Yes, it would be very interesting to see his Geno 2.0 and his STRs.

OK, I have asked to be allowed to move the results to FTDNA and to do STR testing.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #114 on: May 07, 2013, 12:12:41 PM »

OK, I have asked to be allowed to move the results to FTDNA and to do STR testing.

Many thanks. You are contributing to the science, thing that I am afraid not everybody does. But for posting your relative’s data to FTDNA you should get at least some STRs values. I suggest to you to spend the least. His 12 values will be certainly these:

12   24   14   10   11-14   11   12   12   13   14   29   

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Maliclavelli


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gashi91
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« Reply #115 on: May 07, 2013, 05:16:04 PM »

E16492   Hysen Gashi, b. 19xx   R1b1a2a1    R-L150   L150+, L23-, L49-, L51-, M269+, P312-, U106-

These are your SNPs on the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” but they haven’t yet restored you amongst the R-M269.


Now what does this tell me? What is left for me to test? I would like to know what this has to tell me about my ancestry. I've been trying to check Google but no luck. I will ask FTDNA/iGENEA tommorow also.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #116 on: May 07, 2013, 05:27:51 PM »

Now what does this tell me?
This tells you that you are R-M269* with L150+ like probably of the Jews (Ashkenazim) who belong to this haplogroup. We'll understand soon if you are a Jew or if these Jews are Europeans. I think you haven't to do any test more: L23- and L49- are enough.
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Maliclavelli


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gashi91
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« Reply #117 on: May 07, 2013, 05:43:52 PM »

So there is such as a "Jewish" sub group within the R1b1a2? How come, what kind of sources are there?
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gashi91
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« Reply #118 on: May 08, 2013, 03:18:27 AM »


FTDNA/iGENEA:
as L23 and L49 is negative, it is clear that l150 is the mutation, not l23
that means your haplogroup is R-M269


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #119 on: May 08, 2013, 04:53:54 AM »


FTDNA/iGENEA:
as L23 and L49 is negative, it is clear that l150 is the mutation, not l23
that means your haplogroup is R-M269




Exactly R-M269/L150+ like Fabrikant and the other Jews.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #120 on: May 09, 2013, 10:28:07 AM »

This is written about L150 by David Reynolds. Probably this isn’t true any more, if the same administrators of the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” created a subclade with a back mutation in L150. The same probably is worth for R-M269/L150+.

Row 682: L150, rs9785831, ChrY: 10618791
Haplogroup R1b1b2a, ISOGG (2010)
Some results are inconsistent. Vince Vizachero stated 31 Mar 2010 on DNA-Forums: “We have received a total of about thirty results for L150, all of them consistent with the placement of L150 on the same branch as L23 and L49. It does not define a distinct paragroup. The one infamous L23+ L150- is apparently the result of cross-amplification of a distinct (previously unmapped) piece of DNA from someplace other than the Y.” He further stated on 21 Sep 2010 (private communication to me): “Most of the time the L150 results are fine.  But in a small percentage of men, the primers and probes pick up a different segment of DNA than usual and return a spurious result.” The Romitti result (L23+ L150-) and the Sutherland result (M269+ L150+) both fall into the “spurious” category and should be disregarded.
Values for this SNP should either be ignored, or used with extreme caution.

http://daver.info/ysub/errata.htm

« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 10:37:22 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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seferhabahir
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« Reply #121 on: May 09, 2013, 07:52:51 PM »

I think it would be worth getting FTDNA to add PF7558, PF7562, PF7563 to their list of offered SNPs since one or more of these would probably identify the R-M269xL23 Jewish cluster and, as Maliclavelli says above, they are probably all going to end up being L150+.

What is the right avenue for getting FTDNA to develop primers for these SNPs? I do not have a lot of luck getting any responses back from Thomas Krahn, although the last time I inquired about when a particular SNP might be available, it showed up in the available offerings shortly after.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 07:53:52 PM by seferhabahir » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #122 on: May 09, 2013, 10:12:18 PM »

It seems that another R-M269* is L150+, i.e. this
66522       Unknown Origin   R1b1a2    13   25   14   12   11-14   11   12   11   13   13   29
66522       R1b1a2    R-M269   L51-, M126-, M153-, M160-, M173+, M18-, M207+, M222-, M269+, M343+, M37-, M65-, M73-, P25+, P66-, SRY2627-
and, even though his name is withhold, is Sutherland. Unfortunately when I was banned from DNA-Forum they deleted my access to the Adriano Squecco spreadsheet, and I am not able to see it (it is absurd that the access to it is made even to-day through that site  which doesn’t exist any more). But who has access could look at it, because I remember that Sutherland was there and L150 was tested by 23andme.
Thus we have at least 3 groups of R-M269/L150+: a British, an Albanian and these Jews like Fabrikant.
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Maliclavelli


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Trish13
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« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2013, 06:36:24 PM »

Quote from: Trish13
Our family seems to have the full set for the Balkan / Albanian cluster:

DYS385 a+b: 11-11

DYS426: 12

DYS446: 14

DYS459 a+b: 8-10

DYS464: 14-16-16-17

DYS572 = 10

I am still wondering whether this cluster may still be found in largest numbers in Albania?
Or Greece?
Or Italy?
Or all of them?
Or elsewhere?


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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2013, 09:24:22 PM »

Quote from: Trish13
Our family seems to have the full set for the Balkan / Albanian cluster:

DYS385 a+b: 11-11

DYS426: 12

DYS446: 14

DYS459 a+b: 8-10

DYS464: 14-16-16-17

DYS572 = 10

I am still wondering whether this cluster may still be found in largest numbers in Albania?
Or Greece?
Or Italy?
Or all of them?
Or elsewhere?




So far when it is found in Italy it is due to Arbereshet, then people come recently from Albania. The core place is just Albanian people. Also in Greece they are probably Arvanites.
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Maliclavelli


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