World Families Forums - Our L23 Ancestors - Svombo

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 14, 2014, 12:43:56 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Our L23 Ancestors - Svombo
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Our L23 Ancestors - Svombo  (Read 17060 times)
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2146


« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2013, 06:08:07 AM »

Re: Albanian L150
« Sent to: Luan on: March 12, 2013, 09:40:39 AM »
   

________________________________________
Quote from: Luan on March 12, 2013, 08:56:23 AM
But what I’m confused is that he came out L150+ but L23-?

Look for yourself

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject,Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx?section=ysnp

E16492   Gashi    Albania   R1b1a2a1    12   25   14   10   11-14   11   12   13   13   13   30   16   9-10   11   11   24   16   19   28   15-15-16-17

10   11   19-23   16   16   21   18   36-39   12   12   

E16492   Gashi   R1b1a2    R-M269   L150+, L23-, L51-, M269+, P312-, U106-

From his markers values, I’d say that Gashi is R-M269* for having DYS426=11 and not 12.
L150 is often unreliable, having some R-L23 like Romitti and Seymour L150- whereas all the other R-L23 are L150+. But of course we need other tests.

Gioiello

Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2146


« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2013, 06:49:25 AM »

The closest to Gashi on YHRD is this guy from Australia of European extraction. It is difficult to say from which European country.

1 14 13 30 25 10 13 12 11,14 12 14 15 19 15 16 23 12 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 >>

1 of 1078 Australia [European] Eurasian - European - Western European Oceania / Australia

Gashi:
    14 13 30 25 10 13 12 11,14 12 13 16 19 16 16 ?? 12
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 06:52:27 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

gashi91
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2013, 12:42:45 PM »

What would that mean?

What does it actually at all mean that I have L23- and L150+. I am confused about this, and it seems that all I can do is wait.
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1 (L150)
mtDNA: U
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2013, 12:52:39 PM »

What would that mean?

What does it actually at all mean that I have L23- and L150+. I am confused about this, and it seems that all I can do is wait.

What others are saying below is L150 is unreliable. It may have flipped back and forth which means it is not a good SNP for deciding where one fits on the Y DNA tree. I wouldn't totally ignore it though. Just think of it as a special marker like any really slow STR.

As far as we know, M269 and L23 are reliable. You have that you are M269+ L23-.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b_Descendency_Tree.jpg

See that under M269, the only SNP identified "son" subclade is L23. Therefore, you are R1b-M269*. I don't have any other SNP testing recommendations for you at this time. Does anyone else?

Please be sure to test out to at least 67 STRs. Many are now going out to 111 STRs.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
gashi91
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2013, 01:00:36 PM »

So if I get this right, it is all just a mistake or some kind of error with the SNP??
And I am not L150 - R1b1a2a1 but M269 - R1b1a2?

I have payed for the 67 STR test weeks ago, it's just about time when it will be done.
As for ancient people and so on. My family is as "Albanian" as you can be, not Slavic, not Jewish,  not Asian or any other theory anyone might come up with.
We're native to the Balkans.

Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1 (L150)
mtDNA: U
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2013, 02:16:00 PM »

So if I get this right, it is all just a mistake or some kind of error with the SNP??
And I am not L150 - R1b1a2a1 but M269 - R1b1a2?

I have payed for the 67 STR test weeks ago, it's just about time when it will be done.
As for ancient people and so on. My family is as "Albanian" as you can be, not Slavic, not Jewish,  not Asian or any other theory anyone might come up with.
We're native to the Balkans.

Sorry for the confusion. FTDNA and the Y Chromsome Consortium are both way behind on their Y haplotrees.

I recommend following ISOGG, which is run by volunteers like you and me.
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

The pertinent lines for you are:
•   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2   L265/PF6431, M269, M520, PF6485/S3, PF6399/S10, S13, S17
•   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a   L23/PF6534/S141, L49.1/S349
•   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1   L150/PF6274

Notice that L23 is upstream of L150 which means it is impossible to be L23- and L150+.  Well, we know better since you are L23- L150+. My understanding is there are a couple of others out there like you.

Your results show the tree is in conflict with itself so something has to change. As far as we know, this is not a lab testing error but an error in the Y haplotree. This error is there because L150 may not be a well behaved SNP. It may be unstable and not fit for use in the Y haplotree.

Since we have no reason to think L23 is unreliable, my recommendation is to consider yourself R1b1a2* (or for short, R1b-M269*) because it is defined by M269+ L23-. I'm not in charge of anything, though. That's just an opinion. It looks like Macilevil shares the same opinion using the additional piece of evidence as your DYS426 value.
Quote from: Maliclavelli
’d say that Gashi is R-M269* for having DYS426=11 and not 12.

You might consider contacting FTDNA directly and asking them what their advice is and what your status is.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 02:26:54 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
acekon
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 152


« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2013, 02:18:47 PM »

So if I get this right, it is all just a mistake or some kind of error with the SNP??
And I am not L150 - R1b1a2a1 butR-M269 - R1b1a2?
I have payed for the 67 STR test weeks ago, it's just about time when it will be done.
As for ancient people and so on. My family is as "Albanian" as you can be...
We're native to the Balkans.

Some consider a certain prestige associated belonging to group R1bR-M269 as wiki points out "European R1b is dominated by R-M269." to show that they share a common ancestry with many Europeans and are the possible ancestors should not surprise you.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 02:22:38 PM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
gashi91
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2013, 02:27:50 PM »

I have contacted FTDNA, but they're not saying anything that makes sense.
For Sales: (713) 868-1438

He asked me "to check Google". He did not have any answer to me.
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1 (L150)
mtDNA: U
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2013, 02:31:01 PM »

...
As for ancient people and so on. My family is as "Albanian" as you can be...
We're native to the Balkans.

Some consider a certain prestige associated belonging to group R1bR-M269 as wiki points out "European R1b is dominated by R-M269." to show that they share a common ancestry with many Europeans and are the possible ancestors should not surprise you.

R1b-M269 is a large subclade with many facets. It is very common in western and central Europe, but that is mostly because of its descendant, R1b-L11, which makes up about 95% of the R1b in the western half of Europe.

As we go east through Europe, the Balkans and into Asia, we see different types of R1b more commonly that the L11+ types. R1b-M269* is not common, but it seems to have a peak in the Balkans. It is also found in the Near East and a few other places though.

We don't know where M269 started, but it apparently traveled far and wide.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2013, 02:44:17 PM »

I have contacted FTDNA, but they're not saying anything that makes sense.
For Sales: (713) 868-1438

He asked me "to check Google". He did not have any answer to me.

We discussed this on this forum, at this thread:
http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10082.0

I also brought this up another forum.
Quote
I've heard that ISOGG may remove some of these SNPs from the official tree.
Are these SNPs useful?

The Ht35 project lists categories for L277, L584 and L405 but not L150. I
think L150+ L51- folks are extremely rare. Is that the reason there is no
L150* category?

L584 is the SNP that has a relationship with L405 at a location that is
reportedly triallelic. I think that is why there is an L405+ category,
because they have to be L584-. Does anyone have additional insight on this?

Are there any problems with the stability of L277, L584 or L150?

Here is the answer from a volunteer/citizen-scientist who stays on top of SNPs for us.
Quote
L405/L584 is rock solid. There has been some confusion on nomenclature, though, since originally people were thinking there was a back-mutation there. Thomas indicated that L584+ people were by definition L405+ as well, so the split under R-L23 should be L584+ vs L584-.

L150 has some issues; not clear whether the current status quo needs to change or not. No plans to remove at this time.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-09/1316044276

This all I know or can find. I guess the net is "L150 has some issues."
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
gashi91
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2013, 03:00:32 PM »

We will have to wait and see, I will inform you as soon as I get an update about this.
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1 (L150)
mtDNA: U
gashi91
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


« Reply #86 on: March 14, 2013, 10:47:43 AM »

Ok guys! This is what I got as answer from iGENEA & FTDNA:

Dear Qendrim,

the results for L150+ and L23- have been confirmed. It is likely there was a back mutation in your lineage on L23, which means your ancestors had been positive for L23, but one brought up a mutation at this SNP and changed it back.

We will therefore also test L49 and L757. These two SNPs are parallel to L23 and should be positive, if your L23- was caused by a back mutation.


Could anyone translate this so I understand the point :P haha..
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1 (L150)
mtDNA: U
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2146


« Reply #87 on: March 14, 2013, 10:52:19 AM »

Ok guys! This is what I got as answer from iGENEA & FTDNA:

Dear Qendrim,

the results for L150+ and L23- have been confirmed. It is likely there was a back mutation in your lineage on L23, which means your ancestors had been positive for L23, but one brought up a mutation at this SNP and changed it back.

We will therefore also test L49 and L757. These two SNPs are parallel to L23 and should be positive, if your L23- was caused by a back mutation.


Could anyone translate this so I understand the point :P haha..

At IGENEA (FTDNA) think that you may have had a back mutation in L23, thing never seen before, rather then L150 is unreliable. But your DYS426=11 and not 12 makes me think that you are R-M269* and not R-L23.
Anyway these other SNPs could be a good verification, but who does pay for this?
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

gashi91
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


« Reply #88 on: March 14, 2013, 10:55:50 AM »

No idea! I did not confirm for anything, neither did I pay for anything. It just happend auto.
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1 (L150)
mtDNA: U
gashi91
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


« Reply #89 on: March 14, 2013, 11:00:35 AM »

Seems like iGENEA/FTDNA is paying, calling this": is for free, as you have an unusual result"
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1 (L150)
mtDNA: U
A_Wode
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 100


« Reply #90 on: March 14, 2013, 01:31:01 PM »

Ok guys! This is what I got as answer from iGENEA & FTDNA:

Dear Qendrim,

the results for L150+ and L23- have been confirmed. It is likely there was a back mutation in your lineage on L23, which means your ancestors had been positive for L23, but one brought up a mutation at this SNP and changed it back.

We will therefore also test L49 and L757. These two SNPs are parallel to L23 and should be positive, if your L23- was caused by a back mutation.


Could anyone translate this so I understand the point :P haha..

I don't mean to jump to conclusions, but I wonder if this is the case for ALL M269*? There are only 2 M269* I am aware of that fall outside this cluster. This would make "true" M269* that much rarer....

Are we certain that none of these guys who are M269* (DYS426=11) are not also L150+? I don't see any tested for it.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 01:33:23 PM by A_Wode » Logged
Luan
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 15


« Reply #91 on: March 14, 2013, 01:37:01 PM »

Ok guys! This is what I got as answer from iGENEA & FTDNA:

Dear Qendrim,

the results for L150+ and L23- have been confirmed. It is likely there was a back mutation in your lineage on L23, which means your ancestors had been positive for L23, but one brought up a mutation at this SNP and changed it back.

We will therefore also test L49 and L757. These two SNPs are parallel to L23 and should be positive, if your L23- was caused by a back mutation.


Could anyone translate this so I understand the point :P haha..

At IGENEA (FTDNA) think that you may have had a back mutation in L23, thing never seen before, rather then L150 is unreliable. But your DYS426=11 and not 12 makes me think that you are R-M269* and not R-L23.
Anyway these other SNPs could be a good verification, but who does pay for this?
If this is true, does this show something about the origin of R-L23?  in the balkans.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 01:38:17 PM by Luan » Logged

Albanian(Shqiptar)
YDNA                
R-L23

Mtdna
H
gashi91
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2013, 01:42:59 PM »

I dont know so much about what's going on, but only time will tell. Why not, jump to "your own" conclusions. This is a forum :)...

I will post any update here.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 01:43:20 PM by gashi91 » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1 (L150)
mtDNA: U
Luan
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 15


« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2013, 01:54:35 PM »

I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to this. lol
Logged

Albanian(Shqiptar)
YDNA                
R-L23

Mtdna
H
gashi91
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2013, 02:26:41 PM »

I'm not that knowledgeable when it comes to this. lol

Heheh, I was not posting to you shqipe! ;)
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1 (L150)
mtDNA: U
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #95 on: March 15, 2013, 10:01:04 PM »

...

I'm Idrizaj on there also am Balkan cluster.

Hi.

It took a while to get back to you ~ sorry. I certainly saw similarities with our results, but I think that you have had more markers tested than we have :)
Logged
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2013, 10:12:07 PM »

I've had another result:
DYS446: 14

Awaiting one more.
Logged
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #97 on: March 18, 2013, 10:46:26 AM »

Could there be such thing as L150.2 ?
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


gashi91
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2013, 07:26:00 PM »

I got my 67 marker results.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx?section=yresults
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1 (L150)
mtDNA: U
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2146


« Reply #99 on: April 01, 2013, 02:59:28 AM »


I think that who classified you in the Albanian project like L23.2 (i.e if you were R-L23+ with a back mutation just in L23) is wrong and is correct the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” which classifies you like a R-M269* with a back mutation in L150, then L150.2, like Fabrikant. I have written about this also elsewhere. Of course we are waiting for these SNPs tests promised to you, but your DYF406S1=11, which is modal in R-M269* but not in R-L23*, is another value in favour of my hypothesis.
It is interesting your DYS617=8, whereas the modal is 12. Certainly a multistep mutation. If you find another guy with this value, very likely he is very close to you.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.104 seconds with 18 queries.