Our L23 Ancestors - Svombo

[Trish13]

Hi Maliclavelli, :)

Thanks. Yes, I can see how back  + forth mutations would appear to cancel each other out.

So the ancestors of Mr Pappas and me may have been cousins, or even siblings, 600 or 700 years ago. Great. I think that I should contact him :)

[Trish13]

These are the four “Balkan Cluster” in the Greek Project:

N75700   Panayiotis Tsakiris, circa 1800   Greece   R1b1a2    
13   24   14   10   11-11   12   12   12   13   13 29                                                                                   
...
...       

N6383   Aristide Marinopoulos, circa 1850, Skala Greece   Greece   R1b1a2
13   24   14   11   11-11   12   12   12   14   13   30                                                                        

I notice that only 12 markers are given for Panayiotis Tsakiris and Aristide Marinopoulos, yet it is still possible to be sure that they are in the  “Balkan Cluster”. Is this just because of  '11-11' at 385a+b, or is there something more?

[Maliclavelli]

These are the four “Balkan Cluster” in the Greek Project:

N75700   Panayiotis Tsakiris, circa 1800   Greece   R1b1a2    
13   24   14   10   11-11   12   12   12   13   13 29                                                                                   
...
...       

N6383   Aristide Marinopoulos, circa 1850, Skala Greece   Greece   R1b1a2
13   24   14   11   11-11   12   12   12   14   13   30                                                                        

I notice that only 12 markers are given for Panayiotis Tsakiris and Aristide Marinopoulos, yet it is still possible to be sure that they are in the  “Balkan Cluster”. Is this just because of  '11-11' at 385a+b, or is there something more?

Yes, I put them in the Balkan cluster for DYS385=11-11, but it would be interesting to get DYS459a, which has a 8 value in the Balkan cluster.

[Trish13]

Hi again :)

I became intrigued by one of my 'matches', noted by FT DNA (19th century, Zym, Prizren. Initials A K. )

I have found further details for him in the 'R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project'.

I was intrigued because the member's ancestor came from Kosovo and I thought that a Kosovo connection in my ancestry might possibly explain our Slavic surname.

Now, I'm not sure quite what to think.

His details:

13   24   14   11 10-11   12   12   12   13   13   29  
15  8-10   11   11   25   15   19  29  13-16-16-17  
11   11   19-23   15 15   17  17   38-39   12  12  

Blue match mine. Red do not match.

I think that this is a 10-step difference from mine.

He has:
DYS385=10-11 and DYS459=8-10

Is he still in the 'Balkan Cluster'?

I apologise. I have quoted the wrong details here. Please ignore. I am really very sorry! I have added the correct information below

[Maliclavelli]

Hi again :)

I became intrigued by one of my 'matches', noted by FT DNA (19th century, Zym, Prizren. Initials A K. )

I have found further details for him in the 'R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project'.

I was intrigued because the member's ancestor came from Kosovo and I thought that a Kosovo connection in my ancestry might possibly explain our Slavic surname.

Now, I'm not sure quite what to think.

His details:

13   24   14   11 10-11   12   12   12   13   13   29  
15  8-10   11   11   25   15   19  29  13-16-16-17  
11   11   19-23   15 15   17  17   38-39   12  12  

Blue match mine. Red do not match.

I think that this is a 10-step difference from mine.

He has:
DYS385=10-11 and DYS459=8-10

Is he still in the 'Balkan Cluster'?

By the way, does anyone have any thoughts on 'Svombos' ~ our apparently Slavic ancestral surname, please?

This is certainly a Balkan cluster, not only for DYS385=10 (from 11)-11 and DYS459a=8, but also for DYS464=13 (sometimes 14)-16-16-17.
These haplotypes descend all from a single person and, as they are found only in the Balkans, I think more ancient than the Slav migration. I said to a Serb who wrote to me that he is linked more to Albanians than to Slavs, who probably brought there their language but perhaps a few of their haplotypes (Balkans have also some ancient R1a, I etc., besides E-V13 etc.).

For this I am interested to know how and when this Balkan cluster is linked to my (Italian) R-L23/L150/Z2105+ but L277- and L584-.

[Trish13]

He is:
R1b1a2a1 ~ L150   

[Trish13]

....
These haplotypes descend all from a single person and, as they are found only in the Balkans, I think more ancient than the Slav migration.

That is a really interesting point.

I said to a Serb who wrote to me that he is linked more to Albanians than to Slavs, who probably brought there their language but perhaps a few of their haplotypes ....

Perhaps that could go some way to explaining our Slavic surname?

For this I am interested to know how and when this Balkan cluster is linked to my (Italian) R-L23/L150/Z2105+ but L277- and L584-.

Is it 'Arberesh'?
Did some ancient inhabitants of 'Albania' go to Greece as 'Arvanites' and some to Italy as 'Arberesh'?

[Trish13]

Am I right in thinking that this is the Balkan Cluster 'fingerprint'?

Or am I mistaken?

Is there more to it?


YS385 a+b = 11-11 or DYS385 = 10-11

DYS426 = 11 or 12

DYS446 = 14 or more

DYS459 a+b = 8-10

DYS464 = 13 (sometimes 14) -16-16-17

DYS572 = 10

[Trish13]

... Balkan cluster ...
These haplotypes descend all from a single person and, as they are found only in the Balkans, I think more ancient than the Slav migration. I said to a Serb who wrote to me that he is linked more to Albanians than to Slavs, who probably brought there their language but perhaps a few of their haplotypes (Balkans have also some ancient R1a, I etc., besides E-V13 etc.)....

I just read this, from Diana Farr Louis' book 'Athens and beyond':

"Yiannis Rerras, a beekeeper in Gavrion with a keen interest in history, maintains that the tribes who first settled in Illyria, present-day Albania, were in fact Greek. As proof, he points to the existence in the Arvanitika dialect of many words whose roots are identical to those used by Homer. He suggests that the language and identity changed over the centuries with the influx of Slavs."

Diana Farr Louis ~ 'Athens and beyond: 30 Day Trips & Weekends', published by 'Athens News' 2003.
http://www.athensnews.gr/old_issue/13090/11914

It reminded me of an item I read in 'Travellers Albania':

'Butrint was founded by the Greek-speaking Chaonians, and evidence suggests that a settlement has been on this site since around the 9th century BC.'  [Page 100]

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians
http://butrint.org/

[Maliclavelli]

DYS426 = 11 or 12

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

[Luan]

Hi again :)

I became intrigued by one of my 'matches', noted by FT DNA (19th century, Zym, Prizren. Initials A K. )

I have found further details for him in the 'R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project'.

I was intrigued because the member's ancestor came from Kosovo and I thought that a Kosovo connection in my ancestry might possibly explain our Slavic surname.

Now, I'm not sure quite what to think.

His details:

13   24   14   11 10-11   12   12   12   13   13   29    
15   8-10   11   11   25   15   19   29   13-16-16-17 
11   11   19-23   15 15   17   17   38-39   12   12   

Blue match mine. Red do not match.

I think that this is a 10-step difference from mine.

He has:
DYS385=10-11 and DYS459=8-10

Is he still in the 'Balkan Cluster'?

By the way, does anyone have any thoughts on 'Svombos' ~ our apparently Slavic ancestral surname, please?

That member name is Andre Kajtazi hes is Albanian from kosovo, not a slav.

[Luan]

20 to 25% of Albanians in Kosovo are R1b1a2. By the looks of it are L23. I'm one of them.

[Trish13]

20 to 25% of Albanians in Kosovo are R1b1a2. By the looks of it are L23. I'm one of them.

Interesting! Have you had your Y-DNA checked? It would be good to compare notes, if you have :)

[Trish13]

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

Oh, I see. That's one that makes the difference. Sorry, I saw this and misunderstood.

Another Albanian, perhaps transferring from Ethnoancestry has joined the R1b1c project. The result looks M269* - characteristic DYS426 =11.

Have I understood the rest correctly? :)

[Trish13]

That member name is Andre Kajtazi hes is Albanian from kosovo, not a slav.

I am very sorry, but I must have been tired and got mixed up with the records. I quoted the wrong details for the wrong person. I shall look through the information again. My sincere apologies! Edit: I have now added the correct info below.

[Trish13]

Again, I am sorry for my silly error. Please accept my apologies.

I have rechecked the details and feel sure that these are right. I hope so.

Here are the corrected items:


Our Y-DNA ~ Oldest Ancestor Nicholas Svombos - Greece (probably Hydra) R-L23:

13   24   14   11   11-11   12   12   12  13   13   29
16   8-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   14-16-16-17  
11   11  19-23   15   16   17   18   36-40   11   12  


A Kajtazi, b. 19th century, Zym, Prizren, Koso    R1b1a2a1    

13    24    14    11    11-11    12    12    13    13    13    29    
16    8-10    11    11    25    15    19    29    14-16-16-17        
12    10    19-23    16    15    17    17    36-36    12    12


(The red ones are simply those which do not match.)

[Luan]

That member name is Andre Kajtazi hes is Albanian from kosovo, not a slav.

I am very sorry, but I must have been tired and got mixed up with the records. I quoted the wrong details for the wrong person. I shall look through the information again. My sincere apologies! Edit: I have now added the correct info below.

No problem, I just wanted you to know.

[Luan]

20 to 25% of Albanians in Kosovo are R1b1a2. By the looks of it are L23. I'm one of them.

Interesting! Have you had your Y-DNA checked? It would be good to compare notes, if you have :)

Actually, there is a new Albanian Y DNA project on FTDNA so far all are R-L150+

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx?section=yresults

I'm Idrizaj on there also am Balkan cluster.

[Luan]

DYS426 = 11 or 12

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

There is an Albanian with DYS426=11 on the Albanian Y DNA project.
He is of the Albanian Gashi tribe.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx?section=yresults

[Maliclavelli]

DYS426 = 11 or 12

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

There is an Albanian with DYS426=11 on the Albanian Y DNA project.
He is of the Albanian Gashi tribe.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Gashi has been tested for M269, but not for its subclades (except P312 and U106). We don’t know then if he is R-M269* with DYS426=11 (modal for this haplogroup) or a R-L150* with DYS 426 =11, but he should be tested for this SNP.

E16492   Gashi   R1b1a2    R-M269   M269+, P312-, U106-

And why Fregola has been put amongst these Albanians? His surname is Italian and his DYS426=13 seems to demonstrate that he is R-L51*(strengthened also by DYS464d=18), very diffused in Italy (probably born here) and practically at 0% eastward of Italy.

[Luan]

DYS426 = 11 or 12

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

There is an Albanian with DYS426=11 on the Albanian Y DNA project.
He is of the Albanian Gashi tribe.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Gashi has been tested for M269, but not for its subclades (except P312 and U106). We don’t know then if he is R-M269* with DYS426=11 (modal for this haplogroup) or a R-L150* with DYS 426 =11, but he should be tested for this SNP.

E16492   Gashi   R1b1a2    R-M269   M269+, P312-, U106-

And why Fregola has been put amongst these Albanians? His surname is Italian and his DYS426=13 seems to demonstrate that he is R-L51*(strengthened also by DYS464d=18), very diffused in Italy (probably born here) and practically at 0% eastward of Italy.

I also don't know why Fregola put him self on there.

[Luan]

DYS426 = 11 or 12

I don't know any Balkan cluster of R-L23 with DYS426=11, which is the value of R-M269*. There is a R-L23* with DYS426=11 which I spoke about in another thread, but probably it is an ancient cluster, it seems above all diffused in western Europe. Of course it would be interesting to test these guys for some SNPs.

There is an Albanian with DYS426=11 on the Albanian Y DNA project.
He is of the Albanian Gashi tribe.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Gashi has been tested for M269, but not for its subclades (except P312 and U106). We don’t know then if he is R-M269* with DYS426=11 (modal for this haplogroup) or a R-L150* with DYS 426 =11, but he should be tested for this SNP.

E16492   Gashi   R1b1a2    R-M269   M269+, P312-, U106-

And why Fregola has been put amongst these Albanians? His surname is Italian and his DYS426=13 seems to demonstrate that he is R-L51*(strengthened also by DYS464d=18), very diffused in Italy (probably born here) and practically at 0% eastward of Italy.

I read Gashi comment at Eupedia said that Deep clade is still running, most likely to be L-23. Sub-groups "attached" to western europe are tested negative, that includes celts, italics and germanics. Which left these remaining:

R1b1a2a* - L23
R1b1a2a1* - L150
R1b1a2a1a* - L51

[gashi91]

Hello!

This is Gashi from FTDNA and Eupedia.


Your Haplogroup    Tests Taken
R-L150   M269+ L150+ U106- P312- L51- L23-

So my confirmed haplogroup is R1b1a2a1.
What I dont understand is how it came to have L23(-) negative, and L150(+) positive.

[Mikewww]

Hello!

This is Gashi from FTDNA and Eupedia.


Your Haplogroup    Tests Taken
R-L150   M269+ L150+ U106- P312- L51- L23-

So my confirmed haplogroup is R1b1a2a1.
What I dont understand is how it came to have L23(-) negative, and L150(+) positive.

Please be sure to join the project for people who are M169+and L23- or L11-.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults

The project administrators can help. My understanding is that L150 has some "stability" concerns.

[gashi91]

According to FTDNA:


The L23- and L150+ results are under quality control at the moment as this result does not fit the current knowledge of the haplotree.

If this result is confirmed it could either be caused by a back mutation at L23 or it means that L23 is not ancestral to L150 but both are rather on the same level below M269. As this would cause a major change in the R1b-haplotree we will have to have a closer look at this.

Btw: I just joined the project.