World Families Forums - Our L23 Ancestors - Svombo

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 22, 2014, 04:41:06 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Our L23 Ancestors - Svombo
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Our L23 Ancestors - Svombo  (Read 20926 times)
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2013, 09:07:25 AM »

Hi + thanks Maliclavelli :)

Those tests are quite expensive, especially as I am looking at other lines, so I am quite happy to save money if I can.

I think that the DYS446 test is cheaper. Do you think that it would be worth having that tested?

Indeed, are there other tests that you would recommend to me, please?

Thank you!

Logged
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2013, 09:10:11 AM »

.... You all descend from one person who was R-L23/Z2103/Z2105+.
That's really exciting!
I wonder where and when he lived.

Quote
When you compare your data with others, look at these values above all, because they are stable from many hundreds of years.

I did wonder if some markers were more relevant than others.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 09:10:45 AM by Trish13 » Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2013, 10:18:26 AM »

It is true that DYS446 is a almost fast mutating marker (0,003435), but what differentiates who understands mutation rate (me) from who believes to understand it (many others) it is the consideration of the context in which mutations happen. A mutation rate of 0,003435 is a mutation within 291 generations, i.e. almost 10,000 years, enough for our haplogroup. But what the most part of people don’t know is that mutations happen around the modal and only sometime go for the tangent. I (who am R-L23/Z2105+, but of a different cluster from the Balkan one) have DYS446=13, which is the modal. The Balkan cluster has:

Panopoulos (VC7PZ) = 15
Ciulla (EBWSZ) = 16
Fega (3MTQN) = 16

Then in the Balkan cluster the mutations have happened for the tangent (from 13) and not around the modal. For this this marker is important for the Balkan cluster.

Also DYS572=10 is very important (mutation rate= 0,001369).

P.S. But you seem to me not so naïve. Perhaps more than an Arvanites you could be the same Greek who believes to be K1a1b1e like me.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

acekon
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 152


« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2013, 04:13:00 PM »

Trish13 & geni can I link up with you on your 23andme accounts?

Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2013, 06:11:49 PM »

Trish13 & geni can I link up with you on your 23andme accounts?
Hi acekon :)

I'm not with '23andme'. My account is with FT DNA (and Y-Search).
Can you link with those?
Logged
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2013, 06:30:37 PM »

... I (who am R-L23/Z2105+, but of a different cluster from the Balkan one) have DYS446=13, which is the modal.
Hi :)

Now I am becoming confused again. I thought that R-L23/Z2105+ was the Balkan cluster. However, I realise that the other variables have to fit as well. :)

Quote
The Balkan cluster has:
Panopoulos (VC7PZ) = 15
Ciulla (EBWSZ) = 16
Fega (3MTQN) = 16

Interesting.
I have ordered both the DYS446 and DYS572 tests.

Quote
P.S. But you seem to me not so naïve. Perhaps more than an Arvanites you could be the same Greek who believes to be K1a1b1e like me.
I only have access to that one male line ~ from Nicholas Svombo who migrated to the British Isles. I don't know who my female Greek ancestors may have been.

I don't know whether or not my ancestors were Greeks or Arvanites, but I understand that many Arvanites settled on Hydra. Plus there is still the mystery of the Slavic surname.

This is really fascinating!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 07:37:56 PM by Trish13 » Logged
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2013, 09:05:41 PM »

.... I (who am R-L23/Z2105+, but of a different cluster from the Balkan one ....

Both being R-L23/Z2105, I'm guessing that the two clusters are fairly closely related.

Do you also share the R-L23/Z2103/Z2105+ ancestor with me and others?
Or do you and I (and the others) share an earlier one?
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2013, 02:50:27 AM »

.... I (who am R-L23/Z2105+, but of a different cluster from the Balkan one ....

Both being R-L23/Z2105, I'm guessing that the two clusters are fairly closely related.

Do you also share the R-L23/Z2103/Z2105+ ancestor with me and others?
Or do you and I (and the others) share an earlier one?

Probably we descend from the same ancestor R-L23/Z2103/Z2105+ if we will be negative for any other SNPs discovered in the future, but clearly we belong to different clusters.

I supposed that between me and Ciulla (for instance) could be a more ancient link given by
A10=14
DYS441=14
DYS511=11

Etc.

But of course it is very difficult to demonstrate that these values are the same from many thousands of years whereas others changed.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2013, 04:22:46 PM »

....
P.S. But you seem to me not so naïve. Perhaps more than an Arvanites you could be the same Greek who believes to be K1a1b1e like me.

Maliclavelli

YDNA: R-Z2105+ L277- L584-

MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Why do you say naive???

Is MtDNA 'K1a1b1e' specifically Greek?

Maybe my gggf's mother was 'K1a1b1e' , but I doubt that I shall ever know?

Might the autosomal test show anything of that nature?
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2013, 04:10:59 AM »


Why do you say naive???

Is MtDNA 'K1a1b1e' specifically Greek?

Maybe my gggf's mother was 'K1a1b1e' , but I doubt that I shall ever know?

Might the autosomal test show anything of that nature?

I apologize. As there is a person who jokes with me saying he is K1a1b1e etc., I doubted that also your data were due to this, but I am seeing that you have a FTDNA account, that you are in the “ht 35 FTDNA project” etc. Everything is true, then don’t take in consideration what I have said.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

A_Wode
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 100


« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2013, 07:39:11 PM »

Another Albanian, perhaps transferring from Ethnoancestry has joined the R1b1c project. The result looks M269* - characteristic DYS426 =11.
Logged
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2013, 11:27:56 PM »

Hi again, A_Wode. :)

My DYS426 = 12

What should this tell me?

Thanks :)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 11:28:15 PM by Trish13 » Logged
A_Wode
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 100


« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2013, 03:19:42 PM »

Hi again, A_Wode. :)

My DYS426 = 12

What should this tell me?

Thanks :)

Hi Trish13,

I think everything stated previously holds in your case. He is just part of a rarer branch that is different from your father's.
Logged
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2013, 12:00:28 AM »

Hi A_Wode :)

Thanks for that.
Logged
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2013, 09:35:00 AM »

Hi again,

An unusual request, this time, perhaps :)

I'd like some thoughts on something that has been suggested re our ancestry, please.

My Svombo ancestors were sea-faring men. I understand that Hydra is renowned for such men.

The suggestion is that maybe their ancestors were Vikings ~ those sea-farers, who travelled far and wide ~ including as far as the Balkans.

I believe that Viking genes have been studied. Does anyone know, please, if there is anything within our results to suggest any Viking connection?

Thank you. :)
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2013, 06:09:13 AM »

Hi again,

An unusual request, this time, perhaps :)

I'd like some thoughts on something that has been suggested re our ancestry, please.

My Svombo ancestors were sea-faring men. I understand that Hydra is renowned for such men.

The suggestion is that maybe their ancestors were Vikings ~ those sea-farers, who travelled far and wide ~ including as far as the Balkans.

I believe that Viking genes have been studied. Does anyone know, please, if there is anything within our results to suggest any Viking connection?

Thank you. :)

I think there is no possibility that the “Balkan cluster” has something to do with Vikings. We know that Hydra was settled by Arvanites, and this cluster has been found so far only in the Balkans. By the test of more markers you’ll be able to know which is the Balkan people closer to you.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2013, 12:16:36 PM »

Thank you, Maliclavelli :)
Logged
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2013, 03:13:23 PM »

Can I have some thoughts on the Geno 2.0 test please?

The Svombo ancestry is on my mother's side. My grandmother's maiden name was Svombo. Her father was a Svombo and his father was the first Svombo we know anything about ~ the one who came from Greece. It was my grandmother's brother's son who provided the DNA for testing.

I am now considering asking my own brother to provide a DNA sample for the Geno 2.0 test. I understand that it will provide information from various ancestral lines. Can I presume that this will include the Svombo line?  If so, what sort of information might I expect? Might it give me details of my other 'Greek' lines?

Thank you
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 03:14:28 PM by Trish13 » Logged
ArmandoR1b
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2013, 10:49:01 PM »

Can I have some thoughts on the Geno 2.0 test please?

The Svombo ancestry is on my mother's side. My grandmother's maiden name was Svombo. Her father was a Svombo and his father was the first Svombo we know anything about ~ the one who came from Greece. It was my grandmother's brother's son who provided the DNA for testing.

I am now considering asking my own brother to provide a DNA sample for the Geno 2.0 test. I understand that it will provide information from various ancestral lines. Can I presume that this will include the Svombo line?  If so, what sort of information might I expect? Might it give me details of my other 'Greek' lines?

Thank you

If your brother takes the Geno 2.0 test it will give you your father's Y-DNA line, your mother's mt-DNA, and what percentage of each of the nine ancestral regions your brother's autosomal DNA shows to be made of. The nine ancestral regions include Mediterranean, Southwest Asian, and Northern European and six others. The three I mentioned are what make up the Greek reference population at 54%, 17% and 28% respectively. The reference population of the U.K. is made up of the exact same three ancestral regions at 33%, 17%, and 50% respectively. I don't see how you would be able to differentiate which part of your brother's ancestry is Greek. It would only tell you how much different it is from the reference population. You can see the following sites for the nine ancestral regions and for the reference populations.

http://goo.gl/OaAuu

http://goo.gl/lFWI6

I would tell you to take a Family Finder test to attempt to find distant Greek relatives but I still haven't found any Greek relatives through matches and my maternal grandfather was 100% Greek. That doesn't mean you wouldn't find Greek relatives, it just means it isn't likely. From what I understand 23andme isn't very useful for finding matches. I believe you have exhausted what is available to you until more Greeks take DNA tests and they find more matches on your Svombo Y-DNA line. I guess you could contact the admin of the Greek DNA project. The site is http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Greece/default.aspx




Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2013, 03:50:41 AM »

These are the four “Balkan Cluster” in the Greek Project:

N75700   Panayiotis Tsakiris, circa 1800   Greece   R1b1a2    
13   24   14   10   11-11   12   12   12   13   13 29                                                                                   

162445   George Panopoulos   Greece   R1b1a2a1    
13   24   14   11   10-11   12   12   12   13   13   29   
15   8-10   11   11   25   15   19   29   13-16-16-17   11   11   19-23   15   15   17   17   38-39   12   12   11   9   15-16

47832   Constantine Pappas born @ 1920, Greece   Greece   R1b1    
13   24   14   11   11-11   12   12   12   13   13   29   
15   8-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   14-16-16-17   11   11   19-23   16   15   18   18   36-36   12   12           

N6383   Aristide Marinopoulos, circa 1850, Skala Greece   Greece   R1b1a2
13   24   14   11   11-11   12   12   12   14   13   30                                                                                       

« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 03:53:26 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2013, 08:42:04 AM »

Thanks ArmandoR1b and Maliclavelli :) :)

Thank you for your help.

I'm interested in all of my lines of descent, so I'll have to decide whether it's worth going ahead with 'Geno' anyway.

My brother has had a Y-DNA test done with another company, but that would need updating by FT DNA for it to be useful, and a MtDNA test would provide new info on my mother's line, which would be good. But would 'Geno' info be as good as getting more tests done by FT DNA? I don't know :)

As for the more general 'autosomal' results, I just don't know how useful or interesting they might be, either.

I definitely want to find out more about my various lines ~ both recent and ancient ~ but I just cannot tell whether Geno would help.

Thanks re Svombo, though. It sounds as if Geno is unlikely to be of much use there.

Is there any way of getting an idea where the Svombo ancestors were, before they arrived in the Balkans?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 09:25:13 AM by Trish13 » Logged
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2013, 09:24:39 AM »

These are the four “Balkan Cluster” in the Greek Project:
...
...

47832   Constantine Pappas born @ 1920, Greece   Greece   R1b1    
13   24   14   11   11-11   12   12   12   13   13   29   
15   8-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   14-16-16-17   
11   11   19-23   16   15   18   18   36-36   12   12           
...                                                                                    

Hi Maliclavelli,

Thank you.

I have looked at this example (Constantine Pappas), before, because so much of it is the same as our Y-DNA result:

13   24   14   11   11-11   12   12   12   13   13   29

16   8-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   14-16-16-17   
11   11   19-23   15   16   17   18   36-40   11   12   

If we had only had the first 12 markers checked, then we would have been classed as an identical match, but, thereafter, we have 6 differences. How close or distant would this make us, I wonder. What do you think?   

FT FNA name him as a 1-step match for us.   

He was one of those I noted before, re closeness at 25 markers. But he is not given as our closest match. V Sanovic, M.Meta and D. N Marinos are noted before him. Yet at 37 markers, Pappas does seem to be the closest.

FT DNA give an 81.8% chance that Pappas shared a common ancestor with us within the last 24 generations. Quite a long way back. Do you think that these calculations are reliable?
Logged
ArmandoR1b
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2013, 01:24:25 PM »

Thanks ArmandoR1b and Maliclavelli :) :)

Thank you for your help.

I'm interested in all of my lines of descent, so I'll have to decide whether it's worth going ahead with 'Geno' anyway.

My brother has had a Y-DNA test done with another company, but that would need updating by FT DNA for it to be useful, and a MtDNA test would provide new info on my mother's line, which would be good. But would 'Geno' info be as good as getting more tests done by FT DNA? I don't know :)

As for the more general 'autosomal' results, I just don't know how useful or interesting they might be, either.

I definitely want to find out more about my various lines ~ both recent and ancient ~ but I just cannot tell whether Geno would help.


If you get a Geno 2.0 test you will probably end up wanting your brother's 67 marker STR info to compare other people with the same surname and also to join a Y-DNA project. Therefore, you would still have to test with FTDNA for that. If you get just the FTDNA 67 marker test you might still want your brother's terminal SNP which is provided by Geno 2.0 but only a specific SNP is provided. You could always get the Geno 2.0 then transfer the results to FTDNA and pay for the 67 marker upgrade at a reduced price.

Doing just Y-DNA tests at FTDNA won't give you your ancestral composition which Geno 2.0 does, but isn't really all that useful yet although it is interesting, and the Geno 2.0 won't try and find relatives. Family Finder will do both.

Geno 2.0 will provide your mtDNA haplogroup but will not try and find relatives that match through that line. The FTDNA mtDNA test will try and find relatives.

So you can see that taking all of the tests separately at FTDNA provides more info but the cost is higher. Taking a Geno 2.0 test then transferring the results to FTDNA would still cost a lot. Only taking the Geno 2.0 test would leave you with questions. Taking the tests directly through FTDNA would give you the results much faster. In the end taking the tests directly through FTDNA is better.

I forgot to add in my previous post that my Family Finder test did not specify my Greek ancestry. Doug McDonald did however say that what showed as Mideast at 6.7% in the Admix results was my Greek ancestry. Keep in mind though, on paper, I am 25% Greek, and it seems it was your grandmother that was 25% Greek.
Logged
Trish13
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2013, 01:32:14 PM »

Hello ArmandoR1b :)

Thank you for all the information. It's a lot to consider, but your feedback will help me to make my decisions, so I'm very grateful.

Yes, it was my grandmother who was 25% Greek, so my results would be well watered down :)

It's all very exciting, though!
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2013, 04:01:58 PM »

Hi Maliclavelli,
Thank you.
I have looked at this example (Constantine Pappas), before, because so much of it is the same as our Y-DNA result:

13   24   14   11   11-11   12   12   12   13   13   29

16   8-10   11   11   25   15   19   30   14-16-16-17   
11   11   19-23   15   16   17   18   36-40   11   12   

If we had only had the first 12 markers checked, then we would have been classed as an identical match, but, thereafter, we have 6 differences. How close or distant would this make us, I wonder. What do you think?   

FT FNA name him as a 1-step match for us.   

He was one of those I noted before, re closeness at 25 markers. But he is not given as our closest match. V Sanovic, M.Meta and D. N Marinos are noted before him. Yet at 37 markers, Pappas does seem to be the closest.

FT DNA give an 81.8% chance that Pappas shared a common ancestor with us within the last 24 generations. Quite a long way back. Do you think that these calculations are reliable?

You are at a Genetic Distance of 9 out 37 markers. They aren’t so many. 24 generations are likely, i.e  600 or 700 years. Some of these markers are very fast mutating ones, but not every are at 1 step distance: CDYb is at a GD of 4. My theory is that mutations happen backwards and forwards and many are hidden because happen around the modal. Then the mutations between you could be more, but anyway you are very close, and probably all the Balkan clusters are very close and presuppose an ancestor lived no so far.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 7 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.146 seconds with 18 queries.