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Trish13
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« on: February 09, 2013, 08:51:15 PM »

Hi :)

I would be really grateful for and very interested in any thoughts on my ancestry,  please, based on background information, plus DNA test results, as I'm not as knowledgeable as I would like to be when it comes to genealogical genetics. Thank you!

My great great grandfather was Greek, but it seems that his surname was not. It was 'Svombo' ~ 'Svombos' in Greek.

A Hydriot lady, with that same name, said that the surname 'Svombo' was very rare and could once only be found on the island of Hydra (until some people migrated elsewhere, that is). She said that it could equally be transcribed as 'Svompos' or 'Svobos'.

Having spoken to Greek friends, who said that it was not a Greek name, and having compared it with other surnames, I concluded that it might well be related to the 'Svobo...'-type surnames names found in many parts of Eastern Europe.

I discussed the surname online and was told that it probably originated in the Serbian given name Slobodan / Svobodan, since Serbia was once much larger, it included / bordered upon Greece, it was Orthodox like Greece, and it included / bordered upon Albania, orginal homeland of the the Arvanites, who travelled South through the Peloponese and settled on Hydra island as refugees.

Interestingly I have made contact with someone, who bears a very similar surname and whose Greek family comes from near the Albanian border.

I arranged for a male cousin to take the (FT DNA) Y DNA 25-marker test. The result gave us a basic European predicted Haplogroup: R1b1a2 (R-M269).

This was so general as to be unhelpful, especially since holders of this result seem to have been more numerous in western Europe than eastern. However, since I was also following other lines, I didn't want to upgrade just yet.

Then I noticed this on Wikipedia:
R1b1a2 ... is defined by the presence of SNP marker M269.  R1b1a2* or M269(xL23) is found at highest frequency in the central Balkans notably Kosovo with 7.9%, Macedonia 5.1% and Serbia 4.4%. Kosovo is notable in also having a high percentage of descendant L23* or L23(xM412) at 11.4% unlike most other areas with significant percentages of M269* and L23* except for Poland with 2.4% and 9.5% and the Bashkirs of southeast Bashkortostan with 2.4% and 32.2% respectively. ... Five individuals out of 110 tested in the Ararat Valley, Armenia belonged to R1b1a2* and 36 to L23*, with none belonging to subclades of L23.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29

I decided to just have them test for the L23 marker. It came back positive for the SNPs L23+ and the revised Haplogroup is R1b1a2a.

I can have more tests done, but I don't know what they might show or whether they would be worth following up.

Does L23+ mean that there is more information available or just that there may be more information?

In other words, could it still mean that we are related to those Armenians where none belong to subclades?

Is it really most likely that our roots lie in Kosovo, Macedonia or Serbia and could additional tests confirm this?

And what about Poland and Bashkortostan??? Do I need to rule them out with more tests?

Or have I completely misunderstood?

Thank you for your time. :) :) :)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 09:24:00 PM by Trish13 » Logged
acekon
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2013, 09:35:30 PM »

Hi Trish do you have the 25 str markers available?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 09:36:50 PM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
A_Wode
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2013, 11:44:11 PM »



As far as I am concerned, it's as much Greek as any other haplogroup. R1b reaches high levels in 'Classical' southern Greece, as well as historical Greek provinces in Turkey, as well as Albania who, along with Greece differ autosomally from other countries in the Balkans which appear more Slavic. (ie: Serbia, Bulgaria..etc)

Bashkortostan is a false positive which is often quoted on the internet, but there is probably very little value in making this association. N1c1 and R1a1a are equally as high among those populations, if not higher.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 11:45:46 PM by A_Wode » Logged
Trish13
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2013, 09:27:29 AM »

Hi Trish do you have the 25 str markers available?

Hello Acekon. Thanks for responding. :)

Our Svombo Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA)  was tested to 37 markers:

DYS393: 13
DYS390: 24
DYS19: 14
DYS391: 11
DYS385: 11-11
DYS426: 12
DYS388: 12
DYS439: 12
DYS389-I: 13
DYS392: 13
DYS389-II: 29
DYS458: 16
DYS459: 8-10
DYS455: 11
DYS454: 11
DYS447: 25
DYS437: 15
DYS448: 19
DYS449: 30
DYS464: 14-16-16-17
DYS460: 11
GATA-H4: 11
YCAII: 19-23
DYS456: 15
DYS607: 16
DYS576: 17
DYS570: 18
CDY: 36-40
DYS442: 11
DYS438: 12

This gave us Haplogroup: R1b1a2 (R-M269)

The sample was then tested for SNP  L23+ yielding a positive result.

This gave us Confirmed Haplogroup: R1b1a2a (R-L23)
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Trish13
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2013, 09:38:25 AM »

Quote from: A_Wode
As far as I am concerned, it's as much Greek as any other haplogroup. R1b reaches high levels in 'Classical' southern Greece, as well as historical Greek provinces in Turkey, as well as Albania who, along with Greece differ autosomally from other countries in the Balkans which appear more Slavic. (ie: Serbia, Bulgaria..etc)

...

Hi A_Wode. Thanks for responding.

I had the additional SNP L23 tested because I noted the Balkans connection, but I have not been able to find anything specifically about Greece and the L23 marker. If you can recommend anything, then I would be very grateful. :)

I am intrigued by our non-Greek (Slavic?) name and the fact that Hydra seems to have been made up largely of Arvanite settlements. I am hoping that this DNA testing will help us to solve the mystery of our Balkan origins.

Thank you for your comments. :)
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acekon
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2013, 10:44:45 AM »

...
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 11:13:58 AM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
acekon
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2013, 11:13:16 AM »

I see you have set up an account on ysearch-593AD, you are a little distance from Fega an Albanian, so there might very well be an Arvanite connection.
 Have you tested for snp Z2105?

« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 11:17:51 AM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
Trish13
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2013, 12:38:25 PM »

I see you have set up an account on ysearch-593AD, you are a little distance from Fega an Albanian, so there might very well be an Arvanite connection.
Have you tested for snp Z2105?

Hi :)

No, I haven't. Once I had had L23 tested, I then had no idea where to go next.

Is SNP Z2105 relevant to Arvanite history? It doesn't look as if it is one that is available to me on FT DNA. At least I can't see it on the 'Advanced SNP Test' ordering page.

Also, is there a test which would confirm a Serb background?

Thank you very much!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 01:24:32 PM by Trish13 » Logged
acekon
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2013, 04:33:51 PM »

I see you have set up an account on ysearch-593AD, you are a little distance from Fega an Albanian, so there might very well be an Arvanite connection.
Have you tested for snp Z2105?

Hi :)

No, I haven't. Once I had had L23 tested, I then had no idea where to go next.

Is SNP Z2105 relevant to Arvanite history? It doesn't look as if it is one that is available to me on FT DNA. At least I can't see it on the 'Advanced SNP Test' ordering page.

Also, is there a test which would confirm a Serb background?

Thank you very much!

The territory R1b-z2105 covers is quite vast, and sparse, so it could be quite old, in theory; ie. from Ireland to India/Pakistan . In general you could use the map of Indo-European languages to overlay it's territory, as a rough guide.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/IE1500BP.png

If you go to Ht 35 project you will get an idea of territory Z2105 covers.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ymap

Use map function

scroll down to
_a
_b.  [ R1b Z2103 Z2105 L51-] you can zoom in around your region of interest.
_c

From what I've seen  Z2105 has pockets more around Albanians and Croats,  I'm not sure about Serbs. I'm also in the Z2105 cluster btw, my paternal family comes from around Silesia.

Here is snp r1b tree. You have test the marker in red, green and blue are downstream.

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

 R1b1a2*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a   23/PF6534/S141, L49.1/S349
•   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •    R1b1a2a1  L150/PF6274
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1*   -
•   •    •   •    •   •    •   •    R1b1a2a1a   L51/M412/PF6536/S167
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 04:41:57 PM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
Trish13
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2013, 08:23:46 PM »

Thank you Acekon. That does seem to cover a large area. I would like to try to narrow things down a bit.

I was confused to see that on Wikipedia, it implied that L23 was likely to be Serb or Kosovan, whereas a page I found on Serbian ancestral genes did not mention L23 at all.

I think I even saw that it could be found in Pakistan and various other places. I am really confused by this.

Do you know, please, if there is a specific area, where L23 ancestors are supposed to have lived? Serbia /Albania / Kosovo sounded like a good bet when I first had the results back.

Certainly, my gggfather came to the British Isles, from Greece, with a Serbian-type name. Maybe, eventually, I shall have to have an upgrade to get more info or choose several SNPs. :)
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OConnor
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 09:31:24 PM »

I'm wondering if DYS385: 11-11 can point to a possible subclade?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Trish13
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 06:21:18 AM »

Hello OConnor :)

Thank you very much for responding.

Do you think that this looks likely? I really don't know enough about it :)

I read that DYS385: 11-11 can mutate quickly and easily, even from father to son, so wondered about the usefulness of this marker.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 10:15:46 AM by Trish13 » Logged
A_Wode
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 01:58:09 PM »

@Trish13,

Yes it is, in fact some have dubbed this cluster the Albanian-Greek cluster, but I have seen it among 1 or 2 Bulgarians. It is also known from the latest autosomal studies that Albanians and Greeks differ from other populations in the Balkans, they actually pull away from the Slavic speaking groups. It may be oversimplification, but perhaps this is due to the higher level of R1b among both these countries. That stands out immediately (~18% R1b among Albanians, 20-30% among southern Greeks)

Only about 10% of Serbs are R1b from the latest studies, while this is significant it is not overwhelming. R1b is not found in high quantities among South Slavic speakers to which Serbs belong, the exception among Slavs being maybe North West Poland or some border areas between Germany and Poland.

If I had to guess, I would argue your cluster is one of the oldest in the region, or at least may represent an old movement of people to the southern Balkans from the southern tip of Italy. A east to west movement is also plausible from Turkey.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 04:58:53 PM »

With DYS385=11-11 and DYS459=8-10, it is clearly a R-L23/L150/Z2105+ “Albanian cluster” for Argiedude and “Balkan cluster” for me. We have written a lot about this.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Trish13
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 09:07:26 PM »

Hello A_Wode and Maliclavelli :) :)

And thank you!

Indeed, thanks to everyone!

So I really do seem to be looking at Albanian Greeks ~ the Arvanites, presumably ~ which would fit with the Hydra background.

I'm guessing, then, that the Slavic / Serbian surname must simply be a result of Serb influence in the region, rather than Serb DNA in our genes.

I am surprised at the potential steps backward to either Southern Greece or to Turkey. I had assumed that the Arbanesh moved from Albania to Southern Italy in a similar manner to how the Arvanites moved from Albania into Greece.

I read that movement of this marker to the Balkans was from the North east, across the Steppe. Is that incorrect or is it just earlier?

Does anyone know if there are any books, which could help me with this, please?

What would you do next, if you were me?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 12:39:02 AM by Trish13 » Logged
acekon
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2013, 02:59:24 AM »


I read that movement of this marker to the Balkans was from the North east, across the Steppe. Is that incorrect or is it just earlier?

Does anyone know if there are any books, which could help me with this, please?

What would you do next, if you were me?

Thanks!

As the above posts point out, there is a good chance that you will be in R1b-Z2015. After that there are only L277 and L584 and a potential unkown cluster or clusters as some of the R1b-Z2105+ are L277- and L584-. Besides Balkans,  Eastern Europe,Italy,  Albania and Greece , there are some samples also found in Ukraine,  Steppe region, Pakistan/India,  Caucasus/Anatolia/ N. W. Iran and Northern Iraq. Here is a  diagram showing the R1b tree, and placement of R1b-Z2105

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/
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YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
geni
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2013, 01:43:11 PM »

With DYS385=11-11 and DYS459=8-10, it is clearly a R-L23/L150/Z2105+ “Albanian cluster” for Argiedude and “Balkan cluster” for me. We have written a lot about this.
Yes my dear friend...Trish 13 ..you Dna look Albano-Grek.(  I say balkan for my friend maliclavelli)...with 11-11,459,8-10,..willkomen my friend..
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Y-DNA : R1b1a2a1 L23+L150+ ,Z2103+,Z2105+-L51 -L310-P312,-U106
MTDNA : J(1c?)
Trish13
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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2013, 02:10:23 PM »

Yes my dear friend...Trish 13 ..you Dna look Albano-Grek.(  I say balkan for my friend maliclavelli)...with 11-11,459,8-10,..willkomen my friend..

' Albano-Greek'. That certainly fits and it's the sort od information that I was hoping for. Thank you Geni ! :)
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Trish13
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« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2013, 02:21:54 PM »

As the above posts point out, there is a good chance that you will be in R1b-Z2015. After that there are only L277 and L584 and a potential unkown cluster or clusters as some of the R1b-Z2105+ are L277- and L584-. Besides Balkans,  Eastern Europe, Italy,  Albania and Greece , there are some samples also found in Ukraine,  Steppe region, Pakistan/India,  Caucasus/Anatolia/ N. W. Iran and Northern Iraq. Here is a  diagram showing the R1b tree, and placement of R1b-Z2105

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/
Hi Acekon! :)
Thank you for all your help! I've had a look at the diagram. That's interesting.

Based on the other information available ~ ie. my gggf being Greek, the Serbian-sounding surname, that name only being found on Hydra Island but a similar one being found near the Albanian border, the Arvanite settlement in Hydra, etc, it  does look as if my ancestors were Albanian-Greeks, rather than being Indian or Iranian, etc. Of course, Anatolia is close, as is Italy, so I am still wondering about those areas.

Where they came from, beforehand, is still a mystery to me, of course. Does anyone know?

I think that I need to check Z2015. Within the areas you mention, do you know where the highest concentration of this marker has been traced to?

Thank you!
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2013, 04:11:41 PM »

I think that I need to check Z2015.

Within the “Balkan cluster” Ciulla and Fega have already been tested for Z2103 and Z2105 and they are positive, then your test will be an useless expense: you are surely Z2103+ and Z2105+. Certainly Ciulla is a Sicilian of Arbereshe origin and who belongs to this cluster in Italy came from the Balkans, like Varipapa, who is the first R-L23+/Z2110+.
About the ancient origin of this cluster I hypothesized that the witness of its origin were the Italian Risso, but nobody has tested him so far for these SNPs, then it is only a speculation. We’ll be able to answer this question when we know the origin of R-L23*. For this we are searching for the first R-L23+/L150+ and Z2103 or Z2105-. We haven’t yet found it and we don’t know if it exists somewhere.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Trish13
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« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2013, 06:12:41 PM »

.... you are surely Z2103+ and Z2105+ ....

Hello Maliclavelli :)
Please forgive my ignorance, but how are you so sure, if I don't test?
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Trish13
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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2013, 07:23:25 PM »

Hi again.

I took a look at my closest matches on FTDNA. They only provided 25 marker matches as none were close enough at 37. (Thus the matches given cannot be very useful, surely?)

I took the names given to me and found the closest to me at 37 markers ~ recording only the ones which give a 60%+ chance of a common ancestor at 24 generations (which, I appreciate, is a long way back.)

Out of interest, here they are in order of closeness per FTDNA 25 marker matches (full names removed):

Svombo Comparative Results - Closeness (only showing above 60 %) at 24 generations / 37 markers - FT DNA:

M.Meta: R1b1a2a1 ~ L150 (67.65% ~ CA@24g / 37m)

D.N.M: (67.80% ~ CA@24g / 37m)

B.P: (MDA: C.P. b. c. 1920, Greece) R1b1 ~ P25 (81.80% ~ CA@24g / 37m)   

M.Ciulla: (MDA: P.Ciulla, b.1880s, Sicily ~ Arberesh) R1b1a2a ~ L23 (60.47% ~ CA@24g / 37m)   

J.T: (80.67% ~ CA@24g / 37m)   

J.G: (MDA: California) (66.61% ~ CA@24g / 37m)

MDA = Most Distant Ancestor   
CA@24g / 37m = chance of common ancestor at 24 generations, using 37 markers)   
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geni
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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2013, 07:42:00 PM »

Hi again.

I took a look at my closest matches on FTDNA. They only provided 25 marker matches as none were close enough at 37. (Thus the matches given cannot be very useful, surely?)

I took the names given to me and found the closest to me at 37 markers ~ recording only the ones which give a 60%+ chance of a common ancestor at 24 generations (which, I appreciate, is a long way back.)

Out of interest, here they are in order of closeness per FTDNA 25 marker matches (full names removed):

Svombo Comparative Results - Closeness (only showing above 60 %) at 24 generations / 37 markers - FT DNA:

M.Meta: R1b1a2a1 ~ L150 (67.65% ~ CA@24g / 37m)

D.N.M: (67.80% ~ CA@24g / 37m)

B.P: (MDA: C.P. b. c. 1920, Greece) R1b1 ~ P25 (81.80% ~ CA@24g / 37m)   

M.Ciulla: (MDA: P.Ciulla, b.1880s, Sicily ~ Arberesh) R1b1a2a ~ L23 (60.47% ~ CA@24g / 37m)   

J.T: (80.67% ~ CA@24g / 37m)   

J.G: (MDA: California) (66.61% ~ CA@24g / 37m)

MDA = Most Distant Ancestor   
CA@24g / 37m = chance of common ancestor at 24 generations, using 37 markers)   

Man i have you in my map y.dna match....uau...look in your map please..(Fega).
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 07:43:40 PM by geni » Logged

Y-DNA : R1b1a2a1 L23+L150+ ,Z2103+,Z2105+-L51 -L310-P312,-U106
MTDNA : J(1c?)
Trish13
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« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 08:32:38 PM »

Hi Geni :)

Found you!

That's very interesting, because you did not come up as a match for my line, but now I can add you to my list :)


M.Geni.Fega (69.58% ~ CA@24g / 37m)
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2013, 06:58:20 AM »


Hello Maliclavelli :)
Please forgive my ignorance, but how are you so sure, if I don't test?
Because you belong to the same cluster with DYS385=11-11 and DYS459=8-10. Probably you should have also DYS446=14 or more. You all descend from one person who was R-L23/Z2103/Z2105+. When you compare your data with others, look at these values above all, because they are stable from many hundreds of years.

Anyway if you want to spend your money, do it.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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