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Bren123
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« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2013, 03:57:45 PM »

Well there is that joke that says the welsh are the irish that couldn't swim!

:-)

huh?
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LDJ
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« Reply #76 on: February 04, 2013, 04:58:06 PM »

Mallory deals with the
First Colonists - Mesolithic
First Farmers - Neolithic
Beakers and Metal - Bronze
Warriors - Late Bronze
The Iron Age
Celtic Mythology
Genetics
Language
I have updated my Pinterest board to reflect his structure.

www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/

I have not made a lot of progress so far.
He appears to argue for a mixture of Atlantic and Continental networks.
I will go through it in detail to try to understand his position.

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gtc
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« Reply #77 on: February 04, 2013, 11:47:41 PM »

Well there is that joke that says the welsh are the irish that couldn't swim!

:-)

huh?

:-) is a smile.
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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
dodelo
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« Reply #78 on: February 05, 2013, 02:06:06 PM »


[/quote]

huh?
[/quote]

 "I feel good " J. Brown 1965
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avalon
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« Reply #79 on: February 05, 2013, 05:25:12 PM »

So, from where do the Irish originate?

Multiple places, as per usual for European peoples. There is nary a one that can claim a single origin for all the DNA in all the people who currently hold a passport from a particular nation, unless we are going to track it all back to the first Homo sapiens. You posted earlier:

Quote
I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Metallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Mallory agrees with you on #1 and #2 and partly on #3. He feels that the Bell Beaker/metallurgy arrival involved community/family immigration from both Atlantic Europe and northern Britain. What I find really interesting is the evidence he lays out for a change in the Late BB period in Ireland, which I had suspected. (He does not say so, but I suspect that Late BB is when the earliest Celtic arrived in Ireland via Britain. It looks to me as though the early BB in Ireland came up the Atlantic coast from Portugal via Brittany and was associated with an Italo-Celtic dialect.)

Mallory is keener on the idea that Celtic arrived somewhat later, with the rise of hillforts c. 1000 BC.  



But, in terms of genetics...

The Mesolithic hunter gatherers who crossed over into Britain and Ireland have not left a trace in the modern population, mainly because their way of life was replaced by the incoming farmers and they died out. Also, it was a long time ago and humans aren't that resilient. However, we need more ancient DNA from the Isles to be sure of this.

Likewise, during 2,500 years of the Neolithic many waves of farmers came to the Isles by various routes, but again on the Y-DNA, these lineages haven't survived to the modern day because new folks arrived in the Bronze Age, Bell Beaker, who have left descendants.

So basically, the modern Irish and British only carry small traces of Neolithic and Mesolithic genes and I would guess this is more on the mtDNA due to the practice of incomers taking local wives.

Incidentally, do we have enough modern DNA data from all corners of the Isles to be sure of these conclusions? I mean where is the data coming from, we have genetic databases with a strong North American interest and some published genetic studies within the last 15 years?

Can we rely on current dating methods for SNPs, etc?








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Bren123
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« Reply #80 on: February 06, 2013, 01:51:35 PM »

So, from where do the Irish originate?

Multiple places, as per usual for European peoples. There is nary a one that can claim a single origin for all the DNA in all the people who currently hold a passport from a particular nation, unless we are going to track it all back to the first Homo sapiens. You posted earlier:

Quote
I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Metallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Mallory agrees with you on #1 and #2 and partly on #3. He feels that the Bell Beaker/metallurgy arrival involved community/family immigration from both Atlantic Europe and northern Britain. What I find really interesting is the evidence he lays out for a change in the Late BB period in Ireland, which I had suspected. (He does not say so, but I suspect that Late BB is when the earliest Celtic arrived in Ireland via Britain. It looks to me as though the early BB in Ireland came up the Atlantic coast from Portugal via Brittany and was associated with an Italo-Celtic dialect.)

Mallory is keener on the idea that Celtic arrived somewhat later, with the rise of hillforts c. 1000 BC.  



But, in terms of genetics...

The Mesolithic hunter gatherers who crossed over into Britain and Ireland have not left a trace in the modern population, mainly because their way of life was replaced by the incoming farmers and they died out. Also, it was a long time ago and humans aren't that resilient. However, we need more ancient DNA from the Isles to be sure of this.

Likewise, during 2,500 years of the Neolithic many waves of farmers came to the Isles by various routes, but again on the Y-DNA, these lineages haven't survived to the modern day because new folks arrived in the Bronze Age, Bell Beaker, who have left descendants.

So basically, the modern Irish and British only carry small traces of Neolithic and Mesolithic genes and I would guess this is more on the mtDNA due to the practice of incomers taking local wives.

Incidentally, do we have enough modern DNA data from all corners of the Isles to be sure of these conclusions? I mean where is the data coming from, we have genetic databases with a strong North American interest and some published genetic studies within the last 15 years?

Can we rely on current dating methods for SNPs, etc?










Is there any aY-DNA from Bell Beaker and later bronze age Britain?
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« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2013, 04:22:27 PM »

So, from where do the Irish originate?

Multiple places, as per usual for European peoples. There is nary a one that can claim a single origin for all the DNA in all the people who currently hold a passport from a particular nation, unless we are going to track it all back to the first Homo sapiens. You posted earlier:

Quote
I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Metallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Mallory agrees with you on #1 and #2 and partly on #3. He feels that the Bell Beaker/metallurgy arrival involved community/family immigration from both Atlantic Europe and northern Britain. What I find really interesting is the evidence he lays out for a change in the Late BB period in Ireland, which I had suspected. (He does not say so, but I suspect that Late BB is when the earliest Celtic arrived in Ireland via Britain. It looks to me as though the early BB in Ireland came up the Atlantic coast from Portugal via Brittany and was associated with an Italo-Celtic dialect.)

Mallory is keener on the idea that Celtic arrived somewhat later, with the rise of hillforts c. 1000 BC.  



But, in terms of genetics...

The Mesolithic hunter gatherers who crossed over into Britain and Ireland have not left a trace in the modern population, mainly because their way of life was replaced by the incoming farmers and they died out. Also, it was a long time ago and humans aren't that resilient. However, we need more ancient DNA from the Isles to be sure of this.

Likewise, during 2,500 years of the Neolithic many waves of farmers came to the Isles by various routes, but again on the Y-DNA, these lineages haven't survived to the modern day because new folks arrived in the Bronze Age, Bell Beaker, who have left descendants.

So basically, the modern Irish and British only carry small traces of Neolithic and Mesolithic genes and I would guess this is more on the mtDNA due to the practice of incomers taking local wives.

Incidentally, do we have enough modern DNA data from all corners of the Isles to be sure of these conclusions? I mean where is the data coming from, we have genetic databases with a strong North American interest and some published genetic studies within the last 15 years?

Can we rely on current dating methods for SNPs, etc?










Is there any aY-DNA from Bell Beaker and later bronze age Britain?

I don't think so.

As far as I'm aware there isn't any ancient Y-DNA from anywhere in Ireland or Britain.

All of the these conclusions are based on modern Y-DNA and estimates of the age of subclades, SNPs.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #82 on: February 06, 2013, 04:28:58 PM »

I wouldn't mind but the National Museum of Ireland have dozens of skeletons that they have dug up over the years. One example I can think of is an entire early medieval (pre-norman) cemetery from County Donegal. You would imagine that they would at least be able to retrieve some viable ancient-DNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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Jean M
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« Reply #83 on: February 06, 2013, 05:42:25 PM »


Is there any aY-DNA from Bell Beaker and later bronze age Britain?

I don't think so. As far as I'm aware there isn't any ancient Y-DNA from anywhere in Ireland or Britain.

Not a sausage. Not published anyway, and if anyone is working on it, they are keeping pretty quiet. I haven't even seen the mtDNA U5 from Glencurran Cave, Ireland (1500 BC) properly published. It was done for a TV programme as I recall. And that's the total sum of aDNA from Ireland that I know about. Britain has more published, but frankly not very well published on the whole.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 05:44:04 PM by Jean M » Logged
gtc
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« Reply #84 on: February 06, 2013, 05:59:03 PM »

I wouldn't mind but the National Museum of Ireland have dozens of skeletons that they have dug up over the years. One example I can think of is an entire early medieval (pre-norman) cemetery from County Donegal. You would imagine that they would at least be able to retrieve some viable ancient-DNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)

The problem with old bones not exhumed and stored with DNA testing in mind is the risk of contamination by the many people who have handled them over the years. In the recent case of Richard III, the team took extraordinary steps to eliminate the possibility of contamination.
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« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2013, 01:56:44 AM »

But no Y, any relatives of Anjou folk to test it against in Britain (probably not angleterre, after  tje purges) or France?

wrt R3
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 01:59:37 AM by sernam » Logged
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« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2013, 08:05:44 AM »

I wouldn't mind but the National Museum of Ireland have dozens of skeletons that they have dug up over the years. One example I can think of is an entire early medieval (pre-norman) cemetery from County Donegal. You would imagine that they would at least be able to retrieve some viable ancient-DNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I remember a cist grave being found near me about 25 years ago. I'm certain there were bone fragments found, everything is in some archive in The Natural History Museum.
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« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2013, 08:17:57 AM »

I watched the press conference live. I was a great achievement by the team from the University of Leicester.
This brings to mind the fact that Europe's, Abbeys, Cathedrals and Reliquaries are full of the bones of great and some not so great Kings and Queens. Aachen Cathedral has the giant skeleton of Charlemagne perfectly preserved in a golden casket.
The small church yard of Iona contains the last resting places of over 60 Kings of Scotland, Ireland and Norway, probably M222 as there is a documented paternal genealogy back to Niall.
The graves are unmarked as the markings have eroded with time. Perhaps it would be a worthwhile project to test the remains, document their ancestral relationships and give them a proper resting place with marked tombs, fit for kings, in this holy place.
"The ancient burial ground, called the Rèilig Odhrain (Eng: Oran's "burial place" or "cemetery"), contains the 12th century chapel of St Odhrán (said to be Columba's uncle), restored at the same time as the Abbey itself. It contains a number of medieval grave monuments. The abbey graveyard contains the graves of many early Scottish Kings, as well as kings from Ireland, Norway and France. Iona became the burial site for the kings of Dál Riata and their successors. Notable burials there include:
Cináed mac Ailpín, king of the Picts (also known today as "Kenneth I of Scotland")
Domnall mac Causantín, alternatively "king of the Picts" or "king of Alba" (i.e. Scotland; known as "Donald II")
Máel Coluim mac Domnaill, king of Scotland ("Malcolm I")
Donnchad mac Crínáin, king of Scotland ("Duncan I")
Mac Bethad mac Findlaích, king of Scotland ("Macbeth")
Domnall mac Donnchada, king of Scotland ("Domnall Bán" or "Donald III")
John Smith Labour Party Leader
In 1549 an inventory of 48 Scottish, 8 Norwegian and 4 Irish kings was recorded. None of these graves are now identifiable (their inscriptions were reported to have worn away at the end of the 17th century). Saint Baithin and Saint Failbhe may also be buried on the island.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iona

The latest news is that they will try to find the remains of Alfred the Great and Henry I.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/shortcuts/2013/feb/05/will-dig-up-alfred-the-great
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 08:22:04 AM by Heber » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2013, 08:27:45 AM »

I believe Paternal and Maternal Haplogroups and their matching frequency can tell us a very interesting story about our deep ancestry of Ireland but also can give clues to our more recent ancestors migratory experience.

I do not believe the power of this analysis is used to the full extent by 23andme, FTDNA or by Geno 2.0 for that matter.

First it is interesting to see what the latest research says about our ancestors migrations. In my case I use the latest data from J.P.Mallorys book "The Origin of the Irish". It tells the following story.

Table 8.1 mtDNA of Modern Irish Population

H 39%
U 13%
K 11%
J 10%
V 4%
T 2%
X 2%

Table 8.2 Subgroups of mtDNA haplogroup H

H1, H3, H4, H5a, H6, H7, H13
Table 8.3 mtDNA haplogroups of Ireland
Haplogroup. Home In Ireland (KYA)

U Greece. 7.3
X. Caucasus 5.5
H. S. France 5.5
V. N. Iberia. 5.5
T. N. Italy. 5.5
K. N. Italy 5.5
J. Near East 4.0

Table 8.4 genetic composition of modern Irish according to mtDNA haplogroups

Pre-farming
D, H, HV, I, K, T, T2, T4, U, U2, U4, U5, U5a, U5a1, U5b, V, W, X

Farming
J, J1a, J1b, J2, T1, U3

8.5 The proposed migration of R1b-14 ("Rory") from Iberia to Ireland.
Shows a clear migration route along the Atllantic facade from Iberia to Ireland

Table 8.5 Major Y chromosome halpogroups in Ireland
Pre-farming
R1a, R1a1, R1b3, IJK, PN3, N3, I1a, I1b2, I1c
Farming
E3b, G, J

Table 8.6 Distribution of Y chromosome haplogroup R1b among populations in Ireland. Irish surnames were compared to non Irish surnames.

Source. %R1b
Connacht. 98
Munster. 95
Ulster. 81
Leinster. 73
English. 63
Scottish. 53
Norman/Norse. 83

The Irish modal haplogroup (M222) and its ancestors
Shown the haplogroup tree from M269 > L11 > U106, P312 > L21, U152 > M222
M222 accounts for about 5% of Irishmen

Distribution of L21 (M529)
Map with peak in Ireland and distribution along the Atlantic Facade

Next I look at my over 1,000 Relative Finder matches and create a Network Diagram mapping Paternal Haplogroup to Maternal Haplogroup and Maternal Haplogroup to Paternal Haplogroup. This is consistent with the findings of Mallory but in addition it gives me clues to the more recent migrations of my ancestors.
The dominant L21 Paternal and H1 Maternal who stayed in Ireland is reflected in the diagram. Those ancestors who migrated to the US and were the earliest settlers of Minnesota and married with other Irish families or with the local German families in Minnesota as reflected in the U106 matches.
Again this is entirely consistent with my knowledge of my ancestors story and with the latest scientific studies.

The Paternal analysis gives the following picture.
RF Paternal Haplogroup Mapped to Maternal Haplogroup Matches. R 373, R1a 29, R1b 373, M269 1, L23 3, L11 44, U106 51, U152 25, P312 20, L21 124, M222 63, J24, I115, G11, E11, U106 51.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764829573/

The Maternal Analysis gives the following picture.
RF Maternal Haplogroup Mapped to Paternal Haplogroup Matches. Matches 1048 H 461, H1 119, H2 31, H3 45, H4, 23, H5 32, H6 24, H7 15, J 101, K 79, T 102, U 134.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764829567/

My conclusion is that our Paternal and Maternal Haplogroups and their matches tell us a much more powerful story than is currently available with Haplogroup Analysis alone or Ancestry Composition.
Even Geno 2.0 which is the benchmark for deep ancestry does not exploit this capability.

There is a case to be made for integrating the data available from RF and AC and Haplogroup Tree Mutation Mapper to give a more accurate picture of our ancestors migrations.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764374874/

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534763591605/

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-migrations-dna/

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 08:30:47 AM by Heber » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2013, 02:04:36 PM »

I wouldn't mind but the National Museum of Ireland have dozens of skeletons that they have dug up over the years. One example I can think of is an entire early medieval (pre-norman) cemetery from County Donegal. You would imagine that they would at least be able to retrieve some viable ancient-DNA.

-Paul
(DF41+)

It's a good point, although GTC is right regarding contamination. There's quite a lot of cemeteries/graveyards out there, and i think it would be good practice to start testing say one in every ten if the funding and means are available. One site i know about contained an estimated 1000 bodies...even 50 or 100 of these being tested (MT, Y and Autosomal if all three are possible) would give us a massive insight. Even 5 or 10 every so often for a number of years could build up a valuable aDNA database.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2013, 08:57:44 PM »

I've got an idea, let's just go with this:

"No one knows the origins of the Irish, or how Q-Celtic got to Ireland, but the best guess is that somehow people crossed Britain from northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Q-Celtic in Ireland is the greatest mystery in the study of languages and will never be solved. All that can be certain is that it did NOT arrive from Iberia!"

That's pretty darn close, isn't it?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 09:03:29 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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avalon
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« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2013, 07:14:04 AM »

I've got an idea, let's just go with this:

"No one knows the origins of the Irish, or how Q-Celtic got to Ireland, but the best guess is that somehow people crossed Britain from northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Q-Celtic in Ireland is the greatest mystery in the study of languages and will never be solved. All that can be certain is that it did NOT arrive from Iberia!"

That's pretty darn close, isn't it?

Not sure about the language origin but there are plenty of prehistoric links between Ireland and the Atlantic West from Brittany down to Iberia.

Barry Cunliffe is a  big cheerleader of these Atlantic connections whether it be the Megalithic passage graves and dolmens or Martitime Bell Beaker. I imagine that some element of the DNA from this period has survived to modern day Ireland even if these people didn't bring Celtic.







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eochaidh
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« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2013, 09:33:51 PM »

I've got an idea, let's just go with this:

"No one knows the origins of the Irish, or how Q-Celtic got to Ireland, but the best guess is that somehow people crossed Britain from northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands. Q-Celtic in Ireland is the greatest mystery in the study of languages and will never be solved. All that can be certain is that it did NOT arrive from Iberia!"

That's pretty darn close, isn't it?

Not sure about the language origin but there are plenty of prehistoric links between Ireland and the Atlantic West from Brittany down to Iberia.

Barry Cunliffe is a  big cheerleader of these Atlantic connections whether it be the Megalithic passage graves and dolmens or Martitime Bell Beaker. I imagine that some element of the DNA from this period has survived to modern day Ireland even if these people didn't bring Celtic.









Cunnliffe may feel that way, but this thread is about Mallory's book on Irish origins. He is so bold as to say the Irish come from Britain!
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2013, 05:39:50 AM »

Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*
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« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2013, 08:13:54 AM »

Just to assure myself that my impression was correct, I have skimmed through this entire thread again.  Only a handful of people have actually read the Mallory book, before posting; and I think only two of that handful (Heber and JeanM) have even mentioned that it is written "with humor."

I've rarely read an academic study that made me laugh as often.  Mallory's treatment is far from reverent, and the funny bits sneak up on one.  My wife keeps asking me what's funny, so I have had to read more of it aloud than is normally the case with such works.

I've just arrived at Chapter Eight (of ten), in which he's going to talk about the DNA.  So I still don't have anything to say about that.  But it's a very enjoyable and informative read.
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« Reply #95 on: February 15, 2013, 12:08:32 PM »

Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*

My heart is ticking over as normal, don't worry. I'm just heaving a sigh. Britain today is full of Sassenachs. But if you can mentally peel them off the picture, you see the place was full of Celts a couple of thousand years ago. So paddling down the Celtic Rhine and traversing Celtic Britain before being drawn to the copper and gold of Celtic Ireland would be a completely Sassenach-free trip.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 12:11:26 PM by Jean M » Logged
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« Reply #96 on: February 15, 2013, 01:05:39 PM »

... I've rarely read an academic study that made me laugh as often.  Mallory's treatment is far from reverent, and the funny bits sneak up on one.  My wife keeps asking me what's funny, so I have had to read more of it aloud than is normally the case with such works....

Ironically, Mallory is from California.

I say that because I enjoy the dry and witty British humour. Another Mallory (played by Ralph Fiennes) in the James Bond Skyfall  has my favorite line, when he tells a politician during a hearing:
Quote
For the sake of variety, perhaps we can let the witness speak
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/Skyfall




For the Celts there is some beautiful scenery from the Scottish Highlands.
http://surprise.visitscotland.com/whats_new/skyfall.aspx

... sorry, probably giving away too much of the film.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 01:08:17 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #97 on: February 15, 2013, 01:54:01 PM »

Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*

Okay, then, Mallory suggest that the Irish come from the island to the east of them. Still, an amazingly bold statement! I thought they might have come from the Continent, but no, they come from the island next to them. No one knows where the people on the island east of Ireland came from.
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« Reply #98 on: February 15, 2013, 02:08:11 PM »

Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*

My heart is ticking over as normal, don't worry. I'm just heaving a sigh. Britain today is full of Sassenachs. But if you can mentally peel them off the picture, you see the place was full of Celts a couple of thousand years ago. So paddling down the Celtic Rhine and traversing Celtic Britain before being drawn to the copper and gold of Celtic Ireland would be a completely Sassenach-free trip.

My comment had nothing to do with English or Saxons. What I'm saying is that to say the Irish come from their next door neighbor is a bit non-specific.

It would be like paying a genetic genealogist and having tell me I descend from my parents.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 02:18:44 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: February 15, 2013, 05:01:39 PM »

Assigning modern political boundaries onto the situation several thousand years ago is no doubt gonna give certain people a coronary *rolls eyes*

Okay, then, Mallory suggest that the Irish come from the island to the east of them. Still, an amazingly bold statement! I thought they might have come from the Continent, but no, they come from the island next to them. No one knows where the people on the island east of Ireland came from.

I think it's quite likely that in prehistory some people may have traveled straight to what we now call Ireland from what we now call Brittany, or further afield, and not passed through what we now call Britain.

It's a heck of a long boat journey though!

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