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Author Topic: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory  (Read 8049 times)
rms2
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« on: January 10, 2013, 10:08:29 PM »

http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Irish-J-P-Mallory/dp/0500051755/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357813415&sr=1-1&keywords=origins+of+the+irish

Dr. Mallory has a new book out called The Origins of the Irish, which is supposed to include info from dna research.

Heard about it from alantrowelhands.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 09:11:31 AM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2013, 06:52:09 AM »

I tried to order it.

 
 This title has not yet been released.
You may pre-order it now and we will deliver it to you when it arrives.
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inver2b1
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2013, 08:07:23 AM »

I wonder how up to date the DNA research is.
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2013, 10:07:10 AM »

I'm predicting that they will determine that most of the male Irish lineage is L21.  Sorry, joke, couldn't help it.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2013, 06:20:52 PM »

I pre-ordered it:

Delivery Estimate: Wednesday April 3, 2013
The Origins of the Irish The Origins of the Irish
J. P. Mallory
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R-M222
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2013, 06:55:59 PM »

I'm predicting that they will determine that most of the male Irish lineage is L21.  Sorry, joke, couldn't help it.

That's probably dead on, unfortunately.
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2013, 08:43:40 PM »

I'm predicting that they will determine that most of the male Irish lineage is L21.  Sorry, joke, couldn't help it.

I expect that's right, but it's what Mallory says about how it got to Ireland that interests me.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2013, 12:23:17 AM »

I understand Jean M showed him her book.  If I am right on that then he should have a very up to date understanding of DNA evidence and not come out with ice age refugia stuff.  However, I doubt he will do more than cite some recent studies etc and I cant imagine he will have new info.  He might give an opinion on interpretation.  I would expect him (and most archaeologists) to be a little troubled with the way R1b and beaker are now linked by some as traditionally this has not been seen as a particularly strong or migratory culture in Ireland.  I would have a hunch he might lean towards first farmers in Ireland bringing R1b if he makes any comment at all.  I also understand he isnt a fan of Celtic being spoken until late in the Bronze Age (say 1000BC give or take) but I am not sure what his latest view is on this. It wont be the last word (there never will be) on the subject but his knowledge as an archaeologist, linguist, anthropologist etc is bordering on unique in this field so his opinions need to be taken seriously indeed.     
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2013, 12:07:43 PM »

Amazon as they have dispatched my copy so should have in next couple of days
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Jean M
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2013, 01:25:43 PM »

I understand Jean M showed him her book.    

I also saw the genetic section of his forthcoming book on the Irish before final stage. Since he not a geneticist, of course he is reliant on what geneticists have published. It is no use expecting ancient DNA to be pulled out of the bag or any amazing new revelations. The impression I got though was of a highly readable presentation and his usual sceptical intelligence being brought to bear on all material. I expect this book to fly off the shelves.  
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 01:27:15 PM by Jean M » Logged
Arch Y.
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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2013, 09:09:58 PM »

I wonder how up to date the DNA research is.

Always a good question. I've always liked Mallory's book on the Indo-Europeans, I just hope he didn't fall into the same trap as Cunliffe did.

Arch
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 09:10:39 PM by Arch Y. » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2013, 06:27:25 AM »

Amazon as they have dispatched my copy so should have in next couple of days

It seems it isn't available for despatch with Amazon UK until 21st January
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2013, 12:04:36 PM »

Amazon as they have dispatched my copy so should have in next couple of days

It seems it isn't available for despatch with Amazon UK until 21st January

Can U.S. Amazon customers order through Amazon UK or are we stuck with our US accounts and later shipping?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2013, 12:59:53 PM »

I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Meatallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Hibernia est omnis divisa in partes tres  :)
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2013, 04:57:17 PM »

Amazon as they have dispatched my copy so should have in next couple of days

It seems it isn't available for despatch with Amazon UK until 21st January

Can U.S. Amazon customers order through Amazon UK or are we stuck with our US accounts and later shipping?

Customers from the US can order through Amazon UK, but will have to pay extra postage.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 04:57:37 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
Newragh
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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2013, 07:32:59 PM »

I can't post images here, so here is a link to a post that I made on Eupedia.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26211-The-founding-and-migration-of-I2a2b?p=365153&viewfull=1#post365153.

The point of it was that wherever the peoples of Ireland originated on the Continent, it seems that they had a preference to enter Ireland from northern Britain, Galloway I suppose.

The Mesolithic, all four Neolithic and the LaTene artifacts are generally found in a line from the Shannon to the Boyne.

Only Bell Beaker artifacts are evenly spread. Even Saint Patrick worked in the La Tene area.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2013, 08:10:40 PM »

Amazon as they have dispatched my copy so should have in next couple of days

It seems it isn't available for despatch with Amazon UK until 21st January

I was initially told that then a day later got an email saying it could be dispatched sooner than thought and I got a final email a couple of days ago saying it was dispatched.  I probably would have it in my hands now if I hadnt gone for the free but slower option. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2013, 08:17:02 PM »

I think the Irish are mainly three parts:

1) Mesolithic Hunter/Gatherer (probably from the Continent through Britain)
2) Neolithic Danubian Farmer (probably from Brittany and the Netherlands through Britain)
3) Bronze Age Meatallurgist (probably from the Balkans by way of the Mediterranean and the Bay of Biscay)

On #3, I believe some entered southeastern France and spread through the country to the Atlantic coast.

Hibernia est omnis divisa in partes tres  :)

Miles - I think I would agree.  I think the Autosomal DNA is largely the first two.  The yDNA probably relates mainly to the third but I dont think there is quite enough evidence to 100% rule out the second being the big one given Ireland was only settled by farmers about 3800BC and given the uncertainty about variance dating.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2013, 05:53:19 AM »

It's interesting looking at stuff like Dodecad "Globe 13" calculator with regards to autosomal composition of Irish population.

Dienekes has 17 Irish participants in his "Irish_D" group. The breakdown of three major components is the following:
  • North_European:  59.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.7%
  • West_Asian:  6.2%

That adds up to 99%, the remaining 1 percentage consists of 0.6% South_Asian and 0.4% "Amerindian". Some of that could be spurious.

Of course what's interesting is that the French_Basque shows up as 0.2% West_Asian, compared to 7.4% for French_D and 5.1% for Spanish_D -- seperate "Spaniards" group was 7.1% West_Asian.

I myself show up with following components in my autosomal.

  • North_European:  54.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.5%
  • West_Asian:  9.4%
  • South_Asian: 2.2%
  • Amerindian: 0.9%


"North_European" looks likes it's probably the mesolithic component in Ireland and across Northern Europe. "Mediterranean" is probably showing the arrival of argiculture whereas "West Asian" is either connected to metal or more specifically Indo-Europeans (the lack of it among Basques is interesting in this regard)

Awh well until we get some ancient DNA from Ireland it's gonna be a guessing game.

-Paul
(DF41+)
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2013, 07:51:38 AM »

I've placed an order for this, according to Amazon the delivery estimate is: 24 Jan 2013 - 30 Jan 2013. €22.84 euro in total including delivery (about a third of price from UK -> Ireland)

-Paul
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eochaidh
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« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 09:44:40 PM »

It's interesting looking at stuff like Dodecad "Globe 13" calculator with regards to autosomal composition of Irish population.

Dienekes has 17 Irish participants in his "Irish_D" group. The breakdown of three major components is the following:
  • North_European:  59.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.7%
  • West_Asian:  6.2%

That adds up to 99%, the remaining 1 percentage consists of 0.6% South_Asian and 0.4% "Amerindian". Some of that could be spurious.

Of course what's interesting is that the French_Basque shows up as 0.2% West_Asian, compared to 7.4% for French_D and 5.1% for Spanish_D -- seperate "Spaniards" group was 7.1% West_Asian.

I myself show up with following components in my autosomal.

  • North_European:  54.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.5%
  • West_Asian:  9.4%
  • South_Asian: 2.2%
  • Amerindian: 0.9%


"North_European" looks likes it's probably the mesolithic component in Ireland and across Northern Europe. "Mediterranean" is probably showing the arrival of argiculture whereas "West Asian" is either connected to metal or more specifically Indo-Europeans (the lack of it among Basques is interesting in this regard)

Awh well until we get some ancient DNA from Ireland it's gonna be a guessing game.

-Paul
(DF41+)


I'm not all Irish (25%) French-Canadian, but I have a higher West Asian score than average for Irish or French. On Eurogenes, there is one woman from Leinster who often has West Asian scores similar to mine. I often search results for similar scores in Western Europe and it seems that a few in the Netherlands, Cornwall and Southern Germany had high scores. It seems to me that the West Asian score is Danubian.

I think a lot of Hg G came to Western Europe through that route, and I believe that Hg G also has a vacant spot around the Basque country.

I think maybe the West Asian score represents Neolithic Farmers by way of the Danube.

Kehoe (DF23+)
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Heber
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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2013, 01:21:28 AM »

rms2 (and Alan), thanks for the heads up. I ordered it today. Amazon.com quoted April delivery and Amazon.co.uk quoted January. Pity it's not available on Kindle. I suppose he will defend the Steppes model for PIE, which is fine as he is one of the leading proponents. I enjoy both his and Renfrew's debate on the subject.  It will be interesting to see how he describes the expansion of R1b (out of Anatolia, M269 ?) and the meeting of R1b and R1a PIE ( in the Balkens, L23 ?) and the expansion of Bell Beakers (Iberia L11, P312 ?). I hope he and other authors have anticipated future updates in electronic format eg Kindle or online in order to quickly integrate new results such as Geno 2.0 and BEAN.

My Ancestry 2.0 results were close to the reference population for UK and Irish (I guess Irish).

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764358676/

I get better definition when I use good old Halpogroup analysis for Y and mtDNA which shows the majority of my Relative Finder matches clustering around L21 and H1 and their defining mutations.

http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764489855/
http://pinterest.com/pin/32721534764489859/

Geno 2.0 is still incredibly slow in processing so no new results to report there although I expect to find myself firmly in the DF21 (Three Collas) cluster, hopefully with some new CTS SNPs.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 03:35:32 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Mark Jost
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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2013, 01:32:14 AM »

A while back I sent Doug McDonald my half maternal brothers U106 23andme data and he said, 
"Extremely aggressively Belgian in my new program ... never seen one like it! Yet the
 S. Asian in the above is puzzling, as the new program does not see it.
 
It does seem possible to fit it as 80% Orkney 20% Jewish, which of course
 average Belgium.


Europe            97.9%
 Oceania            0.4%
 America            0.9%
 Africa             0.2%
 E. Asia            0.0%
 
Europe            89.5%
 S. Asia           12.1%
 Oceania           -0.2%
 America            0.4%
 Africa            -0.3%
 E. Asia           -1.9%
 
Europe            85.1%
 Mideast            6.3%
 S. Asia           11.0%
 Oceania           -0.2%
 America            0.5%
 Africa            -1.2%
 E. Asia           -1.9%
 
So maybe the West Asian is similar.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Dubhthach
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2013, 05:25:46 AM »

It's interesting looking at stuff like Dodecad "Globe 13" calculator with regards to autosomal composition of Irish population.

Dienekes has 17 Irish participants in his "Irish_D" group. The breakdown of three major components is the following:
  • North_European:  59.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.7%
  • West_Asian:  6.2%

That adds up to 99%, the remaining 1 percentage consists of 0.6% South_Asian and 0.4% "Amerindian". Some of that could be spurious.

Of course what's interesting is that the French_Basque shows up as 0.2% West_Asian, compared to 7.4% for French_D and 5.1% for Spanish_D -- seperate "Spaniards" group was 7.1% West_Asian.

I myself show up with following components in my autosomal.

  • North_European:  54.1%
  • Mediterranean:  33.5%
  • West_Asian:  9.4%
  • South_Asian: 2.2%
  • Amerindian: 0.9%


"North_European" looks likes it's probably the mesolithic component in Ireland and across Northern Europe. "Mediterranean" is probably showing the arrival of argiculture whereas "West Asian" is either connected to metal or more specifically Indo-Europeans (the lack of it among Basques is interesting in this regard)

Awh well until we get some ancient DNA from Ireland it's gonna be a guessing game.

-Paul
(DF41+)


I'm not all Irish (25%) French-Canadian, but I have a higher West Asian score than average for Irish or French. On Eurogenes, there is one woman from Leinster who often has West Asian scores similar to mine. I often search results for similar scores in Western Europe and it seems that a few in the Netherlands, Cornwall and Southern Germany had high scores. It seems to me that the West Asian score is Danubian.

I think a lot of Hg G came to Western Europe through that route, and I believe that Hg G also has a vacant spot around the Basque country.

I think maybe the West Asian score represents Neolithic Farmers by way of the Danube.

Kehoe (DF23+)

Miles,

I'll need to dig into Dienekes posts but I believe he ran both the iceman (Ötzi) and the scandinavian neolithic + mesolithic and they all came up as 0% West-Asian. Ötzi had next to no "West Asian" component which in European populations is only seen in Sardinians and Basques. On a plot the sardianians actually plotted in middle between Ötzi and other Europeans (no doubt as they have admixture over last couple thousand years from mainland Europe).

Personally my feeling is that Basque is either a neolithic or Copper age language, after all it contains native words for metals (not borrowed from Indo-European), given their high levels of "Southern European" and connections showing to Sardianians it's fairly obvious that they aren't some sort of mesolithic "relic population"

-Paul
(DF41+)
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Heber
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2013, 08:05:02 AM »

Chapter 8 (28 pages) Blood, Skulls and Genes deals with the DNA evidence of Origins of the Irish. There is a helpful 13 page preview on Amazon.co.uk which includes an interesting analysis of the mtDNA evidence.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



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