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Author Topic: The Origins of the Irish: New Book by PIE Expert James Mallory  (Read 8016 times)
Dubhthach
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2013, 10:10:45 AM »

I see the book is available in Easons, saw a copy of it today in Dún Laoghaire, didn't buy it as I have it on order from Amazon (it's 6 euro more expensive in Easons to boot!)

There's at least one map taken from the M269 study, from a quick glance through that chapter the impression I get is he's quite wary of all the talk of geneticists, he obviously mentions both Oppenheimer and later studies that propose that R1b (specifically M269) onwards is due to spread from Neolithic. He doesn't take a position instead makes the valid point that it's only with ancient DNA that we can get a better picture with regards to wether R1b was present etc. If you ask me that's reasonable enough he is an archaeologist after all.

The map used is the L21 one from the M269 study (M529). As he uses the proxy of Niall in the chapter he also has a simple tree which obviously doesn't include DF13, DF49 and DF23.

Anyways it was only a quick glance while I was on lunch break.

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Heber
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2013, 02:25:44 PM »

Paul,
Here is a series of excellent lectures from Mallory, Renfrew, Anthony and Meir (The Dream Team) on the Tarim Basin Mummies from the Penn Museum conference, "Secrets of the Silk Road".
They made clear their distrust of modern DNA analysis and recommend making more use of ancient DNA.
I believe Renfrew mentioned a 10 - 20 year timeframe before things became clear.
Interesting that some of the nearby mummies are dressed in high quality tartan clothing similar to Celtic Halstatt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0HCs6PVnzI&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NrLZ8CzRWk&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QapUGZ0ObjA&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY0acUCvZEs&sns=em



« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 07:26:51 AM by Heber » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2013, 09:23:10 PM »

Mallorys new book arrived in my post today. Will not have the time to read it until the weekend though.  Hardback of decent thickness. 
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eochaidh
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2013, 01:11:07 AM »

Mallorys new book arrived in my post today. Will not have the time to read it until the weekend though.  Hardback of decent thickness. 

Dear God in Heaven, man! Throw us a bone!
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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2013, 11:41:02 AM »

I'm predicting that they will determine that most of the male Irish lineage is L21.  Sorry, joke, couldn't help it.

I expect that's right, but it's what Mallory says about how it got to Ireland that interests me.

And what date it arrived there!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 11:43:09 AM by Bren123 » Logged

LDJ
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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2013, 11:47:23 AM »

I understand Jean M showed him her book.    

I also saw the genetic section of his forthcoming book on the Irish before final stage. Since he not a geneticist, of course he is reliant on what geneticists have published. It is no use expecting ancient DNA to be pulled out of the bag or any amazing new revelations. The impression I got though was of a highly readable presentation and his usual sceptical intelligence being brought to bear on all material. I expect this book to fly off the shelves.  

Do you have the ISBN number so I can try ordering the book?
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LDJ
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2013, 03:56:58 PM »

Do you have the ISBN number so I can try ordering the book?

ISBN-10: 0500051755
ISBN-13: 978-0500051757

You can order from Amazon. 
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Jean M
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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2013, 03:59:51 PM »

Here's the blurb from the publisher:

About eighty million people today can trace their descent back to the occupants of Ireland. But where did they come from – and what do we mean by ‘Irish’? The Origins of the Irish is the first major attempt for almost a century to deal with the core issues of how the Irish people came into being.

Written as an engrossing detective story and illustrated with informative drawings and maps, this is essential reading for anyone who is interested in Ireland and the Irish.

Scholars have puzzled over the riddle of Irish origins for over a thousand years, but without any clear resolution. The medieval Irish created an elaborate narrative of their origins that has haunted generations of archaeologists, linguists and even modern geneticists. This authoritative and brilliantly argued book emphasizes that the Irish did not have a single origin, but are a product of multiple influences that can only be tracked by employing archaeology, genetics, geology, linguistics and mythology.

Beginning with the geological collision that fused the two halves of Ireland, the author traces Ireland’s long journey to become an island. He examines the sources of Ireland’s earliest colonists and why they might have sought out one of the most impoverished places of Europe to settle.

The origins of the first farmers and their impact on the island are followed by an exploration of how metallurgists in copper, bronze and iron brought Ireland into wider orbits of European culture. Traditional explanations of Irish prehistory are assessed in the light of the very latest genetic research into the origins of the Irish. The author also tackles the vexed question of the Celts and the sources of the Irish language.

J. P. Mallory is a world expert on the interconnection of archaeology and linguistics and is the author of the standard work In Search of the Indo-Europeans and The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European. He has co-authored The Archaeology of Ulster and The Tarim Mummies and published numerous other works. He is Emeritus Professor of Prehistoric Archaeology at Queen’s University Belfast and a member of the Royal Irish Academy.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 04:00:15 PM by Jean M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2013, 04:41:57 PM »

...
I believe Renfrew mentioned a 10 - 20 year timeframe before things became clear.....
Is Colin Renfrew saying we won't know the answer for 10-20 years from today? umm, I wonder what he is basing that prognostication on?

When someone would preface an argument about the long-term, John Maynard Keynes, the famous economist, had this to say about the accuracy of forecasting, "In the long run we are all dead."
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 04:46:13 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2013, 06:10:06 PM »

I received my copy today. Here is the structure and my initial notes on the DNA chapter 8.
I use ISOGG naming shorthand for haplogroups. There are 320 pages with 122 illustrations.
The writing is clear and humorous. A great read. I will give a more detailed analysis when I complete all chapters.

Origins of the Irish.   J.P.Malory.

Contents

Preface
Introduction
   Ireland and its counties.

The Origins of Ireland
First Colonists
First Farmers
Beaker and Metal
The Rise of the Warriors
The Iron Age
The Native Version
Skulls, Blood and Genes
European population tree according to (blood group) markers
(Scottish and Irish Cluster)
(English, Dane, Dutch Cluster)
People's of Europe according to principal component analysis (blood group)
(Irish and Basque on the periphery. East / West Cline).
(Type O common in Ireland, Scotland, Iberia)
Map of the first principal component across Europe.
Gradient running from Near East to the Atlantic Periphery.
Patterns of the phenylketonuria (PKU) mutations and their possible spread to Ireland and Britain.
Table 8.1 mtDNA of Modern Irish Population
H 39%
U 13%
K 11%
J 10%
V 4%
T 2%
X 2%
Table 8.2 Subgroups of mtDNA haplogroup H
H1, H3, H4, H5a, H6, H7, H13
Table 8.3 mtDNA haplogroups of Ireland
Haplogroup.  Home             In Ireland (KYA)
U                   Greece.          7.3
X.                  Caucasus       5.5
H.                  S. France       5.5
V.                   N. Iberia.        5.5
T.                   N. Italy.           5.5
K.                  N. Italy            5.5
J.                   Near East       4.0
Table 8.4 genetic composition of modern Irish according to mtDNA haplogroups
Pre-farming
D, H, HV, I, K, T, T2, T4, U, U2, U4, U5, U5a, U5a1, U5b, V, W, X
Farming
J, J1a, J1b, J2, T1, U3
8.5 The proposed migration of R1b-14 ("Rory") from Iberia to Ireland.
Shows a clear migration route along the Atllantic facade from Iberia to Ireland
Table 8.5 Major Y chromosome halpogroups in Ireland
Pre-farming
R1a, R1a1, R1b3, IJK, PN3, N3, I1a, I1b2, I1c
Farming
E3b, G, J
Table 8.6 Distribution of Y chromosome haplogroup R1b among populations in Ireland. Irish surnames were compared to non Irish surnames.
Source.         %R1b
Connacht.         98
Munster.            95
Ulster.                81
Leinster.            73
English.             63
Scottish.            53
Norman/Norse. 83      
The Irish modal haplogroup (M222) and its ancestors
Shown the haplogroup tree from M269 > L11 > U106, P312 > L21, U152 > M222
M222 accounts for about 5% of Irishmen
Distribution of L21 (M529)
Map with peak in Ireland and distribution along the Atlantic Facade
The Evidence of Language
The Origins of the Irish

       Notes
       Bibliography
       Source of Illustrations
       Index
       320 pages including Index.
       122 illustrations
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 06:20:16 PM by Heber » Logged

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Heber
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« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2013, 06:17:23 PM »

...
I believe Renfrew mentioned a 10 - 20 year timeframe before things became clear.....
Is Colin Renfrew saying we won't know the answer for 10-20 years from today? umm, I wonder what he is basing that prognostication on?

When someone would preface an argument about the long-term, John Maynard Keynes, the famous economist, had this to say about the accuracy of forecasting, "In the long run we are all dead."

Mike,

If you look through the YouTube videos from the "Mysteries of the Silk Road" conference, Mallory jokes that we will be all dead before the matter is resolved. I believe that Renfrew was referring to the time required to get a sufficiently large data base of ancient DNA. Given the geological timeframe it takes to get results back from Geno 2.0 (Ordered July 2012, still on 40%) from modern samples, I dont think he is exaggerating.:).
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 06:19:31 PM by Heber » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2013, 07:19:19 PM »

. . .
8.5 The proposed migration of R1b-14 ("Rory") from Iberia to Ireland.
Shows a clear migration route along the Atllantic facade from Iberia to Ireland
Table 8.5 Major Y chromosome halpogroups in Ireland
Pre-farming
R1a, R1a1, R1b3, IJK, PN3, N3, I1a, I1b2, I1c

Farming
E3b, G, J
. . .


(The bolding is mine, for emphasis.)

Oh, crud. If that is an accurate representation of some of the y-dna info in Mallory's book, then it's out of date already and maybe not worth buying. Obviously even the names of the y haplogroups are outdated.

What is discouraging to me is the whole "Pre-farming", out-of-Iberia schlock. That is "The Thing That Will Not Die" (although many of us wish it would).

What the hell is R1b-14 ("Rory")?

Aaahhhrrrggghhh!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 07:28:05 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2013, 07:25:41 PM »

. . .
8.5 The proposed migration of R1b-14 ("Rory") from Iberia to Ireland.
Shows a clear migration route along the Atllantic facade from Iberia to Ireland
Table 8.5 Major Y chromosome halpogroups in Ireland
Pre-farming
R1a, R1a1, R1b3, IJK, PN3, N3, I1a, I1b2, I1c

Farming
E3b, G, J
. . .


(The bolding is mine, for emphasis.)

Oh, crud. If that is an accurate representation of some of the y-dna info in Mallory's book, then it's out of date already and maybe not worth buying. Obviously even the names of the y haplogroups are outdated.

What is discouraging to me is the whole "Pre-farming", out-of-Iberia schlock. That is "the Thing that will not die" (although many of us wish it would).

What the hell is R1b-14 ("Rory")?

Aaahhhrrrggghhh!


Okay. I answered my own question about R1b-14 ("Rory") by dusting off my copy of Oppenheimer's The Origins of the British. "Rory" is one of his six-marker clusters.

Well, nothing to see here. Best to move along. :-(
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 07:26:24 PM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
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« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2013, 07:56:47 PM »

R1b-14 Rory?! What a stunning disappointment. How could an "expert" be seven years behind? This just doesn't seem possible. I'm absolutely bewildered!
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« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2013, 08:37:02 PM »

Mallory does not defend the Oppenheimer dates 15,760 with standard deviation 8,440 which is too early for settlement in Ireland. He goes on to discuss other studies (2010) with dates from 4577 - 9063. He then mentions a later study (Busby?) which discounts the more recent dates.

"Recognising that dating of Y Chrosomone lineages is notoriously controversial, the authors of the article would not hazard a date for M269 other than suspecting that the more recent (Neolithic) dates cited in some recent papers are likely to be too recent."
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« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2013, 10:39:57 PM »

R1b-14 Rory?! What a stunning disappointment. How could an "expert" be seven years behind? This just doesn't seem possible. I'm absolutely bewildered!

Maybe if we all write to him on that score he may get the message!

 j.mallory@qub.ac.uk
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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2013, 04:33:15 AM »

Origins of the Irish: Two Scenarios

"There are two sets of contradictory conclusions to this chapter:

Conclusion 1

1.   The principal genetic basis of the Irish population derives from male and female lineages who entered Europe during and after the last Ice Age. These populations branched into different subgroups  while isolated in the different refuges  and then moved northward when the ice sheets melted.
2.   Southern france or northern Iberia.
3.   A minority of Irish carry a legacy derived from the spread of the first farmers from the Near East. It is probable that at this time the gene for lactose pesistance was also introduced.
4.   Most surveys of Irelands genetic profile fail to find any significant evidence of migrations after the Neolithic.
5.   The denial of any further population incursions on the basis of modern genetics is unsafe if we follow results of Hungarian DNA that reveal that reveal that the genetics of the modern population may fail to reflect the actual history of the region.

Conclusion 2

1.   The principal genetic basis of the Irish population derives from male and female lineages who entered Europe after the last Ice Age, possibly with the advance of farming from the Near East.
2.   There are some traces of population continuity from earlier populations who had been resident in Europe before the end of the last Ice Age, eg. mtDNA U5.
3.   The major male genetic line associated with Ireland (Y R1b) may have entered from the Neolithic perion onward.
4.   The evidence of current Irish population genetics can neither confirm nor deny the possibility of later gene flow into Ireland during the Bronze and Iron Ages.
The extension of ancient DNA testing to the prehistoric population of Ireland should help decide which (if any) of the above models is valid."
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2013, 05:06:38 AM »

As Heber mentions he also points out Busby study, my opinion from quick glance at the chapter is he's just putting both ideas out there, he's not agreeing with either but saying this is some of the current published research. One thing he mentions over and over again is the need for "ancient DNA"

End of the day he's an archaeologist and he seems quite skeptical about all the talk of geneticists.

The bulk of the book of course is about the different archaelogical periods as well as throwing in a chapter about the general "pseudo-history" as drafted up during the 7th-8th century by the Irish "literati"

-Paul
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2013, 02:27:57 PM »

...
I believe Renfrew mentioned a 10 - 20 year timeframe before things became clear.....
Is Colin Renfrew saying we won't know the answer for 10-20 years from today? umm, I wonder what he is basing that prognostication on?

When someone would preface an argument about the long-term, John Maynard Keynes, the famous economist, had this to say about the accuracy of forecasting, "In the long run we are all dead."

Mike,

If you look through the YouTube videos from the "Mysteries of the Silk Road" conference, Mallory jokes that we will be all dead before the matter is resolved. I believe that Renfrew was referring to the time required to get a sufficiently large data base of ancient DNA. Given the geological timeframe it takes to get results back from Geno 2.0 (Ordered July 2012, still on 40%) from modern samples, I dont think he is exaggerating.:).

If it was joking, as you say about Mallory, that's just in good fun.

What I was worried about is if Renfrew is serious. If so, he is essentially punting to the next generation. If so, the implication is he knows he can't win the argument with the evidence today so he has no choice.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 02:31:16 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Jean M
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« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2013, 07:26:20 AM »

Just finished it last night. I was gripped. There are some fascinating insights in there. (And I forgive him for spelling my name wrongly. Happens all the time.) 

I knew from a talk he gave at Oxford that he feels Bell Beaker is too early for the spread of Celtic, but I'm sticking to my guns.
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« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2013, 11:14:08 AM »

Just finished it last night. I was gripped. There are some fascinating insights in there. (And I forgive him for spelling my name wrongly. Happens all the time.) 

I knew from a talk he gave at Oxford that he feels Bell Beaker is too early for the spread of Celtic, but I'm sticking to my guns.

I've ordered it. Should be a good read.

When is your own book due to be released?
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Jean M
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« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2013, 12:59:28 PM »

This September.
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« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2013, 04:25:20 PM »

This September.

Congratulations, both on your publishing date and on being cited by Mallory.

I see he must frequent Belfast, but is a native Californian. There is a back migration for you!
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« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2013, 04:48:11 PM »

Quote from: Mikewww
I see he must frequent Belfast, but is a native Californian. There is a back migration for you!

Yes. He's Anglo-Norman-Irish-American.
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« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2013, 04:56:18 PM »

Quote from: Mikewww
Congratulations on being cited by Mallory.

I'm not cited by him. He just threw a credit to me into the acknowledgements as I passed on a few handy papers by other authors. Undeserved really. I owe much, much more to him.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 04:59:04 PM by Jean M » Logged
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