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Author Topic: Ashkenazi P312  (Read 817 times)
planlorr
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« on: January 08, 2013, 10:15:09 PM »

I am R1b1a2a1a1b P312 with DF27+ and Z196- and most closely match a small group of somewhat geographically diverse ashkenazi/east europeans.   This "jewish R1b"differs greatly from other ashkenazi types. It is very R1b, but differs from several R1b modals in this way.

19=13
385a = 12
389-1 = 12
389 -2 = 28
459b = 9
570 = 16
395s1a = 16

I've created a modal on Y-search named Ashkenazi P312 modal? with user id: QUYAF based on these matches.  The modal then compared against several R1b modals at 67 markers and find genetic distance of 13 to 15:

R1b-P312 (S116)   13
R1b-U152 (S28)   14
R1b-DF27         15
R1b-L21 (S145)   15

What does this grouping of ashkenazi P312 being so close to the R1B modals indicate? Perhaps a british mercenary fathering a child in a jewish community in the Rhine Valley 500 years ago? 

I'm no expert at this, so please advise if the above analysis is not quite right, or if there are suggestions for further testing.


Shea Shalom Lorberfeld
R1b1a2a1a1b     P312+ DF27+ Z196- U198- U152- P314.2- M65- M160- M153- M126- L96- L48- L4- L226- L21- L2- L196- L193- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L144-
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A_Wode
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2013, 11:47:04 PM »

If through conversion, Spain is more likely.

From Myres et al 2011

Jordan: Dead Sea and Amman

P312* 2/146 samples
U152* 1/146 samples
L23* 2/146 samples
M269* 1/146 samples
V88 20/146 samples

Western influence is likely non-existant if ever in recent history, and even in the event that some individuals *could* have a western paternal ancestor, the likelihood of this happening among a random sample of 146 people is tiny.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/
Table S4
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 12:27:28 AM by A_Wode » Logged
seferhabahir
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2013, 03:58:18 AM »

I am R1b1a2a1a1b P312 with DF27+ and Z196- and most closely match a small group of somewhat geographically diverse ashkenazi/east europeans.   This "jewish R1b"differs greatly from other ashkenazi types. It is very R1b, but differs from several R1b modals ...

Your situation is not uncommon. I now belong to three "closely matching" small groups of geographically diverse Ashkenazi Eastern Europeans. One group is in R1b-DF13 (my Y-DNA), a second group is in J2a-M410 (my mother's father's Y-DNA), and a third group is in R2a-M124 (my father's father's mother's father's Y-DNA). All three of these groups have about 20 people in them and are distinct enough to stand out from other clusters in their respective R1b, J2a, and R2a haplotrees. The surnames in these clusters are almost uniformly Ashkenazi.

If I run some rudimentary tests on the members of these clusters, all three end up looking as if most members appear to descend from a common ancestor 600-700 years ago. That lines up with the decimation of Europe due to the plague and probably resulted in a bottleneck for these Jewish clusters, as has been pointed out by Klyosov and others. It isn't necessarily going to be from a single male conversion event, although this might be more likely with R1b than with J2a or R2a.
 
Six or seven hundred years or more of endogamous living is likely to make today's descendants of whoever it was back then who might have been the founder of the cluster look decidedly different (or at least easily discernible) from other clusters. I'm just learning as I go, but the more I test various branches of my family, the more the story seems to stay the same. I have no doubt if I test yet another 3rd or 4th cousin, I'll find yet one more 20 or 30 member Ashkenazi cluster in whatever haplotree he ends up in.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 04:03:42 AM by seferhabahir » Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

MostDK
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2013, 11:46:03 AM »

Yes, it's certainly a possibility because in the Thirty Years' War the swedes used many mercenaries from the British Isles (Wild Gees). It is known that in nowadays Poland some of these soldiers deserted in favor of the Catholic army, etc.
Just as in Denmark and Sweden, there was probably some of those soldiers who settled in Poland.

Another possibility could be a dutch merchant who settled on the Baltic coast, etc.
And from where was he originally?

Biggest opportunity, I think,  is probably jewish escape 1192-1492 from western Europe, especially Spain 1391 or 1492.
If you look at pictures showing the Sephardic jews, you will see many of them shown blond. Judaism is not an exclusive religion, and I expect therefore that most of Western Europe's population probably also includes jewish ancestors, in particular from the first millennium AD.
So, some R1b joined the judaism, and some left it again ...

Regards, Morten
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 12:05:26 PM by MostDK » Logged

R1b>L21>DF13>CTS4466/CTS5714/CTS3974
U5a1a2b*
seferhabahir
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2013, 12:52:37 PM »

I expect therefore that most of Western Europe's population probably also includes jewish ancestors, in particular from the first millennium AD. So, some R1b joined the judaism, and some left it again ...

I think Wild Geese and Hanseatic League theories have already been discussed, either here or maybe on the Yahoo board. Anyway, I always come back to the same question. If a "recent" conversion event resulted in one of these close-knit Jewish clusters, how come we never see any non-Jewish descendants in these kinds of clusters. Surely, a convert must have had some non-Jewish ancestors that might have left some haplotype trace somewhere. They just don't appear, possibly because they all daughtered out. But I'd put more faith in an older conversion event, say during the Roman Empire as you suggest, when we know many folks did so because there was not much of a stigma attached to joining the tribe.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 12:55:34 PM by seferhabahir » Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

MostDK
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2013, 02:03:53 PM »

Thanks Seferhabahir,

Yes, you're right, I mean up to the stigma seriously started about 1000 AD.

Regards, Morten
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R1b>L21>DF13>CTS4466/CTS5714/CTS3974
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A_Wode
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2013, 09:00:12 PM »

If I run some rudimentary tests on the members of these clusters, all three end up looking as if most members appear to descend from a common ancestor 600-700 years ago. That lines up with the decimation of Europe due to the plague and probably resulted in a bottleneck for these Jewish clusters, as has been pointed out by Klyosov and others. It isn't necessarily going to be from a single male conversion event, although this might be more likely with R1b than with J2a or R2a.

I disagree with your last statement, mostly because R2a is almost completely a Central Asian/South Asian/Eastern Caucasus/Iran haplogroup. It's far less likely than R1b that this haplogroup was present in the Levant 3000 years ago.

I haven't investigated the haplotypes thoroughly but 4 diaspora L21+ Jews descend from this man. You can find his descendants in several projects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kimhi

L21+ is more common in northern Spain than in the south. If the event of large conversions I would examine southern France and/or northern Spain. That said, along with my previous post, I don't see R1b more likely to be converts than J2a or J1e even.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 12:27:17 AM »

I disagree with your last statement, mostly because R2a is almost completely a Central Asian/South Asian/Eastern Caucasus/Iran haplogroup. It's far less likely than R1b that this haplogroup was present in the Levant 3000 years ago. I haven't investigated the haplotypes thoroughly but 4 diaspora L21+ Jews descend from this man. You can find his descendants in several projects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kimhi

I looked into the Joseph Kimhi L21 thing awhile ago. Initially, Matisyahu Gross posted an article (link is below) about four purported descendants of Joseph Kimhi all being in the same haplogroup, but this has since been shown to be incorrect.

www.jewishdnaproject.com/Genology.pdf

149534 Camhi R1b1a2a1a1b4 (L21+)
149541 Kimchi R1b1a2a1a1b4 (L21+)
  
149540 Kamhi R1b1a2 (L21-)
153485 Chimichi R1b1a2 (L21-)

These are all listed in the G2b-M377 FTDNA project (and other places as well) and all list Joseph Kimhi as their MDKA. Shows the danger of making assumptions based on only 12 STR markers and not so solid paper trails. I will note that Camhi and Kimchi who indeed are L21+ both have DYS439=11, one of the off-modal markers for the 1111EE Ashkenazi cluster. They do not have DYS388=11.

And I will sort of agree with you about R1b, since I've not yet been convinced that the 1111EE cluster is the result of a conversion event. It would seem more likely based on the STRs that the Camhi and Kimchi L21+ might be from a conversion since their STR markers look a lot more like the L21 modal than does 1111EE. I won't go into the R2a concerns since this is really the R1b and Subclades forum.


« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 12:34:23 AM by seferhabahir » Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

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