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Author Topic: Sardinia and haplogroup R  (Read 1633 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: January 13, 2013, 06:33:36 AM »

ISOGG 2013 of hg. R demonstrates some things. The new Sardinian SNPs (PF) have been put in the tree. What are they demonstrating?

Amongst the 10000  Sardinians tested we have:

R
R1
R1a
R1a1
R1a1a
R1a1a1 (L664) haven’t a Sardinian SNP in the tree, but it exists: PF4279
R1a1a1b1
R1a1a1b1a1 (M458) but it seems no subclades
Not R1a1a1b1a2 (Z280)
Not R1a1a1b1a3 (Z284)
Not R1a1a1b2 (Z93)

R1b
R1b1
R1b1a
Not R1b1a1 (M73)
R1b1a2
R1b1a2a  (L23)
R1b1a2a1 (L150)
R1b1a2a1a (L51)
R1b1a1a1a1 (L11)
R1b1a2a1a1a1b2 (U152)
We know that Sardinia has also DF192, DF194
R1b1a2a1a1a1b2c (Z56)
R1b1a2a1a1a1b2c3 (Z145, Z146, not documented Z144)

R1b1c (V88)
Not documented R-M18, which is probably born in Sardinia, but this demonstrates that its ancestor there is, as I have always presupposed.

R2 (M479)
R2a but not the subclades.

Even though without single cases tested we don’t know whether these SNPs are the terminal or not for each subclades, we can say that Sardinia probably has the most ancient haplotypes of the whole haplogroup R., also of R2, which is diffused above all in South Asia, but of course we don’t know where was born tens of thousands of years ago.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 06:38:37 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

seferhabahir
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« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 12:32:50 PM »


R2 (M479)
R2a but not the subclades.

Even though without single cases tested we don’t know whether these SNPs are the terminal or not for each subclades, we can say that Sardinia probably has the most ancient haplotypes of the whole haplogroup R., also of R2, which is diffused above all in South Asia, but of course we don’t know where was born tens of thousands of years ago.


Well, can't this be partly explained by Jews exiled from Rome to Sardinia? According to Wikipedia, the first recorded mention of Jews in Sardinia occurred in the year 19 CE, during the reign of Roman emperor Tiberius. 4000 Jews were exiled from Rome to Sardinia. Some stayed for the duration (leading a quiet provincial life until maybe they converted to Christianity when it became the state religion, according to the Wikipedia entry), and then ending up in the PF-series test pool. Others (non-converted) left for friendlier places and then ended up where Ashkenazi Jewish R2 is found today (like my R2 great-great-grandfather in the Ukraine).

My great-great-grandfather's descendant (a cousin) has at least five new PF-series R2 SNPs not yet listed in the ISOGG tree (as well as his 29 new F-Series R2 SNPs). They may or may not define new R2 subclades. The PF SNPs are consistent with Sardinian being designated one of my two Geno 2.0 reference populations (Iranian being the other). Neither is particularly close, but apparently closer than any of the other autosomal reference populations currently in use by Nat Geo.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 02:47:51 PM by seferhabahir » Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

seferhabahir
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« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 01:31:48 PM »

Or maybe some of the R1 and R2 came to Sardinia by way of visiting and colonizing Phoenicians and their families between 1000 and 500 BCE. But I'd have to go look for some references to see if there are any conjectures about R2 being amongst possible Phoenician haplotypes.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2013, 05:16:39 PM »

There are archaeological sites on Sardinia with Phoenician Jewish temples.  These people were totally a mixed bunch!  I don't think we can separate the Phoenicians from the Greek however because they were very intimately combined in their trading routes and stops around the Mediterranean. 

In the Greek project there are numerous R1b but only one R2.

By the way does anyone know the dates of Z49 and Z142?
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R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 04:52:36 AM »


Well, can't this be partly explained by Jews exiled from Rome to Sardinia? According to Wikipedia, the first recorded mention of Jews in Sardinia occurred in the year 19 CE, during the reign of Roman emperor Tiberius. 4000 Jews were exiled from Rome to Sardinia. Some stayed for the duration (leading a quiet provincial life until maybe they converted to Christianity when it became the state religion, according to the Wikipedia entry), and then ending up in the PF-series test pool. Others (non-converted) left for friendlier places and then ended up where Ashkenazi Jewish R2 is found today (like my R2 great-great-grandfather in the Ukraine).

My great-great-grandfather's descendant (a cousin) has at least five new PF-series R2 SNPs not yet listed in the ISOGG tree (as well as his 29 new F-Series R2 SNPs). They may or may not define new R2 subclades. The PF SNPs are consistent with Sardinian being designated one of my two Geno 2.0 reference populations (Iranian being the other). Neither is particularly close, but apparently closer than any of the other autosomal reference populations currently in use by Nat Geo.


I am at my school now and have many problems, but, by watching at the Jewish R2 in the “R2 FTDNA Project”, as usual they belong to the same haplotype and presuppose a unique ancestor a few hundreds of years ago. Why? To say that the Sardinian R2-s descend from these Jews, we should have their haplotype and compare them. Anyway also the Italian Donofrio, who is R2a1* (L295*), has a haplotype very different from the Asians linked to him, and this demonstrates that also if his origin is from there, it happened many hundreds or thousands of years ago. Sardinians belong to the ancestral haplotypes of R2a1*.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

seferhabahir
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 01:07:13 PM »


I am at my school now and have many problems, but, by watching at the Jewish R2 in the “R2 FTDNA Project”, as usual they belong to the same haplotype and presuppose a unique ancestor a few hundreds of years ago. Why? To say that the Sardinian R2-s descend from these Jews, we should have their haplotype and compare them. Anyway also the Italian Donofrio, who is R2a1* (L295*), has a haplotype very different from the Asians linked to him, and this demonstrates that also if his origin is from there, it happened many hundreds or thousands of years ago. Sardinians belong to the ancestral haplotypes of R2a1*.


I will need to do an STR test on my cousin's markers soon. I do know that he is L295- (so is not part of R2a1*) and also L288- (so "probably" not part of the much smaller Romanian Jewish cluster which is far removed from the larger Eastern European Jewish cluster. Maybe the new R2 SNPs will clarify things. I know at least 15 R2 people have done Geno 2.0.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

seferhabahir
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 11:05:48 PM »

I guess I should apologize that I keep posting things about R2 on this forum, but I just can't get any traction anywhere else, even on the forum that was set up years ago and dedicated to only discussing R2. It's as if all the people who used to talk about R2 dried up and blew away.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

rms2
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2013, 04:58:28 AM »

I guess I should apologize that I keep posting things about R2 on this forum, but I just can't get any traction anywhere else, even on the forum that was set up years ago and dedicated to only discussing R2. It's as if all the people who used to talk about R2 dried up and blew away.

I personally don't mind. We should be able to discuss R2 here. I don't think anyone objects.
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