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Craig Gaston
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« on: January 17, 2009, 10:18:33 PM »

FTDNA says there are over 60,000 37-marker records in their database and a large portion of them are likely to be in R1b1b2. I wonder if anyone has thought of doing a meta-analysis of them to determine how the surnames are related? I don't know exactly how this would be done but the first step might be to reduce the 60K records to relatively homogenous lineages within each surname. For example, you would have Smith1, Smith2, etc. One could exclude all lineages with less than a certain number of members and then calculate the modal halotypes for the remainder. The analysis could then be done on these haplotypes. I am sort of expecting that this might yield a chronological ordering of the surnames according to their distance from our patriarch who waited out the last ice age in southern France. One would have to play a bit with the paramters for homogeneity and minimum lineage size, of course. Has anything like this been done already?
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Sean Murphy
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2009, 10:53:22 AM »

That would be a great idea, but, perhaps it would be easier and faster if a group of members here split the work up so one person would net get stuck toiling for hours on the project -- better yet -- how about ten, twenty, thirty, or how-ever-many-we-can-get people splitting the work up into small portions and we would get it done in no time ?

I for one would like to see my surname (Murphy), the most common surname in Ireland, broke down into the various haplotypes and other data sets --- but the task would be more than I could do alone.

Murph_
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Craig Gaston
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2009, 02:02:13 PM »

I was hoping that the FTDNA statisticians might be able do this mechanically, without having to look at the individual records. Indeed, it would be a huge project if one had to do it by hand. There are statistical techniques, such as principal components, that could extract a number of subgroups for each surname depending on the correlations between the individual haplotypes.

I was thinking a bit more about what it might tell us. What we would like to know is the closeness other surnames to our own. We get a glimpse of this now when we look at the Y-DNA Matches page, but this can be misleading because individuals vary quite a bit from their lineage halpotype. In what I am proposing, we would comparing the distance between the modal haplotypes of each lineage. FTDNA might develop a tool like their FTDNATIP, that anyone could use. It would be useful to be able to supply a parameter to determine the minimum number of individuals in each lineage that is selected for analysis.

So, for the Murphy name there are probably multiple lineages that would come out of this, as they probably are already in your Results page. These would be compared to the modal haplotypes of other surnames and ranked accordingly.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2009, 03:23:09 PM »

The idea that our common R1b1b2 ancestor waited out the last Ice Age in southern France or in Iberia is pretty much obsolete.

R1 (M173) itself, the ancestor of R1b1b2 (M269), is only about 18,500 years old.

R1b1b2 (M269) isn't old enough to have been in existence during the last Ice Age. It most likely arrived in Europe from western or southwestern Asia sometime well after the last Ice Age, probably during the Neolithic Period.
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Craig Gaston
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2009, 05:09:11 PM »

I was only joking about our R1b1b2 ancestor waiting out the ice age :-). In any case, my further thinking (see reply to Mr. Murphy) is more about computing genetic distances between modal haplotypes of surname lineages. This has the benefit of filtering out a lot of noise. If we can draw on the 60k plus records in the database, this could be quite interesting.

Craig
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Terry Barton
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2009, 11:55:28 AM »

Craig and I were discussing this concept offline and I created a quick cut at what I could imagine.  It follows somewhat along the lines of Murph's comments.  Take a look at this page to see if you can imagine this going anywhere. 

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/r1b1b2/results

I would imagine there might be a separate compilation for each Deep Clade.  Not sure about the best way to present it - but if 60,000+ results represented "only" 6,000 Genetic Lineages - that would still be an absurd number of results to compile into one table. 

However - if there are "only" 100 or 200 Genetic Families in my Deep Clade (R1b1b2a1b7c), I can imagine compiling them into one table and seeing how they compare to each other - now.  And - following up, as time passes and we get even deeper into the Clades as we have even more relevant SNPs.

My hope is to someday track the Deep Clade divisions right into our family Lineage and then see a SNP that correlates to our main branch at CDY.   (We have over 70 men in our large Barton Lineage I)

Murph - take a look at what I've done with Barton Project and see if that is what you are wishing for Murphy.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/barton/results

Terry
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dasmurphy@hotmail.com
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2013, 06:25:13 AM »

I'm new to DNA analysis but would like to connect with County Wexford (Ireland) MURPHYs.  My Genetree DNA results are:
Email dasmurphy@hotmail.com
Lab standard NIST
Haplogroup R-M207
Sub Haplogroup R1b1b2-M269
Confidence high

Marker Name Value
DYS 385a       11
DYS 385b       14
DYS 388         12
DYS 389I        13
DYS 389B        29
DYS 390          24
DYS 391          11
DYS 392          13
DYS 393          12
DYS 394a        14
 -
DYS 426          12
DYS 437          15
DYS 438          12
DYS 439          12
DYS 441          14
DYS 442          18
DYS 444          12
DYS 445          12
DYS 446          13
DYS 447          25
DYS 448          19
DYS 449          30
DYS 452          30
DYS 454          11
DYS 455          11
DYS 456          16
DYS 458          20
DYS 459a         9
DYS 459b        10
DYS 460          11
DYS 461          12
DYS 462          11
DYS 463          24
DYS 464a        15
DYS 464b        15
DYS 464c        16
DYS 464d        16
 -
 -
GATAH4.1        12
GGAAA1B07     10
YCAIIa             19
YCAIIb             23
YGATAA10        15
YGATAC4          23

Is someone able to assist/guide me please?

Daryl Francis MURPHY
Brisbane, QLD, Australia
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gtc
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2013, 09:46:22 AM »


<snip>

Is someone able to assist/guide me please?

Daryl Francis MURPHY
Brisbane, QLD, Australia

If you haven't already, create a new user Ysearch account and enter your marker values. Then do a search and see if you get any matches.

http://www.ysearch.org/

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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2013, 09:55:23 AM »

If you haven't already, create a new user Ysearch account and enter your marker values. Then do a search and see if you get any matches.
http://www.ysearch.org/

But before you should convert the Lab standard NIST in FTDNA values.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2013, 10:06:25 AM »

@Daryl

You should see if you can transfer your results over to Family Tree DNA. You're going to have to go over to them eventually if you want to make any progress in your genetic genealogy quest.

FTDNA has a Murphy Family DNA Project that you will need to be a part of, for one thing:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MURPHY%20DNA-All%20Spellings/default.aspx?section=yresults

And the chances are better than good that you are L21+, for another:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?section=yresults

We already have seven Murphys in the R-L21 Plus Project, and R-L21 is by far the most common y haplogroup in Ireland and the British Isles.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 10:06:58 AM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 11:37:51 AM »

I suspect I belong to this same Murphy line. See "Haplotype C" in the Murphy Project.
Mark Jost was kind enough to compare the numbers on this group. I hope Mark doesn't mind me quoting our conversation.


Mark:"Ok, I ran a quick fluxus on you and Murphy Grp C and calculated the TMRCA estimate from my spreadsheet for you. If you notice you are in the left branch of the Fluxus phylogram (kit N12172). I did not run a GD but are these four or so guys you figured you were closest to?
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNMFlHMmZvVXFXSkU/edit?pli=1

Mark:"Your group have a 37 marker IntraClade Coalescence (n-1) Age  of 915 ybp (the beginning point in generations each have the same common ancestry).

The Modal Age is the point at the first beginning of this common ancestor based on the  ancestral haplotype is about 1,197.5 YBP . This could be in the same or just prior  generation. The main point is that you all are common ancestors at around 1,000 years before present considering the average birth years of  your four. ie 30 year average length per generation. 67 markers might produce a little younger age.

MJost

Murphy Project (Haplotype C)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MURPHY%20DNA-All%20Spellings/default.aspx?section=yresults
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 11:39:33 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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