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Author Topic: Convince me: What is the value of 111 markers?  (Read 3804 times)
rms2
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« on: December 29, 2012, 08:39:36 PM »

Okay, before the big holiday sale ends on Monday at midnight Houston, Texas, time (2300 my time), tell me why I should order the upgrade from 67 to 111 markers.

I've had 67 markers since - when? - 2006 or 2007, I think. I'm glad I went to 67 when I did, because it's made a big difference.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 08:41:10 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 09:03:21 PM »

Okay. I don't really have time right now, but I'll get started.

You'll get better matches at 111 markers than at 67 or 37.  We should probably ignore 12 and 25 other than to find other people to recruit to upgrade.

Not only will you get better matches, you may get more.

I have only one match at 37 and he doesn't appear to have the right surname and geographic origin to mean too much, but on the other hand, you never know.  This match ddn't appear at 12 and 25.

At 67, I have additional matches and found a commonality in geographic origin that it turns out, make sense. There is one surname variant (of mine) that appeared in my match list at 67 that wasn't there before. He was not might best match.

At 111, the surname variant is my best match. We were GD=6 at 67 and we were still GD=6 at 111. That's quite a difference, but we were 44/44 (GD=0) on markers 68-111.

The sequence of FTDNA markers may not match what is most important for your lineage. You may have a recent mutation or two throwing things off.  The more markers you test, the better chance you have of seeing the full and true pattern. As Nordtvedt says about TMRCA estimates - more STRs are better. Every STR is an individual experiment.

That's the other thing to consider. TMRCA estimates will be more accurate at 111 markers. The markers FTDNA selected above 67 are not multi-copy so they are good for linear correlation with time/generations.

It's a chicken and egg thing. Someone has to go first. We don't know what we don't know, but someone has to go first or we won't get anywhere.

Since there is a sale, you can use my wife's rationale. You are actually saving money. Buy now to save.
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razyn
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« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 11:06:12 PM »

Okay, before the big holiday sale ends on Monday at midnight Houston, Texas, time (2300 my time), tell me why I should order the upgrade from 67 to 111 markers.

For myopic, navel-gazing genealogy of the latest ten or twenty generations of your immediate paternal family, you don't need it.  But if you care to put on your driving glasses and read the exit signs farther down the road, the interesting question is not who matches you most perfectly on a few markers? (ans: your dad or brother); but rather, with whom (inside your major haplogroup, say R1b-P312) do you share a bunch of unusual, off-modal values?  Those are the guys with whom you share a deeper history.  Clan na Rory, Clan of the Cave Bear, or some other clans one might imagine.  Folks who share your terminal SNP will look more like you, at 111 markers, than they look like the rest of the population of... Ireland, or whatever European place waved goodbye to your bunch.

And the picture of that will be much more apparent if you join your haplogroup project, look at colorized STR results, and test 111 markers.  It is of course one of those things, like paying one's taxes, that would work better for everyone concerned if more people were willing to do it.

Incidentally, Henry has very recently re-shuffled the said STR results, in the big "R1b-P312 and Subclades" project.  Many of us are not in the same "group" there that we were in a month ago.  We may be clustered with the same peers, but the subgroup identification system (by upper and lower case letters) is completely different.  For example, I used to be in group Pabd, but all of a sudden I find that I'm a Jda.  Oddly enough, that seems to me to make sense.  But it's very different:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?vgroup=atlantic-r1b1c%C2%A7ion=ycolorized
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 02:08:02 AM »


Here is a quote from Alex Williamson on the L21 Yahoo Group today:
Quote
Hi Paul,

That's a great example you've brought up. This is a problem with convergence. It just happens that the haplotype for these Clan Colla men is very close to the haplotype for Shepherd (207060) which is close to the other DF41+ men. To answer your question, yes, testing for DF21 or DF41 would resolve this for future 67-marker trees.

Another solution, would be just not to use 67-marker trees. Both Shepherd (207060) and McQuillan (82960) have already upgraded to 111-markers. Although the two are close matches at 67-markers, they are light-years apart at 111-markers. They'll never appear together on 111-marker trees. Upgrading to 111-markers greatly reduces the chance of two men accidentally matching, when they're really not that closely related. This is just one of the reasons I will be updating my 111-marker trees more than my 67-marker trees. They're just more reliable.

More markers means better, more accurate comparisons, including the reduction of false matches from convergence.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2012, 02:17:23 AM »

Also with the extended panel (68-111) the confidence increases significantly when time is calculated. A rather fine precision is offered by using 100 markers and at 111, the cream raises to the top.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
gtc
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2012, 05:49:54 AM »

In my own case, it wasn't until a bunch of us in our surname project went out to 111 markers that we discovered we have (so far) unique values for two of those markers which cluster us under Z12.
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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Arch Y.
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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2012, 05:55:34 AM »

Okay, before the big holiday sale ends on Monday at midnight Houston, Texas, time (2300 my time), tell me why I should order the upgrade from 67 to 111 markers.

I've had 67 markers since - when? - 2006 or 2007, I think. I'm glad I went to 67 when I did, because it's made a big difference.

I am in a dilemma. I have tested for several additional markers and have no idea what additional markers well beyond 67 markers (97 I think). I don't know if I'll be paying double for markers that I've tested for already if I go for the 111 marker upgrade. Also, the Gene2.0 chip is another one I've pondered since I have some Christmas cash burning a hole in my pocket right now. Geez I thought I was done with all the tests already. LOL.

Arch
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gtc
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 06:55:37 AM »

Okay, before the big holiday sale ends on Monday at midnight Houston, Texas, time (2300 my time), tell me why I should order the upgrade from 67 to 111 markers.

I've had 67 markers since - when? - 2006 or 2007, I think. I'm glad I went to 67 when I did, because it's made a big difference.

I am in a dilemma. I have tested for several additional markers and have no idea what additional markers well beyond 67 markers (97 I think). I don't know if I'll be paying double for markers that I've tested for already if I go for the 111 marker upgrade. Also, the Gene2.0 chip is another one I've pondered since I have some Christmas cash burning a hole in my pocket right now. Geez I thought I was done with all the tests already. LOL.

Arch

Well, here's the list of markers 68 through 111 at FTDNA. Check against those you have already:

710   485   632   495   540   714   716   717   505   556   549   589   522   494   533   636
   575   638   462   452   445   GATA-A10   463   441   GGAAT-1B07   525   712   593   
650   532   715   504   513   561   552   726   635   587   643   497   510   434   461   435

« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 06:56:23 AM by gtc » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Jdean
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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 07:16:27 AM »

If you upgrade to 111 you are pretty much covered for all the loci used by other companies.
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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 09:31:04 AM »

Thanks for all the arguments, gentlemen. Pretty convincing. I may do it. Precedent wise, I know I benefited greatly when I upgraded from 37 to 67 markers (so long ago), so I tend to think of another move upward as a positive thing. I just have this thing about spending sums in excess of $100: I need to be convinced first. I'm pretty much there now.

I'll let you all know if and when I click the "submit order" button.
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 09:50:41 AM »

Okay. I did it.

Strike while the iron is hot, as they say . . . or while the sale is still on.

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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 10:13:52 AM »

Okay. I did it.

Strike while the iron is hot, as they say . . . or while the sale is still on.




Now here's another question: what's the typical turn-around time for 111-marker upgrade results?

I've gotten used to fast SNP test times, but I seem to recall that str results are slower.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 10:23:15 AM »

Now here's another question: what's the typical turn-around time for 111-marker upgrade results?

I've gotten used to fast SNP test times, but I seem to recall that str results are slower.
My time was about one month but the was one subpanel that was the slowest all by itself for a week longer.

Y-Refine67to111 (Introductory)         
  5/12/2011 Completed 408 
  4/13/2011 In Progress 408 
  4/13/2011 Batched 408 
  4/7/2011 Ordered 408


MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 10:47:29 AM »

Now here's another question: what's the typical turn-around time for 111-marker upgrade results?

I've gotten used to fast SNP test times, but I seem to recall that str results are slower.
My time was about one month but the was one subpanel that was the slowest all by itself for a week longer.

Y-Refine67to111 (Introductory)         
  5/12/2011 Completed 408 
  4/13/2011 In Progress 408 
  4/13/2011 Batched 408 
  4/7/2011 Ordered 408


MJost

That's not too bad.

I know there have been a lot of 111-marker upgrade orders because of the sale.

Have they fixed Ysearch yet so that it will take all 111 markers?
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k.o.gran
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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2012, 10:47:53 AM »

Okay. I did it.

Strike while the iron is hot, as they say . . . or while the sale is still on.

You and me both! I've ordered three 67->111 upgrades and one 12->67. Also I have a very close match (GD=1 @ 67 markers) with a different surname who ordered the 67->111 upgrade. Looking forward to seeing the results.

-Kai
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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2012, 10:49:05 AM »

Okay. I did it.

Strike while the iron is hot, as they say . . . or while the sale is still on.

You and me both! I've ordered three 67->111 upgrades and one 12->67. Also I have a very close match (GD=1 @ 67 markers) with a different surname who ordered the 67->111 upgrade. Looking forward to seeing the results.

-Kai

That should be exciting. None of my closest matches has ordered the 111-marker upgrade, as far as I know.

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« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2012, 11:49:16 AM »

Okay. I did it.

Strike while the iron is hot, as they say . . . or while the sale is still on.

You and me both! I've ordered three 67->111 upgrades and one 12->67. Also I have a very close match (GD=1 @ 67 markers) with a different surname who ordered the 67->111 upgrade. Looking forward to seeing the results.

-Kai

That should be exciting. None of my closest matches has ordered the 111-marker upgrade, as far as I know.



Fingers crossed for some nice off modal values especially in the 10 SMGF range, though how easy they'll be to access once they're moved to Ancestry is anybody's guess.
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rms2
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« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2012, 02:33:32 PM »

Okay. I did it.

Strike while the iron is hot, as they say . . . or while the sale is still on.

You and me both! I've ordered three 67->111 upgrades and one 12->67. Also I have a very close match (GD=1 @ 67 markers) with a different surname who ordered the 67->111 upgrade. Looking forward to seeing the results.

-Kai

That should be exciting. None of my closest matches has ordered the 111-marker upgrade, as far as I know.



Fingers crossed for some nice off modal values especially in the 10 SMGF range, though how easy they'll be to access once they're moved to Ancestry is anybody's guess.

I'm starting to get excited about the potential results. That happens every time I order some new test or upgrade, even after I wrestle with myself over spending the money. It's a funny thing: I have never experienced buyer's remorse over dna testing the way I have with other goods and services.

Of course, the most exciting thing was that initial 37-marker y-dna test that I ordered back in March of 2006. I could hardly bear the waiting for that.
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rms2
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« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2012, 02:45:57 PM »

BTW, I think I was one of the first guys to order the upgrade to 67 markers when it first became available (that's how I remember it, anyway). I was looking at my order history on my "myFTDNA" pages and here's what it says:

Y-Refine37to67    7/4/2006

So, I ordered the upgrade to 67 markers on the 4th of July, over six years ago.

I probably wasn't the first, but I was there early.
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Jdean
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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2012, 02:58:00 PM »

Okay. I did it.

Strike while the iron is hot, as they say . . . or while the sale is still on.

You and me both! I've ordered three 67->111 upgrades and one 12->67. Also I have a very close match (GD=1 @ 67 markers) with a different surname who ordered the 67->111 upgrade. Looking forward to seeing the results.

-Kai

That should be exciting. None of my closest matches has ordered the 111-marker upgrade, as far as I know.



Fingers crossed for some nice off modal values especially in the 10 SMGF range, though how easy they'll be to access once they're moved to Ancestry is anybody's guess.

I'm starting to get excited about the potential results. That happens every time I order some new test or upgrade, even after I wrestle with myself over spending the money. It's a funny thing: I have never experienced buyer's remorse over dna testing the way I have with other goods and services.

Of course, the most exciting thing was that initial 37-marker y-dna test that I ordered back in March of 2006. I could hardly bear the waiting for that.

This sounds quite similar to me except I normally end up getting more excited about other people's results, lacking many matches I tend to find myself a tad ahead in terms of testing and then end up spending a lot of time trying to convince others to follow suit :)
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2012, 03:01:01 PM »

Ciao Steve,
also me i remember my 67 STR upgrade in 2006..
 22/03/2006 Batched 145
a lot of time and SNP ago..  

if do you like to see the 111 STR results.. about the Bolgeri surname project Ftdna..
see this..
 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bolgeri/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
With others Bolgeri, Belgeri we were 8 steps at 67 STR and we are 11 steps at 111 STR
with the same lumbard valley origin and surname..

Giuseppe
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 03:04:39 PM by 1790Noll » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2012, 03:09:38 PM »

Ciao Steve,
also me i remember my 67 STR upgrade in 2006..
 22/03/2006 Batched 145
a lot of time and SNP ago..  

if do you like to see the 111 STR results.. about the Bolgeri surname project Ftdna..
see this..
 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bolgeri/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
With others Bolgeri, Belgeri we were 8 steps at 67 STR and we are 11 steps at 111 STR
with the same lumbard valley origin and surname..

Giuseppe

Hi, Giuseppe! Wow! You definitely were among the first to order the upgrade to 67 markers. You ordered it about the same time I ordered my initial 37-marker test, in March of 2006.

Sounds like the 111-marker upgrade worked out well for you.

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rms2
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« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2012, 03:13:13 PM »


This sounds quite similar to me except I normally end up getting more excited about other people's results, lacking many matches I tend to find myself a tad ahead in terms of testing and then end up spending a lot of time trying to convince others to follow suit :)

I emailed one of my closest matches and asked her (she's in charge of her dad's kit) to consider upgrading. Not sure she'll go for it, although she's gone along with all of my testing suggestions thus far. Upgrading to 111 markers might be like the title of one of my favorite movies, however: A Bridge Too Far. That's even if she sees my email before the sale is over.

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« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2012, 03:42:05 PM »

Okay. I did it.

Strike while the iron is hot, as they say . . . or while the sale is still on.

You and me both! I've ordered three 67->111 upgrades and one 12->67. Also I have a very close match (GD=1 @ 67 markers) with a different surname who ordered the 67->111 upgrade. Looking forward to seeing the results.

-Kai

Gee,

You guys just cost me $100+ by having this conversation. I went and ordered the 67 to 111 upgrade five minutes ago. Only one other 1111EE has 111 markers (Kabo L583-) but he is as close to me as Levin (L583+), both at 63/67. We'll see how it works out.
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rms2
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« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2012, 03:50:00 PM »

Okay. I did it.

Strike while the iron is hot, as they say . . . or while the sale is still on.

You and me both! I've ordered three 67->111 upgrades and one 12->67. Also I have a very close match (GD=1 @ 67 markers) with a different surname who ordered the 67->111 upgrade. Looking forward to seeing the results.

-Kai

Gee,

You guys just cost me $100+ by having this conversation. I went and ordered the 67 to 111 upgrade five minutes ago. Only one other 1111EE has 111 markers (Kabo L583-) but he is as close to me as Levin (L583+), both at 63/67. We'll see how it works out.

LOL! Admit it: you're an addict, like me.


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