Finally a Geno 2.0 of an R-L23

[Maliclavelli]

In the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” has been published the Geno 2.0. of a R-L23 guy:

N81217   Stoyan Karatepeoglu (~1800-?), Osenetz


CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F212+, F2142+, F2155+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F647+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L48-, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51-, L566+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L781+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, P312-, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6007+, PF601+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, U106-, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+

He is a Bulgarian but with a Turkish surname, then he is probably a Turk, i.e. an inhabitant of Asia Minor from where for Renfrew should have come agriculture and Y to Europe. By comparing his data with a Jew of the “R1b1 FTDNA Project”, it seems that he hasn’t Z2103 and Z2104 (Z2105 isn’t tested), then someone could think that we have found the first R-L23* we were in search, but…
At a first glance it seems that the new series of SNPs tested (CTS and  YSC) are above all present also in Sardinia (PF series):

CTS11468      CTS11468 PF6520   21533755   23124367   no      no      yes   yes   no      G -> T   
CTS11985      CTS11985 PF6523   21813137   23403749   no      no      yes   no   no      G -> A   
CTS12478      CTS12478 PF6529   26999666   28590278   no      no      yes   yes   no      G -> A   
CTS12632      CTS12632 PF2775   27059731   28650343   no      no      yes   yes   yes      G -> C   
CTS10834         21206085   22796697   no      no      yes   yes   no      C -> T   
CTS125         2804386   2744386   no      no      yes   no   no      T -> G   
CTS1996         12659010   14149010   no      no      yes   no   no      A -> G   
CTS2134      CTS2134 PF6253   12703384   14193384   no      no      yes   yes   no      G -> A   
CTS2664      CTS2664 PF6454   12926224   14416216   no      no      yes   yes   no      G -> A   
CTS3063         13147361   14637352   no      no      yes   no   no      T -> C   
CTS3135      CTS3135 PF5898   13189382   14679362   no      no      yes   yes   no      C -> A   
CTS3331      CTS3331 PF690   13349180   14839786   no      no      yes   no   no      A -> G   
CTS3575      CTS3575 PF6457   13546827   15037433   no      no      yes   no   no      C -> G   
CTS5577      CTS5577 PF6464   14885889   16376495   no      no      yes   yes   no      C -> A   
CTS7400      CTS7400 PF6469   15970872   17461478   no      no      yes   yes   no      T -> C   
CTS7659      CTS7659 PF6470   16104360   17594966   no      no      yes   no   no      G -> C   
CTS8591      CTS8591 PF6477   16604730   18095336   no      no      yes   no   no      C -> A   
CTS8665      CTS8665 PF6479   16647225   18137831   no      no      yes   no   no      T -> C   
CTS8728   rs9786876   CTS8728 L1063 PF6480   16676797   18167403   no      no      yes   yes   no      C -> T   
CTS623      CTS623 PF6419   6972992   6912992   no      no      yes   yes   no      G -> T   
YSC0000072   rs9786668   PF6426 YSC0000072   7826712   7766712   no      yes   Not verified (J-L147)   yes   yes   no      C -> T   
YSC0000166   rs9785924   PF6451 YSC0000166   12626584   14116584   no      yes   Not verified (J-L147)   yes   no   no      A -> T   
YSC0000194   rs9786685   PF6466 YSC0000194   15523124   17013730   no      yes   Not verified (J-L147)   yes   yes   no      A -> G   
YSC0000203   rs9786121   PF6482 YSC0000203   16891129   18381735   no      yes   Approx. hg: R-M343   yes   yes   no      A -> G   
YSC0000213   rs67497980   PF6496 YSC0000213   19297612   20838224   no      yes   Approx. hg: R   yes   no   no      A -> G   
YSC0000219   rs7067491   PF6497 YSC0000219   19682256   21222868   no      yes   Not verified (J-L147)   yes   yes   no      G -> C   
YSC0000225   rs9785716   PF6505 YSC0000225   20243674   21784286   no      yes   Approx. hg: R   yes   yes   no      G -> A   
YSC0000294   rs9786916   PF6489 YSC0000294   17688934   19179540   no      yes   Not verified (IJ)   yes   yes   no      A -> G   

and he gets a good   of the true PF:
PF6091+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+.

Of course we need other samples, but as Richard Rocca likes the probabìilities, I ask him: it is more likely that the Turk came from Italy or the other way around?

[Maliclavelli]

1   14   13   28   23   11   14   12   10,15   12   11   15   19   16   16   23   11   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 93   Goiás,Brazil [Admixed]   Admixed   Latin America


1   14   13   28   23   11   14   12   9,15   12   12   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   -1   >>

1 of 69   South Dakota, United States [Chippewa/Sioux]   Native American   North America


14   13   28   23   11   14   12 11,15                                             1   >>

1 of 109   Kahramanmaras, Turkey [Turkish]   Eurasian - Altaic   Asia

These are the closest haplotypes to this R-L23* found on YHRD. The presence in Turkey is obvious, but the presence in Native Americans probably cannot be explained as a simple European origin.

[Wayne Kauffman]

No Geno 2.0 y-SNP differences between N81217 and Burkholder (L277+).

[Maliclavelli]

No Geno 2.0 y-SNP differences between N81217 and Burkholder (L277+).

Many thanks, Wayne. We know that L277+ is under Z2103/Z2105+ which is under R-L23/L150+ and is parallel to L584+.

Unfortunately Geno 2.0 doesn't test the new SNPs from 1KGP from Z2103 to Z2120, but in our cases we know which is our line having tested Z2105 (which is on the same line of Z2103). Then Geno 2.0 is completely useless for us.

Anyway this result is important because has confirmed all this.

As also Mike Walsh has written in another forum, we need Geno 2.1, which tests all this new SNPs, and we'll be able to understand the subclades, if Z2104 present in the Sardinian pool is on the same line of Z2103/Z2105 or ancestral to them etc. And above all to find a first Z2103/Z2105-, i.e. R-L23*. But this will be obtained also by the test of Z2103/Z2105 on known R-L23/L150+ and L51-.

We are waiting Romitti's results yet, late for more than a month, but it is also likely  that no R-L23* has survived.

[Maliclavelli]

From eng.molgen for Worldfamilies’ friends:

1
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:22 am
Richard Rocca wrote:Kit no. N29277, Andolino Casimiro Varipapa, b.~1883, Casimiro, Italy has come back CTS7822+ (aka Z2110).


Varipapa is probably of Arbereshe origin, then, being Z2110 (and probably Z2103-2109), is at the end of the R-L23 SNPs like some Spaniards of 1KGP, and I said that Italy is the centre and Westwards and Eastwards the derived ones.

2
As it seems that Z2110 (CTS7822) is the unique SNP tested by Geno 2.0 amongst Z2103-Z2110, by Burkholder we do know that L277+ is probably under Z2103/Z2105 but not under Z2110. We shall wait for testing SNPs Z2106-Z2109.

3
In Burkholder have appeared also Z2103+, Z2105+. Urrah!

[Wayne Kauffman]

I was pointed to a fresh Geno 2.0 result for kit 150747 in the D-mtDNA project. Mendez is tested as V88+. A quick diff of the displayed public SNPs between Mendez and L277+ Burkholder is rather illuminating......