L51

[46cornwell]

Hello

I'm very new to geneological/DNA research. I was wondering if anyone here could help me with my results from FTDNA. I have spent quite a bit of money and time with limited knowledge testing my111 markers in search of some sort of paternal ancestral identity. I would greatly appreciate any helpful advice or information.

DYS 393:13
DYS 390:22
DYS 19:14
DYS 391:11
DYS 385:12-14
DYS 426:13
DYS 388:12
DYS 439:13
DYS 389I:13
DYS 392:13
DYS 389II:30

Thank you

[rms2]

Do you have a Ysearch ID number that you can share so we can look at your haplotype?

Have you done any SNP testing?

[46cornwell]

Yes, my ysearch ID is 6QMUC. There is another ID that matches me exactly but please disregard that one.. I simply made a mistake by making 2 ID'S.

As far as SNP testing goes I ordered a deep clade test and was assigned the R-L51 title and was told by FTDNA that further testing is not needed

[razyn]

I ordered a deep clade test and was assigned the R-L51 title and was told by FTDNA that further testing is not needed

Actual people at FTDNA know better, but their antiquated haplotree software doesn't.

[46cornwell]

How should I proceed? I seem to be at a stand still at the moment.

[rms2]

You could always try the Geno 2.0 test. You don't have any good matches. Hopefully Maliclavelli will see this thread and comment. The L51 neighborhood is his area of expertise.

Have you joined the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx

[razyn]

Another way would be to join the R1b project, and let Mike Walsh et al redirect you.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/

If Rich says you don't have any good matches, that might trump the "gateway" approach.  I don't have an opinion about your specific haplotype, or SNPs yet unknown (apart from being fairly confident that the latter exist).  Most of these big groups could use more 111 marker haplotypes, anyway.

[46cornwell]

Yes my kit number is 231206. I believe my group in the ht-35 project is _c.

As far as the general R1b project.. I did join that one but I have not contacted any of the administrators.

[46cornwell]

On a side note.. thank you for replying and helping me.. this experience has been quite frustrating and expensive for me.

[rms2]

On a side note.. thank you for replying and helping me.. this experience has been quite frustrating and expensive for me.

It's frustrating and expensive for all of us, but also informative and fun. This hobby takes time, but eventually matches come along, and so do further testing refinements.

[46cornwell]

Good news. I'll remain optimistic then.

[Maliclavelli]

You could always try the Geno 2.0 test. You don't have any good matches. Hopefully Maliclavelli will see this thread and comment. The L51 neighborhood is his area of expertise.

I thank you, rms, for calling me into the ring. I may say to Cornhill that:
1) if he put, erroneously, two ID on ySearch, he may go to “Editing an Existing User”,
Enter User ID:    
Password   
scroll down and delete the not desired ID.
2) he is an R-L51, we know probably originated between North Italy and South France (that he doesn’t care what some stupid is writing on another forum) and that also Ireland got a high percentage of this haplogroup, perhaps from South Europe, in very ancient times.
3) his haplotype matches many other different haplogroups within hg. R, but he should compare only with R-L51 and the closest to it and the fact that many R-L21-s are closer to him than R-L51 and R-L23 etc. is due only to convergent mutations.
4) he is very close to me (R-L23+/Z2105+/L277-/L584-) in many slow mutating markers (also in DYS464, but probably for convergent mutations), then he is an ancient line of R-L51 come probably from Italy many thousands of years ago and the mutations he gets with me may be useful to calculate the ancientness of our separation, but, taking in consideration these convergent mutations, the age is very ancient.
5) he should test his R-L51 for these new SNPs found in 1KGP and now tested by Geno 2.0, i.e the series from Z2111 to Z2120, and he will be able to see who is close to him: we have Italians and now Sardinians positive for some or all these SNPs.

[46cornwell]

I have removed the erroneous ID and thank you all for your valuable and intelligent input. I will most certainly pursue the Geno 2.0 option. Please forgive my ignorance on the matter Maliclavelli but how ancient are we talking about? Do you have a rough estimation by chance? This is all becoming very interesting!

[Maliclavelli]

[...] but how ancient are we talking about? Do you have a rough estimation by chance? This is all becoming very interesting!

We have discussed a lot about mutation rate. My idea was and is that markers mutate around the modal, that there is a convergence to the modal as time passes and that sometime a mutation goes for the tangent. Probably if someone calculates our distance by counting the mutations in our 95 testified markers would get a more recent time, but I make you note that we have 10 mutations in the first 12 markers, which mutate usually very slowly. For this I think that we may be separated also from 6000 years or more.
Certainly by a Geno 2.0. test you’ll be able to know your subclade within R-L51 and the possible link with Italians, Sardinians or other European peoples derived from them. I am expecting that someone communicates to me his results. We know which probably are the Italian/Sardinian subclades, the Iberian (and South American ones), and from them also the British/Irish ones.
Your DYS390=22 against my 24 may be worth 6000 years or more.

[Mikewww]

Yes my kit number is 231206. I believe my group in the ht-35 project is _c.

As far as the general R1b project.. I did join that one but I have not contacted any of the administrators.

The R1b-YDNA Yahoo group is intended to be a forum to talk to the R1b project administrators including administrators from subclade projects like U106 and ht35.

[46cornwell]

I have finally received my results from the geno2.0 test. It seems that I have maintained the L51 classification.. I am not quite sure what to make of this.. my reference populations from this test are British (UK) and German.. does anyone have a suggestion?

[Maliclavelli]

I have finally received my results from the geno2.0 test. It seems that I have maintained the L51 classification.. I am not quite sure what to make of this.. my reference populations from this test are British (UK) and German.. does anyone have a suggestion?

Your mutation PF7589+, found firstly, as the name says, in Sardinia, demonstrates what I said above. Even though we should ascertain if this Sardinian mutation has been found in a R-L51* and not on another haplogroup, it is very likely that your R-L51 came from Italy, seen that my country is probably at the origin of this haplogroup. We don’t know if the migration from Italy happened at the time of the Roman Empire or before, but the presence of R-L51 hugely in Ireland, which hadn’t a Roman colonization, makes us think that R-L51 arrived at the time of the Italian Refugium.
Of course only a comparison of the STRs values could demonstrate the time of this link.

[Maliclavelli]

22103   John Thomas Warner, b. 1786 SC; d. 1880 LA   England   R1b1a2a1a    13   24   14   11   11-15   13   12   12   13   13   30   17   9-10   11   11

25   15   19   29   14-15-15-18   10   11   19-23   16   14   19   18   37-39   11   12   11   9   16-16   8   10   10   8   10   11   12   23-23   16   10   12   12   15   8   

12   22   20   13   12   11   13   11   11   12   12   34   15   9   16   12   26   26   19   11   11   13   12   10   9   13   12   10   11   11   

30   12   13   24   13   10   10   24   15   18   14   24   17   12   14   24   12   23   18   12   14   17   9   11   11


This mutation is present also in this R-L51*, I don’t know why he is in the Viking project.

[Maliclavelli]

These samples have also the mutation CTS6889+ and many in the series from L470+ to L498+. Unfortunately I have no time now to study the question, but, if PF7589+ has been found in an Italian R-L51+, the origin from Italy of these samples would seem to me evident.