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Author Topic: Red Hair: Viking or Celtic? Mankind  (Read 1613 times)
gunslingingardener
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« on: December 15, 2012, 02:40:29 PM »

Ireland is made up of Celts and Vikings. Both were reported to have dark hair,  hair and red hair. Both were described as tall, or at least their warriors were tall.

I think that red hair comes from Vikings, such as Erik the Red.

The Celtic warriors from the Alps probably had dark hair, looking more Mediterrian European.

I was watching "Mankind: The Story of Us", and they give the Vikings a little too much credit. They acted like the Vikings were the Crusaders and styled themselves as European knights, when they were really just pirates and explorers. The fact is that the Frankish were the first knights.

If you go back further and read, the Celtic warriors were the first knights, being the ones who invented chainmail and were excellent cavalry, and there descendants, the Frankish who were the ones in the First Crusades.
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princenuadha
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 03:40:36 PM »

Atlantian.

An alternative theory is that they have no soul and their relation to those that do is unknown.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 03:42:51 PM by princenuadha » Logged
gunslingingardener
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2012, 04:50:32 PM »

Wow, I'm not redheaded, but you really do hate gingers, lol!
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2012, 07:09:24 PM »

This is kind of a pet subject of mine, since my youngest daughter is a redhead and all three of my grandchildren, two boys and a girl, the children of my youngest son, have red hair. I also found out from my Family Finder raw data that I carry one of the alleles for red hair. If I had two copies, I'd be a redhead myself.

There are different alleles for red hair, some common in one place, and others more common in another. So the red hair in Armenia, for example, could be the product of a different allele than the red hair in Ireland.

I don't think most of the red hair in the British Isles (including Ireland) can be attributed to the Vikings. The places where red hair is most frequent weren't heavily settled by Vikings, and Viking dna is scarce there. You might be able to make a better argument for the red hair in eastern England, in the old Danelaw, having come from Vikings, but even in eastern England there is still plenty of Celtic blood.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2012, 07:58:22 AM »

If I recall it's been calculated that about 8-10% of Irish population are red-headed, another 40-50% carry at least one allele. That's why you will see families here in Ireland where both parents are say brown-haired but they may have a kid who has red hair. The kid inherited the red-hair allele from both parents.

Of course in Irish accounts the Vikings were either Fionn-Ghaill or Dubh-Ghaill (Blond/white foreigners or Black/dark foreigners eg. Norse vs. Danes). There are of course accounts of red-heads in Irish mythology. Scáthach (shadowy one) the warrior queen on the Isle of Skye was recorded as been red-headed in texts that pre-date the viking era. Of course Scáthach is famous for having trained Cú Chulainn (Sétanta) in the arts of war.
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2012, 09:31:04 AM »

The Roman historian Tacitus, writing in the 1st century, long before the Vikings, said

Quote from: Tacitus
11. Who were the original inhabitants of Britain, whether they were indigenous or foreign, is as usual among barbarians, little known. Their physical characteristics are various, and from these conclusions may be drawn. The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin (Tacitus, Agricola, 11).

Of course, Caledonia was the Roman name for Scotland. Tacitus attributed the red hair and large limbs of the Caledonians to a German origin, but the Germans with whom Tacitus would have been familiar would have been those along the Roman frontier, in western Germany, in other words, the most Celtic of the Germans.

The point is, red hair was common enough in Scotland to be remarked on by a Roman historian long before any Vikings or Anglo-Saxons got there.
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A_Wode
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« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2012, 02:45:23 PM »

Ireland is made up of Celts and Vikings. Both were reported to have dark hair,  hair and red hair. Both were described as tall, or at least their warriors were tall.

I think that red hair comes from Vikings, such as Erik the Red.

The Celtic warriors from the Alps probably had dark hair, looking more Mediterrian European.

I was watching "Mankind: The Story of Us", and they give the Vikings a little too much credit. They acted like the Vikings were the Crusaders and styled themselves as European knights, when they were really just pirates and explorers. The fact is that the Frankish were the first knights.

If you go back further and read, the Celtic warriors were the first knights, being the ones who invented chainmail and were excellent cavalry, and there descendants, the Frankish who were the ones in the First Crusades.

Celtic, but there was always a 'Celtic' component among the vikings which was *not* the result of slaves. (ie: Ligurians were described as having long red hair)
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Heber
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« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2012, 04:18:03 PM »

With red hair and wearing Tartans similar to the Hallstatt culture, could they have been Bronze Age Proto Celts who migrated East. Six foot six redheads living on the border of Ancient China with perfectly preserved Mummies must be the oldest red heads on the planet. Their descendants "The Tocherians", spoke one of the oldest Indo European languages, second only to Hittite, which is an ancestor of Celt Italic.
You can see a Victor Mair lecture and National Geographic videos below.

"In the late 1980's, perfectly preserved 3000-year-old mummies began appearing in a remote Taklamakan desert. They had long reddish-blond hair, European features and didn't appear to be the ancestors of modern-day Chinese people. Archaeologists now think they may have been the citizens of an ancient civilization that existed at the crossroads between China and Europe.

Victor Mair, a specialist in the ancient corpses and co-author of “Mummies of the Tarim Basin”, said:"Modern DNA and ancient DNA show that Uighurs, Kazaks, Krygyzs, the peoples of Central Asia are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. The modern and ancient DNA tell the same story.”

The discoveries in the 1980s of the undisturbed 4,000-year-old ”Beauty of Loulan” and the younger 3,000-year-old body of the ”Charchan Man” are legendary in world archaeological circles for the fine state of their preservation and for the wealth of knowledge they bring to modern research. In the second millennium BC, the oldest mummies, like the Loulan Beauty, were the earliest settlers in the Tarim Basin. "

One of the most famous Tocharian mummies found, the so-called "Beauty of Loulan"; and right, her face as reconstructed by an artist.

“Beauty of Loulan” The oldest mummies found in the Tarim Basin come from Loulan located at the east end of the egg shaped Taklamakan Desert. Dressed only in shades of brown, she was alive as early as 2000 B.C. during the era of Abraham and the patriarchs. She died when she was about 40. Next to her head there is a basket which contains grains of wheat."

"Chärchän man wore a red twill tunic and tartan leggings. Textile expert Elizabeth Wayland Barber, who examined the tartan-style cloth, discusses similarities between it and fragments recovered from salt mines associated with the Hallstatt culture."

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummies.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sWdfzIreUfg

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WY0acUCvZEs

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=8cUwYGp5wvc

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Heber


 
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2012, 06:10:29 PM »

If the Tarim Basin mummies were Tocharians, their language was not Italo-Celtic. No connection to the actual Celts other than the fact that they spoke a language in the big IE family, that's my opinion.
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princenuadha
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« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2012, 10:16:40 PM »

Not that this is relevant to the topic at hand, but wouldn't it be better to describe the relationship between Celtic and Tocharian with Centum?
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2012, 05:30:53 AM »

Not that this is relevant to the topic at hand, but wouldn't it be better to describe the relationship between Celtic and Tocharian with Centum?

Well I could be mistaken but "Centum" language retained the original sound. eg. Proto-IE would be classes as "Centum", so fact that Tocharian doesn't show Satem sound shift doesn't imply that they are closer to todays Centum languages then todays Satem languages. It just means they didn't take part in that particular sound shift, perhaps due to the fact that they were more isolated from surronding IE speakers who did.

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inver2b1
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2012, 11:06:31 AM »

What is the rs number to check on 23andme for the gene related to red hair?
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I-L126
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 11:34:22 AM »

What is the rs number to check on 23andme for the gene related to red hair?

I'm not sure for 23andMe, but the one in my Family Finder raw data is rs1805008. I have a "TC" there. The "T" is what transmits red hair, but it's recessive, so you have to have two of them to actually have red hair. I carry the trait, but I don't display it (my hair is brown and rapidly going gray).

Rs1805008 is apparently the same thing as R160W or Arg160Trp, which is one of the "RHC" (Red Hair Color) variants on the MC1R gene. It's the most common one in Ireland.

There is a thread on the subject of red hair in the autosomal subforum here at World Families: Red Hair and Family Finder.

Here is an article from 23andMe's blog that deals with red hair SNPs.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 11:41:45 AM by rms2 » Logged

inver2b1
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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2012, 12:23:38 PM »

Thanks, going by the list on the 23andme blog I have two of the alternates for each one. For example in rs1805008 I have CC.


SNP “Red Hair”  Version
rs34474212     C
rs1805006       A
rs11547464      A
rs1110400        C
rs1805007        T
rs1805008       T  
i3002507          C
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 12:24:30 PM by inver2b1 » Logged

I-L126
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« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2012, 10:16:52 PM »

The latest British study, POB I think, announced on the BBC gave Scotland as having the highest % of red hair at 13% Ireland was 2nd at 10% the scientests involved are now looking at external sources particularly climate! Intresting but I think theres alot more involved than was given on the radio. Also I think these studies can be very subject to the local regions involved especially in Ireland, Scotland, Wales and probably NW and W England (CastleBob would know more about the latter).
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