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IALEM
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« on: December 13, 2012, 01:51:46 PM »

I just read the horse, the wheel and Language. It is a book I have seen many times mentioned on this forum, and from that i thought it would be a paramount defender of migrationism as an explanation for language shift (and especifically for the adoption of IE languages in Western Europe) but to my surprise I see he is nothing of that sort.

He explains the expansion of IE languages through Western Europe very much like Mallory, using Fredrick Barth theories of social hierarchy. There was no migration of large populations from the Steppes, and certainly no replacement, but just the arrival of some groups that through the influence of their social structure, more hierarchically organized, expanded IE languages.

He is also very dismissal of the value of DNA for Language research, in a 2002 intervention he explicitally calls to avoid being trapped by the false expectatives of DNA research.

So, in all I have to say I am most surprised to see Anthony so many times quoted by defenders of the expansion of IE languages through large migrations and population replacement.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 01:53:24 PM by IALEM » Logged

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gtc
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2012, 11:42:34 PM »

That's a book that I must get around to reading, too.

Regarding  "in a 2002 intervention he explicitally calls to avoid being trapped by the false expectatives of DNA research"  I'd simply note that DNA research has come a long way since 2002.

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012, 11:53:36 AM »

His book if very good for explaining the eastern IEs by simple migration but then he makes a very complex model for western Europe and doesnt even go west of the Corded Ware culture at any stage.  Its like an update of Mallory and like him it convincingly explains the eastern European and Asian IEs but not the western half of story.  In terms of the west and Celts, Italics etc its pretty much not really progressed in Antony's book since Mallory wrote.  He may be wrong and there was a small but important/poweful steppe element in Corded Ware.  Mallory suggested some sort of link with beaker but that was at a time when beaker was being derived from western corded ware.

One thing people who dont read the book carefully miss the fact that the eastern languages are not explain in the immediate sense by waves from the Yamnaya steppes but rather from a chain of Corded Ware linked cultures (Corded Ware-Middle Dneiper-Fatyanovo-Abashevo-Sintashta) heading east from the steppe border around the western edge of the Ukraine passing through the forrest steppe then into Asia.  Maybe the Corded Ware themselves had a steppe element and it was a kind of reflux but that is not as yet a common view among archaeologists. 

All I really derive from the ancient DNA evidence is that Corded Ware and a group of linked cultures who struck east across the forrest steppe are very closely linked to the Saetem IE languages and R1a although it probably not quite as simple as that.  So the big question is whether R1a got into Corded Ware from the steppes and there was then a reflux back through the forrest steppes by an R1a/saetem group OR whether R1a already existed in the pre-Yamnaya period late Neolithic cultures around the Carpathians. 


This however is all very frustrating from an R1b point of view.  It also seems to have appeared out of an area that was peripheral to farming in the early Neolithic so I think the SW Asia idea based on the modern distribution of L23* and V88 is a non-starter unless the variance dating methods are wrong.  I am these days inclined to think M269 was located within or very close to the western edge of the steppes and that its deeper origin lay on the steppes.  Modern distribution of R1a in the steppe Ukraine is actually down to almost total population replacement in the last 250 years as the Slavs settled lands that had been conquered by a sequence of steppe groups, the last being the Mongol Tatars.  So, never look at the modern lack of R1b north of the Black Sea in Ukraine and read anything into it about the history before the late 18th century AD.   
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012, 12:01:45 PM »

That's a book that I must get around to reading, too.

Regarding  "in a 2002 intervention he explicitally calls to avoid being trapped by the false expectatives of DNA research"  I'd simply note that DNA research has come a long way since 2002.



I do get frustrated by his book being treated like the bible of IE studies.  He still fails to explain the centum languages in any convincing way which IMO undermines everything.  I personally think there is a case that the main drivers of IE were non-Yamnaya type farming groups just east of the steppes and that goes for both saetem and centum languages.  The detail is obsure but the crucible that created the expansive cultures like Corded Ware and its derivatives that expanded IE seems to be just west of the steppes where farming and steppe cultures met.  You could say that IE was largely spread by non-Yamanaya groups who had taken a lot of influence from them. However, they may have influenced them and given them some material culture but did they give them their language?  I am very suspicious that PIE arose on the steppe-farmer interface area somewhere near the Carpathians rather than the deep steppes such as the classic Yamnaya theory would have.   
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2012, 12:58:33 PM »

It's an excellent book, although at times it bogs down in "pot details" and other minutiae and drags along. I agree with Alan that it is regarded at the various dna chat venues as the final word on the early Indo-Europeans. You can spot posts that have Anthony's book as their sole source (if you've read it yourself, that is).

I enjoyed the book, but it is horribly, terribly weak on the spread of IE to the west. I find the cultural domino effect theory incredible. For a small area, it's believable, but not for the entire IE language region. Notice, however, that it is really only applied to the west. In the east, the aR1ans can point to R1a as the invaders responsible for bringing IE. In the west, that flops, so they have to come up with the whole lame, Barth bag.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 01:01:47 PM by rms2 » Logged

IALEM
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2012, 03:45:10 PM »



I enjoyed the book, but it is horribly, terribly weak on the spread of IE to the west. I find the cultural domino effect theory incredible. For a small area, it's believable, but not for the entire IE language region. Notice, however, that it is really only applied to the west. In the east, the aR1ans can point to R1a as the invaders responsible for bringing IE. In the west, that flops, so they have to come up with the whole lame, Barth bag.
The IE expansion to the East is through the steppes, where migration of compact groups is easier and also easier to spot by archaeologists.
As for the explanation to the IE expansion to the West, I have to say I am of quite another opinion, to me is the best part of the book, using the system developed by Barth in a very sensible way. To me the "cultural domino" as you call that, is the most sensible explanation for a large area, while on the contrary, migrationism could explain only small areas.
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2012, 10:41:41 PM »

See, I find that unbelievable. A long chain of remarkably similar cultural events, from the Carpathians to the western shores of the Atlantic, inspiring people to abandon their native languages for Indo-European, absent any major migration? Too fantastic.

Even the Romans, with their military might and genius for administration, were unable to spread Latinate languages beyond the handful of Romance-speaking countries, and they came in force.
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gtc
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 11:24:21 PM »

Even the Romans, with their military might and genius for administration, were unable to spread Latinate languages beyond the handful of Romance-speaking countries, and they came in force.

After doing Latin for 6 years, I can tell you why it wasn't popular.  ;-)
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 07:53:26 AM »

Does anyone know how to find a list of ancient DNA R1a samples. 
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IALEM
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 09:42:14 AM »

See, I find that unbelievable. A long chain of remarkably similar cultural events, from the Carpathians to the western shores of the Atlantic, inspiring people to abandon their native languages for Indo-European, absent any major migration? Too fantastic.

Even the Romans, with their military might and genius for administration, were unable to spread Latinate languages beyond the handful of Romance-speaking countries, and they came in force.
As I see it it is not a chain of cultural events, but a change in social structure, from more egalitarian to more hierarchical. People People was "inspired" by the hope of social advance. To me the massive population replacement through large migration looks much more fantastic, butI guess is down to personal perceptions.

As for the Romans, they were not interested in spread Latin, Greek remained the administrative language in the eastern half of the Roman Empire, while in the West only those interested in social promotion started learning Latin. That spread slowly to the lower classes, but not by any effort from the Roman administration. In fact, Latin was a big success, because it was in the end spoken in the whole Western half of the Roman Empire.

I guess we will never agree on this subject of Language spread, but my point when I started this thread is that, to my surprise given how many times David Anthony is quoted in a migrationist context, I found that he is actually defending the social change explanation for language spread, which I find very sensible.
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2012, 10:03:50 AM »

Does anyone know how to find a list of ancient DNA R1a samples. 

They should all be here.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 10:50:39 AM »

See I fall in between the migratory waves and the non-migrationists.  I think R1b conssited initially of some important trade controlling lineage that established itself in strategic nodal points relating to trading, ore etc.  Their numbers initially may have been very small but really grew and also really spread out at a time when their numbers were still very low.  However, their importance and wealth was huge and their goods and knowledge were wanted everywhere.  In that way I see the beaker culture as a temperature European non-urban version of the sort of trading cultures we see along the Med throughout prehistory.  The fact they were traders did not mean they werent militaristic too and those cultures saw some incredible wars (usually with a major naval aspect) relating to trade etc.  Many empires (British included) was really to a large degree about poweful a minority controlling trade nodes.  
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 11:01:35 AM »

Does anyone know how to find a list of ancient DNA R1a samples. 

They should all be here.

Either my computer is not opening that properly or its very non user friendly.  I would be surprised if noone out there has a more simple at a glance ancient R1a list.  It wouldnt be all that long!
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2012, 07:15:06 PM »

I have no trouble opening that site. It's the only compendium of ancient dna I know of on the web. Polako might have a list of ancient R1a, but I think he might have been banned from here.

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princenuadha
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2012, 07:29:52 PM »

Why not just use Jean's. I do even if she doesn't want me to : )

 http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 07:31:02 PM by princenuadha » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2012, 07:37:50 PM »

Why not just use Jean's. I do even if she doesn't want me to : )

 http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

That's the one I sent him to.
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Bren123
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« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2012, 05:52:31 PM »

Even the Romans, with their military might and genius for administration, were unable to spread Latinate languages beyond the handful of Romance-speaking countries, and they came in force.

After doing Latin for 6 years, I can tell you why it wasn't popular.  ;-)

What is wrong with Latin,mey i ask?
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LDJ
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« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2012, 03:01:23 AM »

Even the Romans, with their military might and genius for administration, were unable to spread Latinate languages beyond the handful of Romance-speaking countries, and they came in force.

After doing Latin for 6 years, I can tell you why it wasn't popular.  ;-)

What is wrong with Latin,mey i ask?

Nothing at all ... if you like mental torture. (LOL!)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAfKFKBlZbM
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 03:04:14 AM by gtc » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2012, 04:49:50 AM »

Even the Romans, with their military might and genius for administration, were unable to spread Latinate languages beyond the handful of Romance-speaking countries, and they came in force.

Answer: A “handful of Romance speaking countries”? Neo-Latin languages are spoken so far from about 700,000,000 people and only in the Americas from Quebec to Tierra del Fuego. The same US have about 40 millions of Spanish speaking people. The same English has more than 50% of Latin words and constructions. Latin didn’t expand in the East part of the Empire because there was the Greek language, more prestigious, and that Romans admired and respected, but be aware that Spanish doesn’t play in US the role that Greek played against Latin.

The problem isn’t Latin languages, that, like any other language, isn’t more difficult than any others, but Romans and their history. Who probably funded this sketch are those who think to descend from that guy who wrote upon the wall not knowing that their faith in a Messiah and the action of the sicarii provoked two wars that practically exterminated those people.

We all are searching the answer through genetics and we will see which it will be.
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Maliclavelli


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rms2
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« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2012, 10:54:42 AM »

But Gioiello, the Romans didn't spread latinate languages to the Western Hemisphere. I was talking about what the Romans themselves were able to accomplish (not that spreading their language was the first of their concerns). Despite their military might and their genius for administration, among other things, they were not even able to spread Latin or a latinate speech to every part of their empire.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2012, 01:11:29 PM »

But Gioiello, the Romans didn't spread latinate languages to the Western Hemisphere. I was talking about what the Romans themselves were able to accomplish (not that spreading their language was the first of their concerns). Despite their military might and their genius for administration, among other things, they were not even able to spread Latin or a latinate speech to every part of their empire.

All Western Hemisphere was Latinized, the problem was Eastern one for what I said. Of course The Isles maintained their Celt languages and North Africa its Berber ones, but many people wrote in Latin there, from Apuleius to Saint Augustin and infinite others. The only places where a previous language survived were Basque and Albanian, but a great part of their vocabulary is of Latin origin, but because they lived in mountainous regions. Of course there is also a lost Latinity, due to subsequent invasions: all the region southward the Limes: South Germany, Pannonia, Ex Yugoslavia. The only Latin survived from there is Romanian (and Arumenian, Vlach etc, now more and more assimilated).
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2012, 02:49:43 PM »

Even the Romans, with their military might and genius for administration, were unable to spread Latinate languages beyond the handful of Romance-speaking countries, and they came in force.

Answer: A “handful of Romance speaking countries”? Neo-Latin languages are spoken so far from about 700,000,000 people and only in the Americas from Quebec to Tierra del Fuego. The same US have about 40 millions of Spanish speaking people. The same English has more than 50% of Latin words and constructions. Latin didn’t expand in the East part of the Empire because there was the Greek language, more prestigious, and that Romans admired and respected, but be aware that Spanish doesn’t play in US the role that Greek played against Latin.

The problem isn’t Latin languages, that, like any other language, isn’t more difficult than any others, but Romans and their history. Who probably funded this sketch are those who think to descend from that guy who wrote upon the wall not knowing that their faith in a Messiah and the action of the sicarii provoked two wars that practically exterminated those people.

We all are searching the answer through genetics and we will see which it will be.


Latin was the "Lingua Franca" ie the commercial language at the time, there was no interest to spread it or force it on conquered peoples, its what English language is today...you want to communicate , please use English


there was always 2 versions of latin, the original which is now based under Gallo-Italico and the other based on Gallo-Iberico

you can see this if you search for  ' La Spezia Rimini Line" or use wiki below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia%E2%80%93Rimini_Line
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 02:53:40 PM by Alpine » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2012, 12:22:13 AM »

Notice that where latinate languages were spread to the New World, they were spread by actual Spaniards, Portuguese, and Frenchmen. The two former, especially the Spanish, went a long way toward replacement of the Amerindian y-dna lines at the same time they were replacing their languages.
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