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Author Topic: Norman DNA U152 or U106?  (Read 2208 times)
gunslingingardener
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« on: November 27, 2012, 01:25:42 PM »

Which one is more likely to be from the Norman invaders?

Do both have Swiss markers?


England 26 matches
Ireland 14 matches
Germany 10 matches
France 8 matches
Switzerland 7 matches
Scotland 5 matches
Italy 2 matches
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Webb
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 03:43:52 PM »

I would say of the two, U106.  If the lineage of the Norman is in fact Norse than the haplotype could be I1 or U106 since both seem to be about 40% each, roughly, of the male Scandanavian population.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 04:10:00 PM »

L21+ Irish slaves brought to Scandinavia, return to the Isles as Normans from Normandy. ;)
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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 06:05:03 PM »

I would say of the two, U106.  If the lineage of the Norman is in fact Norse than the haplotype could be I1 or U106 since both seem to be about 40% each, roughly, of the male Scandanavian population.

Why do you say roughly 40% I1 and 40% U106?

The total mix of Scandinavia is quite diverse and includes less frequent haplogroups, such as E and N, but also more common ones such as R1b. Steve Harding, Tori King and Mark Jobling teamed on a 2010 DNA study called the Old Norway Project.

This chart from the Old Norway presentation nicely shows the complexity of the Y DNA breakdown.
http://www.4shared.com/photo/4wJX65Jk/Old_Norway_Project_y_Hg_map.html

About a third of the Y DNA is R1b to go along with the high frequencies of I1 and R1a. R1b splits about half and half between P312 and U106 subclades depending on the location with U106 being strong in Denmark and the southern tip of Sweden.

Here is the full presentation. They discuss various distribution scenarios for Scandinavian input into the British Isles. Its quite interesting.
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczsteve/Gothenburg_13Oct2011.pdf
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 06:10:36 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 06:09:06 PM »

L21+ Irish slaves brought to Scandinavia, return to the Isles as Normans from Normandy. ;)

I'm not sure there were that many Irish slaves in Scandinavia, at least that survived. Take a look at the Old Norway Project data in the prior post and look for M222+.  Notice that the proportion of M222+ to L21 is quite a bit lower than it is in Ireland. The implication is that a lot of the L21+ in Scandinavia has been there a long time, from well before the Viking Age.
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Jdean
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 07:38:35 PM »

L21+ Irish slaves brought to Scandinavia, return to the Isles as Normans from Normandy. ;)

I'm not sure there were that many Irish slaves in Scandinavia, at least that survived. Take a look at the Old Norway Project data in the prior post and look for M222+.  Notice that the proportion of M222+ to L21 is quite a bit lower than it is in Ireland. The implication is that a lot of the L21+ in Scandinavia has been there a long time, from well before the Viking Age.

I think that's why OConner finished with a wink :)

Welcome back Mike !!
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 08:01:18 PM »

I don't think Scandinavians were ever all that well represented in Normandy. I think they formed a thin veneer on top for awhile and then were absorbed. Of course, I could be wrong, but thus far the single best represented haplogroup in the Normandy Y-DNA Project is R-L21, and if you include it in the broader R-P312 haplogroup, P312 outnumbers U106 by quite a bit.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults

The Normandy Y-DNA Project is a small project, though, and cannot take the place of a scientific study.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 08:01:29 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 08:11:18 PM »

I don't think Scandinavians were ever all that well represented in Normandy. I think they formed a thin veneer on top for awhile and then were absorbed. Of course, I could be wrong, but thus far the single best represented haplogroup in the Normandy Y-DNA Project is R-L21, and if you include it in the broader R-P312 haplogroup, P312 outnumbers U106 by quite a bit.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Normandy/default.aspx?section=yresults

The Normandy Y-DNA Project is a small project, though, and cannot take the place of a scientific study.


Oh, I wanted to add that U152 is relatively scarce in Scandinavia. It isn't likely to represent Viking ancestry anywhere. If Normans brought U152 to England - and some of them may have - its ultimate source, like probably most of the Norman L21, was Gallic, in other words, Celtic.
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Webb
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2012, 08:32:34 PM »

Mikewww, I was referencing the distribution maps.  The map of u106 shows the heaviest concentration along the coasts of Scandinavia at between 30% and 40%.  The same for I1, except that concentration is at 40% to 45% at its heaviest concentration along the coasts.
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William B. Webb
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 08:04:17 AM »

L21+ Irish slaves brought to Scandinavia, return to the Isles as Normans from Normandy. ;)

I'm not sure there were that many Irish slaves in Scandinavia, at least that survived. Take a look at the Old Norway Project data in the prior post and look for M222+.  Notice that the proportion of M222+ to L21 is quite a bit lower than it is in Ireland. The implication is that a lot of the L21+ in Scandinavia has been there a long time, from well before the Viking Age.

If it is true that Scandinavia lost 1/3 of it's population from the plague, we may never know extent of P312 subclades before that time. Or do you think the population recovered to reflect the earlier population?
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Solothurn
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 08:42:06 AM »

Normandy U152+ inc L2+ not inc L20

Ysearch and project, some just say France so ?

566RD  Duval  Lorraine La Ville Remiremont Normandy
SC8DM  LeBourgeois  Caen, France
T8E62   Fortier    Dieppe, France
3A5MS  Le Compte   Saint Aignan sur Ry
N23792    Anthoyne Forestier, d. 07 Oct 1635, Dieppe, France
N9474    Jean Renouf babt 1610 Guernsey Channel Islands

FTDNA 'match' from Château-Gontier, France. Some of my 'matches' are marked private inc Perreault, Allaire and Boiron!


Scandinavian U152+ from U152 project and Ysearch

Denmark

86729    Christen JØRGENSEN of Lunde Amt, Denmark
N78542    Niels Nissen, 1853 - 1908
170267    Hinrich Leonhard Kraus b. abt. 1745 Denmark
224183    (Jensen)
N72390    Søren Hybertsen, d. 1748, Randers, DK
PMGKY   Eriksen   Stige, Denmark

Norway

198590    Jacob Syvertsen Mollestad b1733, Birkeland, Norway
100804    Ola Børgersson Preståseie, ca. 1700, Stange, HED
167787    Harald Svendss Øksne, 1762-, Søndre Land, Oppland,
79YQ2   Overgard   Stange, Hedmark, Norway
5SVXB   Thorshaug   Hof, Vestfold, Norway
130274    Private

Sweden  

N2620    Lars Fulfisk (b. 1714 Gärdsjö, Östra Amtervik
B1802    Carl Gustaf Classon b. 1847, Gålsjö (Y)
N67917    Nils Henning Ekholm born 1896 Stockholm
212243    Niels Eriksson, 1575: Furved, Gesäter, Sweden
N14983    Henrik Hansson, b.c 1676, Lysekil (O), Sweden
B5CSE   Olsson   Brännarebygden, Jämshög, Sweden
dhz9z       Berlin  Lysekil, Sweden



« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 09:18:37 AM by Solothurn » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2012, 11:39:26 AM »

If you look at recent scientific studies, U152 is relatively rare in Scandinavia.

It probably is fairly well represented in Normandy, but that is probably due to the fact that it is generally well represented in France and not due to any Scandinavian input.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2012, 05:59:11 PM »

Mikewww, I was referencing the distribution maps.  The map of u106 shows the heaviest concentration along the coasts of Scandinavia at between 30% and 40%.  The same for I1, except that concentration is at 40% to 45% at its heaviest concentration along the coasts.

What distribution maps? The Old Norway Project is probably our best representation of what's in Scandinavia. About half the R1b appears to be P312. R1a has a good showing too... and then are smaller groups like N, J, etc.

... but anyway, I think RMS is correct. Normandy may be more made up of other folks than Scandinavian immigrants.... modern day for sure.

Their language may be an indicator. The Normans weren't speaking Norse, I don't think. Didn't they speak Old French? a romance language with heritage from Romano-Gaul.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 06:03:52 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2012, 06:17:59 PM »

In Northeast France there was  the Piedmontese language spoken.

In the East of France and Mediterranean coast there was Occitan or language d' Oc.  There were several other dialects there (Provincial) and still spoken today though discouraged.  Some street signs in villages are still there in the Occitan and I am told some of the old folks in small Correzian villages speak it.
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