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rms2
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« Reply #100 on: December 18, 2012, 12:07:34 PM »

As posted elsewhere it's now confirmed that DF41+ is L1335-, likewise there is at least one L1335+ who is DF41- confirming that the two snp's are parallel under DF13. Dave mentioned that Price in Wales-II cluster tested L1335+ this makes L1335 considerably broader/older. We are looking at another multi-signature SNP akin to the other members of the "Big Seven" (DF21, L513, DF49, Z253, Z255, DF41 and now L1335)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Well, I thought I was going to be reporting something that was news, but I see Dave Reynolds beat me to it.

Price (kit 19706) is in Mike's 1810-W2 cluster, which is definitely not Scots Cluster and includes a number of other guys with ancestry in Wales.

No Scots Cluster guys have gotten an L1335- result yet, and I don't think any of them will, not one that is strongly in the cluster, anyway.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 12:17:48 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #101 on: December 18, 2012, 12:57:03 PM »


So does this mean that the Scots modal probably represents a Strathclyde Briton origin rather than Pictish or Dalriadan?

There was definitely a connection between the Britons of southern Scotland and those of North Wales during the immediate post-Roman Period. Here's a quote from Nora Chadwick's Celtic Britain (p. 66):

Quote from: Nora Chadwick
Welsh history is generally believed to begin with the arrival of a certain Cunedag (later Welsh Cunedda) and his sons, as related by Nennius in the Historia Brittonum (ch. 62, cf. p. 40 above). This account tells us that Cunedag and eight of his sons and one grandson came from Manau Guotodin 146 years before the reign of Maelgwn, prince of Gwynedd (cf. p. 45 above), in the time of his great-grandfather, and that they had 'expelled the Irish for ever from those lands'.

Manau Guotodin, often called Gododdin, was located in what is now eastern Scotland north of Hadrian's Wall and south of the Firth of Forth.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 01:01:34 PM by rms2 » Logged

Albannach
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« Reply #102 on: December 18, 2012, 01:47:04 PM »

Isn't the Scots modal more common in the north of Scotland?. And is it not more frequent amongst people with Highland surnames? Seems odd. The only explanation I can think of that makes sense is Dubhthach's explanation that it is Pictish but an early branch off from what became Brythonic speakers. The Romans made no distinction between Britons north of the antonine wall and those south of it in the days of the Caledonii. Does L135 predate the Roman invasion of Britain?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 04:46:40 PM by Albannach » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #103 on: December 18, 2012, 02:13:08 PM »

I think it probably is Pictish. What you had in the immediate post-Roman Period, before the Anglo-Saxons cut North Wales off from southern Scotland, was a big, Brythonic-speaking region from Cornwall up through Wales, what is now northern England, and on into Scotland.

Most of the male inhabitants of this region were probably L21+ of various subclades. Apparently one of those subclades was L1335.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 02:14:44 PM by rms2 » Logged

Dubhthach
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« Reply #104 on: December 18, 2012, 04:31:22 PM »

I think it probably is Pictish. What you had in the immediate post-Roman Period, before the Anglo-Saxons cut North Wales off from southern Scotland, was a big, Brythonic-speaking region from Cornwall up through Wales, what is now northern England, and on into Scotland.

Most of the male inhabitants of this region were probably L21+ of various subclades. Apparently one of those subclades was L1335.

Dumbarton on the Clyde derives it's name form the Irish/Scottish Dún Breathainn (The Fort of the "Britions" eg. Welsh) Even to this day in the Irish language we call the welsh language Breatnaise, and a welshman is a Breathnach (Mike's surname in Irish is likewise Breathnach). It was of course the capital of the kingdom of Strathclyde before it's sack by the Gall-Ghaeil (Norse-Gaels).

-Paul
(DF41+)
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ysearcher
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« Reply #105 on: December 18, 2012, 11:56:24 PM »

Quote from: Nora Chadwick
Welsh history is generally believed to begin with the arrival of a certain Cunedag (later Welsh Cunedda) and his sons, as related by Nennius in the Historia Brittonum (ch. 62, cf. p. 40 above). This account tells us that Cunedag and eight of his sons and one grandson came from Manau Guotodin 146 years before the reign of Maelgwn, prince of Gwynedd (cf. p. 45 above), in the time of his great-grandfather, and that they had 'expelled the Irish for ever from those lands'.

Quote from another source -
Kenneth
Definition -
The Gaelic name Cinaed, meaning "born from fire", was a common one in the MacAlpine family and when one of their clan became the first king of Scotland in the ninth century the name was anglicised to Kenneth. There was another Gaelic name, Coinneach, meaning "fair, handsome", from which the Mackenzies get their surname, which was also anglicised as Kenneth. Short forms are Ken, Kennie and Kenny. Cenydd is the Welsh form of the name, which goes back to the Dark Age King of the Gododdin, Cunneda, founder of the dynasty of Powys and celebrated in verse by the great medieval Welsh poet Aneirin.

And finally from Wikipedia -
Cináed mac Ailpín (Modern Gaelic: Coinneach mac Ailpein),[1] commonly Anglicised as Kenneth MacAlpin and known in most modern regnal lists as Kenneth I (810 - 13 February 858) was king of the Picts and, according to national myth, first king of Scots, earning him the posthumous nickname of An Ferbasach, "The Conqueror".[2] Kenneth's undisputed legacy was to produce a dynasty of rulers who claimed descent from him and was the founder of the dynasty which ruled Scotland for much of the medieval period.

Siol Alpin (from Gaelic, Sìol Ailpein: Seed of Alpin) is a family of seven Scottish clans able to trace their descent from Alpin,[1] father of Cináed mac Ailpín, King of the Picts, of whom the Scots tradition considered the first King of Scots.[2] The seven clans that make up Siol Alpin are: Clan Grant, Clan Gregor, Clan MacAulay, Clan Macfie, Clan Mackinnon, Clan Macnab, and Clan MacQuarrie.

Clan Gregor (also Griogair, MacGregor, Mac Gregor, McGregor, M'Gregor) is a Highland Scottish clan. It is considered the most senior clan of Siol Alpin, translated as 'Seed of Alpin', referring to King Kenneth I Mac Alpin), descending from the ancient Kings of the Picts and Dál Riata.

The current chief of Clan Gregor, MacGregor of MacGregor, is very clearly R-L1335* Scots Modal. The above quotes strung together on a moment's notice are nothing more than the suggestion of remote possibilities, but I certainly hope the Welsh connection holds up, & I certainly hope we get additional haplotype diversity of this nature. Along with the other R-L21+ Big Seven, we may be getting close to sorting out the British phylogenetic history of Britiain. Hard to believe that so much of the legend could have real origins in ancient myth.

By the way, I came back positive today as well. My surname Tagert is derived from Taggart > MacTaggart> MacEntaggart> Mac-an-t'Sagairt. Translated "son of the coarb". The coarb was an office in the early Celtic Christian church, before it was absorbed by the Roman Catholic church. John Tagert the immigrant was first recorded in 1766 Maryland (Octoraro Hundred), died in Logan county, KY after 1810. Probably related to the Tagert family of Newton-Stewart, County Tyrone, an area of Northern Ireland colonized by the Ulster Plantation.

Pat Tagert
Kit 14346
Ysearch - MABKF

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2012, 05:37:18 AM »

The office of Comharba (comarbae = old Irish) survived up until the 17th century. It actually refer to the successor of the founder of a monastic tradition, after the reforms in the 11th/12th century it and the role of related role of Airchinnech (erenagh) became laiscised (sic -- part of the laity), though of course the holders tended to take "minor orders" and wear the tonsure.  Anyways both of these position were heredity in nature. The surname MacInerney of course means son of the Airchinneach (eg. Mac an AIRCHINNIGH)

Of course even though the Church in Gaelic Ireland was nominately catholic, before the reformation cause sharp lines to be drawn it's was quite divergent in many ways from the church in the contient.

There are several cases of multi-generational Bishops for example
  • x was bishop in diocese x
  • y son of x was bishop in diocese y
  • z son of y & grandson of x was bishop in diocese z

"Gaelic and Gaelicised Ireland during the Middles ages" gives a good example of this from the 14th/15th century but I don't have it at hand at the moment.
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rms2
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« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2012, 10:50:13 AM »

Our L371+ and L96+ guys have come up L1335-.

Otherwise, there should be lots of happy Scots this morning. :-)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 10:50:41 AM by rms2 » Logged

Celtarion
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« Reply #108 on: December 22, 2012, 12:37:07 PM »

I took a look at pending L1335 tests, at least in the R-L21 Plus Project. For continental testing we currently have two Germans, one Dane, and one Frenchman awaiting L1335 results.

From what I could see, none of them is in the Scots Cluster.

Would you have the results regarding the 2 Germans, 1 Dane, and the Frenchman? I would be curious to know! Regarding the Frenchman, is there a kit number available?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 12:46:33 PM by Celtarion » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1a2a1a2c1f2* (P312+>L21+>DF13+>Z253+>Z2534+>?)
MtDNA: M30-C16234T

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rms2
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« Reply #109 on: December 22, 2012, 01:10:56 PM »

I took a look at pending L1335 tests, at least in the R-L21 Plus Project. For continental testing we currently have two Germans, one Dane, and one Frenchman awaiting L1335 results.

From what I could see, none of them is in the Scots Cluster.

Would you have the results regarding the 2 Germans, 1 Dane, and the Frenchman? I would be curious to know! Regarding the Frenchman, is there a kit number available?

Thanks!

The two Germans were Krueger, kit 140503, and Wigand, kit 65932. Both of them are L1335-.

There was also a Spaniard, Lenares, kit N43805, who got an L1335- result.

The Frenchman still waiting on L1335 is Brunet, kit 198135. The Dane is Stryhn, kit 210257.

There is a Swede, Erickson, kit N5620, who has ordered L1335, but whose sample has not been batched yet. He is pretty close to the Scots Modal, so I expect him to be L1335+.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 01:14:17 PM by rms2 » Logged

MostDK
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« Reply #110 on: December 25, 2012, 06:49:21 AM »

When I get the result from batch 492, which was batched 28-11-2012, I expect to be DF13** (1511-A-T2*) as the day before.

But because it's old, I have to test ....

Kind regards,

Morten, f210257, ysearch MZTCZ

I'm L1335-

Kind regards, Morten
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« Reply #111 on: December 25, 2012, 11:00:46 AM »

Our L144+ guy, Braswell, kit 33102, is L1335-, so that takes care of that.

Irvine, kit 22874, who is L555+, also got an L1335- result.
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seferhabahir
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« Reply #112 on: December 26, 2012, 05:31:06 PM »


Now...

count_derived:    40
count_tested:    113
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

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« Reply #113 on: January 02, 2013, 04:25:27 PM »

I was wondering if there is any new news with L1335 ??
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


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« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2013, 05:17:12 PM »

Early result..I'm L1335-

 Z255- Z253- SRY2627- P66- M73- M65- M37- M222- M18- M160- M153- M126- L96- L555- L513- L371- L195- L193- L192.1- L159.2- L144- L1335- L130- DF49- DF41- DF23- DF21- DF1- 

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


brunetmj
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« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2013, 08:10:56 PM »

I am the Frenchman mentioned above who is waiting for L 1335, now one day past due.
I am posting this under the superstition that as soon as I post it will appear as completed.
hmm maybe I have been watching to many beer commercial during football games.
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L21 DF13** French
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« Reply #116 on: January 22, 2013, 03:55:46 PM »

Apparently, according to the customer care rep, my L1335 twice failed the quality control tests. This is the first failure of any of the multiple tests I have taken at FTDNA. I have no idea why this test is different.
So they are now testing a third time which could take 4 or 5 weeks . Oh well will just sit back and relax.
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L21 DF13** French
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« Reply #117 on: January 23, 2013, 12:49:05 PM »

I finally received my L1335 result and it was negative.
I think that makes me DF13**
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L21 DF13** French
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