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rms2
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« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2012, 01:21:45 PM »

I placed an ordered to keep my DF13** status and now my HaploTree page now shows:

"Your Test Is In Progress...
The following tests are in progress: L1334, L1335."

A fast turn around anticipated.

MJost



I think you're right. Lots of orders are rolling in.

We got our L96+ volunteer, so all we are waiting on now is an L371+ guy to test for L1335.
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rms2
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« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2012, 03:37:34 PM »

This morning we got an L371+ volunteer to agree to test for L1335, so everything is in place to get L1335 onto ISOGG's tree as soon the needed results come in.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2012, 03:58:29 PM »

The industry sure has come a long way since my first test in Jun 3, 2008.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
seferhabahir
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« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2012, 06:26:53 PM »


I think you're right. Lots of orders are rolling in.


How many orders for L1335 do you see in batch 492?
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

rms2
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« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2012, 08:38:55 PM »


I think you're right. Lots of orders are rolling in.


How many orders for L1335 do you see in batch 492?

I count 68 L1335 orders in Batch 492.
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OConnor
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« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2012, 09:06:43 AM »

after 68 results we should have a fairly good idea where L1335 stands. I think I'll wait till some results come in. I don't think I am close to the so called Scots Model group.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2012, 11:37:57 AM »

I think this question has been asked on a previous post, what is the "so called Scots model group"?...Pictish??
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Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2012, 11:58:55 AM »

@ OConnor
I think what some may be thinking, that it is possible that L1335 may be pre-Scots Model..Of course, I may be wrong on this..
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OConnor
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« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2012, 04:24:19 PM »

one thing I don't understand is when people refer to someone as Scots-Irish. What is the meaning of that?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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inver2b1
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« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2012, 04:45:08 PM »

one thing I don't understand is when people refer to someone as Scots-Irish. What is the meaning of that?

I think it's to show that they have Ulster Plantation background, Ulster Scots is also used.
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Jdean
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« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2012, 07:03:51 PM »

An L1334 result came back Wednesday, I'm sure that's got to be record L1334 & 5 were only announced last Thursday !!!!

Unfortunately negative but this was for a 19-24 Scot so not too much of a surprise.
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

seferhabahir
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« Reply #61 on: November 30, 2012, 07:08:36 PM »

An L1334 result came back Wednesday, I'm sure that's got to be record L1334 & 5 were only announced last Thursday !!!!

Unfortunately negative but this was for a 19-24 Scot so not too much of a surprise.

That appears to be Templeton who is L743+ but I wonder what his L1335 result is going to be??
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 07:09:50 PM by seferhabahir » Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Jdean
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« Reply #62 on: November 30, 2012, 07:12:29 PM »

An L1334 result came back Wednesday, I'm sure that's got to be record L1334 & 5 were only announced last Thursday !!!!

Unfortunately negative but this was for a 19-24 Scot so not too much of a surprise.

That appears to be Templeton who is L743+ but I wonder what his L1335 result is going to be??

I'm betting Plus
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Y-DNA R-DF49*
MtDNA J1c2e
Kit No. 117897
Ysearch 3BMC9

seferhabahir
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« Reply #63 on: November 30, 2012, 08:10:06 PM »

Templeton said he ordered L1334 and L1335 on Tuesday, three days ago...
Kit 63127   R1b-P312>L21>DF13**>L743   13**-1030-Sc-23-743

Maybe they are testing L1334 orders first.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Mark Jost
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« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2012, 12:15:39 AM »

I think it was a pre test with a known Scots modal.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
ysearcher
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« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2012, 04:20:08 PM »

Looking at DF13 & DF49 results recently, the turnaround appears to be about 6 - 10 days for first batch for new SNPs. I hope that's true for this one. From my FTNDA account, projected results for batch 492 are 01/14/2013 - I certainly hope we get them back before then.

I'm not very active on many of the  forums any longer, but I monitor them from time & time & I am in many projects, so I usually get notifications for any major SNP discoveries. I'm R-DF13* Scots Modal & I did the WTY in Sept. 2009 - no new SNPs. In 2008 - 2009 I put together a fairly large spreadsheet of R-L21* Scots modal haplotypes. I have tested about 102 STRs, but have not ordered the 111 marker test, because I tested many of those markers "a la carte" before the 111 marker test was available. I'm just not willing to pay for everything two or three times. My kit no. is 14346 & Ysearch ID is MABKF. I'm also administrator of the rather small Taggart/MacTaggart project.

Someone asked about "Scotch-Irish". The term still confuses people. The corresponding British term is Ulster Scot, which more accurately describes the ethnicity of those who belong to the ethnic/cultural/historical group. The term is specific to the colonists who were sent to northern Ireland/Ulster in the late 16th century (beginning in the 1590's ??) by James I of England/ VI of Scotland to displace the tenaciously rebellious native Irish of Ulster. James the I/VI is better known to Americans as the king who sent the first colonists in 1607 to what would become Jamestown, Virginia. He was also the monarch who commissioned the biblical scholars & translators who first published an English version of the Bible that would come to be known as the King James version.

Most of the colonists who were selected for Ulster were from among the strongest supporters of James I/VI in the southwestern lowlands of Scotland - Renfrew, Ayre, Galloway, etc. A perusal of Scottish history is enough to understand that those Lowland provinces were themselves colonized in previous centuries from Highlanders from various clans & regions of Scotland. Thus, the Ulster Scots were then, & are now, a good sampling from all of Scotland. The term Scotch-Irish was coined in America in the 19th century as new waves of native Irish immigrants deluged American cities following the hardships & famine in Ireland in the mid 1800s. The Scotch-Irish had begun to immigrate to America (& Canada) in three major waves, starting circa 1715 & continuing through to the last major wave circa 1769 - 1780. The last wave was particularly coincidental to the American Revolution, & especially in the American South, the overwhelming majority were very strong supporters of the American rebellion. They typically described themselves as Irish throughout this era. When the native Irish began to arrive in large numbers in the mid 1800s, this was a source of great confusion, & the earlier protestant Ulster Scots began to refer to themselves as "Scotch-Irish". The term was used from that time onward, & has stuck to the present. While many did indeed have Scottish sounding surnames, many had names that would not be immediately recognizable as Scottish. Prior to Ulster Scot immigration to America, Ulster had also become a repository for Protestant refuges from Continental Europe, the Palatine Germans & French Huguenots specifically. These had already begun to intermingle with the Ulster Scots before immigration to America, & that trend continued in America. The Scotch-Irish were quickly pushed to the western frontiers after arrival on the eastern seaboard, where they quickly assumed the role of buffer against the hostile native Americans of the west & the more settled eastern colonies.
There they became deeply entrenched in the many Indian wars, until the remaining native Americans of the south, midwest & east were finally relegated to reservations in Oklahoma.

One of the primary reasons that the R-L21* Scots Modal was initially recognized as Scottish was it's obvious distribution of surnames that are closely associated with many Highland Clans. The current chief of Clan Gregor, Gregor of MacGregor, is Scots Modal. An overwhelming majority of Clan Campbell is Scots Modal, & many, many other Highland clans have very large representations of Scots modal amongst their surnames.

So what does it all mean & what will we be able to say about this subclade when results are back in larger numbers? That's a much tougher question. The Romans coined the term Pict to describe the entire population beyond Hadrian's Wall & the Antonine Wall, which of course includes all of the haplogroups & subclades which then existed. I am quite certain that this would include many/most of the haplogroups & subclades that are currently present in native Scots. Thus, it seems simplistic to attach a Pict label to this subclade & not to others. The question of Dal Riata has been batted back & forth, but it seems a little like the chicken or the egg question. There has surely been movement across the Irish Sea for millennia. An age of about two thousand years has been proposed for this subclade. The only written records of that era are from Roman & Greek sources. I suspect that when it is all said & done, we will not be able to attach any specific historical/cultural significance to the SNP, except for it's distribution, which appears to be the all of the northwestern regions of the British Isles, as far south as Wales & Cornwall. It does appear to be a SNP that originated in the Isles among the indigenous people of Alba. The best promise of sorting out R-L1335 will be downstream SNPs yet to be discovered.

Patrick Tagert
Kit - 14346
Ysearch - MABKF
R-DF13* Scots Modal
Adminstrator - Taggart/MacTaggart project
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My father - Herbert Tagert (now deceased) - Family Finder
 

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OConnor
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« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2012, 01:44:10 AM »

I would be interested in testings for R-L1335 in Scandinavia.

Are there any Scots-model people outside of Scotland? Other than Ireland?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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ysearcher
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« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2012, 02:42:26 AM »

Yes, a few northwest European results continue to turn up for Scots Modal. One of my near matches is for an American gentleman with a German surname, & history connecting to Germany. Another is to a Norwegian - this one I discovered long ago by comparing results from Relative Genetics, if anybody remembers them (a company owned by Ancestry.com). The Norwegian match was to a family with very well documented history in southwestern Norway.

A little searching would probably turn up many others. How many I have no idea, but I'm sure they are out there. I believe that there are few enough results outside of the British Isles & British colonists for these occurrences to be consistent with Scots dispersal over the past two thousand years or more. Some of these Scottish emigrations are recorded by history. I'm sure that even more are not. At any rate, I think it is entirely probable that these will test positive for L1335 as well.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #68 on: December 03, 2012, 10:03:01 AM »

Checking the L21 spreadsheet, there are seven non-isles guys

France
Germany
Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
Norway
Norway, Oestland
Sweden, Jämtland län
Switzerland, Bern, Emmental, Langnau

I agree with Pat, I dont think there was much Scots dispersal but the few North Sea guys might have a very small increase in variance than the overall cluster.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2012, 05:01:11 AM »

As expected, Templeton, kit 63127, got an L1335+ result. He's a Scots Cluster guy. I will probably create an L1335+ category for the R-L21 Plus Project when I get back home this evening. I don't have time right now because it involves shuffling some things around.
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rms2
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« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2012, 08:22:40 AM »

As expected, Templeton, kit 63127, got an L1335+ result. He's a Scots Cluster guy. I will probably create an L1335+ category for the R-L21 Plus Project when I get back home this evening. I don't have time right now because it involves shuffling some things around.

I had a little time this morning, so I created the L1335+ category and put kit 63127 and all the other closely related Templetons in it.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2012, 11:39:52 AM »

The Scots modal guys make up a good chunk of DF13* having their own SNP should make things more interesting when looking at DF13* as it will remove a big chunk.
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rms2
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« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2012, 08:44:42 PM »

That's true. It will be nice to thin that DF13* category out a bit.
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OConnor
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« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2012, 09:42:47 PM »

any thoughts on possible continental testing?

...Does the Scots model have 458=18..??
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2012, 10:00:28 PM »

Here's what I have for the Scots Modal:

1. 391 less than or equal to 10

2. 449 greater than or equal to 30

3. 441 greater than or equal to 11

4. 413a less than or equal to 22

5. 531 greater than or equal to 12

6. H4 = 12

7. YCAIIb = 24


That's the modal. Obviously there are variations.

I don't know what they have at 458, but apparently it's nothing out of the ordinary.
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