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Jdean
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« on: November 23, 2012, 11:41:04 AM »

Just in case anybody hasn't picked up on this over on the Yahoo Forum.

The latest Scots Modal WTY has come through with two new SNPs, L1334 & L1335

Consequently these positions were looked up on the 1000 Genome project where kit no.  HG00096 (an Orkney sample) was found to be positive for L1335 & also in the PGP project where another L1335 + sample turned up.

It also looks extremely likely that the previous Scots Modal candidate was positive for L1335 but the sample wasn't conclusive enough to call with the forward primer.

FTDNA have covered this area for a few other L21 people including a Z253 and M222 kit, both of which were negative and a DF27 kit which again was negative.

The total GD over 111 loci between the two Scots Modal kits is 18 so this is looking good !!
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 11:43:57 AM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2012, 02:11:21 PM »

Just in case anybody hasn't picked up on this over on the Yahoo Forum.

The latest Scots Modal WTY has come through with two new SNPs, L1334 & L1335

Consequently these positions were looked up on the 1000 Genome project where kit no.  HG00096 (an Orkney sample) was found to be positive for L1335 & also in the PGP project where another L1335 + sample turned up.

It also looks extremely likely that the previous Scots Modal candidate was positive for L1335 but the sample wasn't conclusive enough to call with the forward primer.

FTDNA have covered this area for a few other L21 people including a Z253 and M222 kit, both of which were negative and a DF27 kit which again was negative.

The total GD over 111 loci between the two Scots Modal kits is 18 so this is looking good !!


Man, that is HUGE news, or at least it is potentially.

Is FTDNA going to offer those two SNPs soon, or are they already offering them?
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Jdean
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2012, 02:19:31 PM »

Just in case anybody hasn't picked up on this over on the Yahoo Forum.

The latest Scots Modal WTY has come through with two new SNPs, L1334 & L1335

Consequently these positions were looked up on the 1000 Genome project where kit no.  HG00096 (an Orkney sample) was found to be positive for L1335 & also in the PGP project where another L1335 + sample turned up.

It also looks extremely likely that the previous Scots Modal candidate was positive for L1335 but the sample wasn't conclusive enough to call with the forward primer.

FTDNA have covered this area for a few other L21 people including a Z253 and M222 kit, both of which were negative and a DF27 kit which again was negative.

The total GD over 111 loci between the two Scots Modal kits is 18 so this is looking good !!


Man, that is HUGE news, or at least it is potentially.

Is FTDNA going to offer those two SNPs soon, or are they already offering them?

Hopefully they won't hang about, they've already got the primers !!

An L1335 plus result would make a nice Christmas present :)

Of course L1334 is worth exploring, especially for those Scots with YDAII 19-22 which is the values this fellow has.
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2012, 02:24:41 PM »

Just in case anybody hasn't picked up on this over on the Yahoo Forum.

The latest Scots Modal WTY has come through with two new SNPs, L1334 & L1335

Consequently these positions were looked up on the 1000 Genome project where kit no.  HG00096 (an Orkney sample) was found to be positive for L1335 & also in the PGP project where another L1335 + sample turned up.

It also looks extremely likely that the previous Scots Modal candidate was positive for L1335 but the sample wasn't conclusive enough to call with the forward primer.

FTDNA have covered this area for a few other L21 people including a Z253 and M222 kit, both of which were negative and a DF27 kit which again was negative.

The total GD over 111 loci between the two Scots Modal kits is 18 so this is looking good !!


Man, that is HUGE news, or at least it is potentially.

Is FTDNA going to offer those two SNPs soon, or are they already offering them?

I checked just now, and I see these are so new that FTDNA is not offering them yet.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2012, 02:26:27 PM »

Just in case anybody hasn't picked up on this over on the Yahoo Forum.

The latest Scots Modal WTY has come through with two new SNPs, L1334 & L1335

Consequently these positions were looked up on the 1000 Genome project where kit no.  HG00096 (an Orkney sample) was found to be positive for L1335 & also in the PGP project where another L1335 + sample turned up.

It also looks extremely likely that the previous Scots Modal candidate was positive for L1335 but the sample wasn't conclusive enough to call with the forward primer.

FTDNA have covered this area for a few other L21 people including a Z253 and M222 kit, both of which were negative and a DF27 kit which again was negative.

The total GD over 111 loci between the two Scots Modal kits is 18 so this is looking good !!


Man, that is HUGE news, or at least it is potentially.

Is FTDNA going to offer those two SNPs soon, or are they already offering them?

Hopefully they won't hang about, they've already got the primers !!

An L1335 plus result would make a nice Christmas present :)

Of course L1334 is worth exploring, especially for those Scots with YDAII 19-22 which is the values this fellow has.

WFN is moving so slowly today that I started that last post before I saw your response. Sorry.

This is BIG news, though. There are a lot of Scots Modal guys out there who have been waiting a long time for their own SNP, beyond L21, that is.
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Jdean
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2012, 02:30:57 PM »

Just in case anybody hasn't picked up on this over on the Yahoo Forum.

The latest Scots Modal WTY has come through with two new SNPs, L1334 & L1335

Consequently these positions were looked up on the 1000 Genome project where kit no.  HG00096 (an Orkney sample) was found to be positive for L1335 & also in the PGP project where another L1335 + sample turned up.

It also looks extremely likely that the previous Scots Modal candidate was positive for L1335 but the sample wasn't conclusive enough to call with the forward primer.

FTDNA have covered this area for a few other L21 people including a Z253 and M222 kit, both of which were negative and a DF27 kit which again was negative.

The total GD over 111 loci between the two Scots Modal kits is 18 so this is looking good !!


Man, that is HUGE news, or at least it is potentially.

Is FTDNA going to offer those two SNPs soon, or are they already offering them?

Hopefully they won't hang about, they've already got the primers !!

An L1335 plus result would make a nice Christmas present :)

Of course L1334 is worth exploring, especially for those Scots with YDAII 19-22 which is the values this fellow has.

WFN is moving so slowly today that I started that last post before I saw your response. Sorry.

This is BIG news, though. There are a lot of Scots Modal guys out there who have been waiting a long time for their own SNP, beyond L21, that is.

Not just me then, I was going to reset my internet

I think four separate WTY tests says it all !!! Take up should be pretty good for these :)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 02:32:52 PM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2012, 02:47:04 PM »

Just in case anybody hasn't picked up on this over on the Yahoo Forum.

The latest Scots Modal WTY has come through with two new SNPs, L1334 & L1335

Consequently these positions were looked up on the 1000 Genome project where kit no.  HG00096 (an Orkney sample) was found to be positive for L1335 & also in the PGP project where another L1335 + sample turned up.

It also looks extremely likely that the previous Scots Modal candidate was positive for L1335 but the sample wasn't conclusive enough to call with the forward primer.

FTDNA have covered this area for a few other L21 people including a Z253 and M222 kit, both of which were negative and a DF27 kit which again was negative.

The total GD over 111 loci between the two Scots Modal kits is 18 so this is looking good !!


Man, that is HUGE news, or at least it is potentially.

Is FTDNA going to offer those two SNPs soon, or are they already offering them?

Hopefully they won't hang about, they've already got the primers !!

An L1335 plus result would make a nice Christmas present :)

Of course L1334 is worth exploring, especially for those Scots with YDAII 19-22 which is the values this fellow has.

WFN is moving so slowly today that I started that last post before I saw your response. Sorry.

This is BIG news, though. There are a lot of Scots Modal guys out there who have been waiting a long time for their own SNP, beyond L21, that is.

Not just me then, I was going to reset my internet

I think four separate WTY tests says it all !!! Take up should be pretty good for these :)

No, it's really slow. Everything else is normal.

As soon as FTDNA starts offering those new SNPs, I'll send out a bulk email to our project members. I agree with you that sales will be brisk.
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Jdean
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2012, 07:50:20 PM »

David Reynolds has just posted on Yahoo that both the last two Scots in WTY are now confirmed L1335 plus !!!

The other two weren’t covered for this SNP, lucky the Scots are a tenacious lot :)
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2012, 09:41:30 AM »

David Reynolds has just posted on Yahoo that both the last two Scots in WTY are now confirmed L1335 plus !!!

The other two weren’t covered for this SNP, lucky the Scots are a tenacious lot :)

Are they 19-22 or 19-24 at YCAII?

In other words, is this development something for the Scots Modal guys as a whole or just for a subsection of them?

L1334 is the 19-22 thingy, right?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 09:42:19 AM by rms2 » Logged

Jdean
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2012, 12:28:11 PM »

David Reynolds has just posted on Yahoo that both the last two Scots in WTY are now confirmed L1335 plus !!!

The other two weren’t covered for this SNP, lucky the Scots are a tenacious lot :)

Are they 19-22 or 19-24 at YCAII?

In other words, is this development something for the Scots Modal guys as a whole or just for a subsection of them?

L1334 is the 19-22 thingy, right?

These are the WTY results

48641          19-22       L1335+        L1334+

N44383        19-24       L1335+        L1334-


They have a GD of 18 @ 111 loci using the Infinite allele mutation model or 21 with the Hybrid mutation model, so they aren't closely related by any stretch of the imagination, certainly more than good enough for ISOGG :)

Also an L1335+ has turned up in both the 1000 Genome project and PGP projects so expectations that this is going to cover at least a very large proportion of Scots, if not all, is very high.

Of course L1334 is well worth pursuing as well but should probably be targeted by 19-22 folks first to make sure it's not private and then possibly extended.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 12:34:11 PM by Jdean » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2012, 05:00:46 PM »

David Reynolds has just posted on Yahoo that both the last two Scots in WTY are now confirmed L1335 plus !!!

The other two weren’t covered for this SNP, lucky the Scots are a tenacious lot :)

Are they 19-22 or 19-24 at YCAII?

In other words, is this development something for the Scots Modal guys as a whole or just for a subsection of them?

L1334 is the 19-22 thingy, right?

These are the WTY results

48641          19-22       L1335+        L1334+

N44383        19-24       L1335+        L1334-


They have a GD of 18 @ 111 loci using the Infinite allele mutation model or 21 with the Hybrid mutation model, so they aren't closely related by any stretch of the imagination, certainly more than good enough for ISOGG :)

Also an L1335+ has turned up in both the 1000 Genome project and PGP projects so expectations that this is going to cover at least a very large proportion of Scots, if not all, is very high.

Of course L1334 is well worth pursuing as well but should probably be targeted by 19-22 folks first to make sure it's not private and then possibly extended.



Looks good. Thanks for that. It makes things much clearer.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 06:26:35 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 06:27:28 PM »

So, does the Scots Cluster represent Pictish y-dna ancestry?

If it does, maybe we should agree to sponsor the L1335 test of any guy in that cluster who agrees to tattoo "R-L21 Plus Project" across his forehead in woad. ;-)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 06:30:07 PM by rms2 » Logged

OConnor
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« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2012, 08:50:31 AM »

my 19-23 is not a fit.

Do they have 458=18 like some Scots I have seen??
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


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« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2012, 09:15:00 AM »

Here are the characteristic marker values, although, as with any cluster, there is variation at individual markers.

1. 391 less than or equal to 10

2. 449 greater than or equal to 30

3. 441 greater than or equal to 11

4. 413a less than or equal to 22

5. 531 greater than or equal to 12

6. H4 = 12

7. YCAIIb = 24


There is a subset of Scots Cluster guys with 19-22 at YCAII, for example.

I have to be honest and admit that I am not an expert on the Scots Cluster, since I haven't followed it all that closely.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:40:27 AM by rms2 » Logged

Jdean
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« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2012, 09:44:35 AM »

There are also some important values in the 111 loci

DYS717 = 21 is I think considered very significant.

I'd site this one out a bit if I were you and see if it turns out it covers a lot more than just the Scots Modal.
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Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2012, 09:50:15 AM »

Does R1b1a2a1a1b4g (L193) represent the Scots Modal?
And if so wouldn't L1335 be under L193.

I am 19-22 , and have tested L193-
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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2012, 11:05:43 AM »

Does R1b1a2a1a1b4g (L193) represent the Scots Modal?
And if so wouldn't L1335 be under L193.

I am 19-22 , and have tested L193-

No. Scots Modal guys are negative for L193, which is below L513.
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Mike Forsythe
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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2012, 11:28:32 AM »

Thanks Rich,

So would it make sens for me to test for L1335 being 19-22 at yca, if it is available,although I don't match up well with your "Scots Modal" shown above??
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Albannach
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2012, 11:48:54 AM »


This is great news,  us Scots can finally be something more specific than plain old L21!

Have any Scots came back L1334- L1335- so far? and does anyone have any idea how old L1335 and L1334 are yet?.

I'm 19-24 so I'm assuming I'm L1335+ L1334- though I do plan to test eventually.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2012, 01:44:42 PM »

I think too the lessons of P314.2 should be borne in mind.  It was eventually found that the SNP (and therefore the lineage) was much older than the distinctive STR cluster.  In other words the cluster was merely a later rather distinctive (in STR terms) an numerically dominant subset of all P314.2 people.  The latter included outliers who had very few of the distinctive STRS of the cluster and the one of two STR similarities they did share with the main cluster were only seen with hindsight.

The same maye be true of this new SNP IF (and this is an important IF) the new SNP is significantly older than the STR based identifiable cluster. If ALL Scots modal people who test are positive for the new SNP then it probably is older than the Scots cluster.  If some are negative then it could be younger.  

IF it is older than the cluster and therefore all from the cluster who test are positive,  the Scots cluster is likely a subset of people with the SNP.  Indeed the best hints of the deeper origins of the lineage that led ultimately to the Scots cluster may lie in those very people who share the new SNP but dont look like part of this cluster.  However, finding such people will take pioneer types who want to take a long shot.  Also, people should look at the SNP tree for L21 or take advice on it because people with certain SNPs already might be able to rule themselves out. Rich mentioned that   Z253, M222 and DF27 kit were negative.  I assume the M222 negative also means that all DF23 are negative??? 

I personally hope the SNP is significantly older than the Scots cluster as this will not detract from it as the SNP of the Scots modal cluster but will also possibly tell us something about the even older roots of this lineage as the cluster is only about 2000 years old I understand.  The deeper roots of this lineage and SNP might be suggested by the location of non-cluster people with the SNP. 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 01:51:38 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2012, 01:52:44 PM »

What about DF21?  Is it known to be negative for this or can this be surmised?
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« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2012, 02:06:05 PM »

What about DF21?  Is it known to be negative for this or can this be surmised?

I think these guys are DF13+ but negative for the big six. L1335 will be under DF13 and peer to the big Six.

f16273   Anderson   R1b-P312>L21>DF13 *   13*-1030-Sc
f193619   Owen   R1b-P312>L21>DF13 *   13*-1030-Sc
f66126   Taylor   R1b-P312>L21>DF13 *   13*-1030-Sc
f10348   Lee   R1b-P312>L21>DF13 *-   13*-1030-Sc
f107327   Iles   R1b-P312>L21>DF13 *-   13*-1030-Sc-2415
f143812   MacRae   R1b-P312>L21>DF13 *   13*-1030-Sc-2424

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2012, 02:12:17 PM »

Thanks Rich,

So would it make sens for me to test for L1335 being 19-22 at yca, if it is available,although I don't match up well with your "Scots Modal" shown above??

You can give it a shot when it becomes available. We don't know its limits yet, although, obviously, Scots Modal guys have the best chance of a positive result.
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« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2012, 02:17:44 PM »

What about DF21?  Is it known to be negative for this or can this be surmised?

I don't know how many of the DF13+ SNPs they have eliminated yet. I read that Z253 and M222 have been eliminated for L1335, but I'm not sure about the rest.

I agree with your previous post about the possibility of L1335 being older than the Scots Cluster. That's why I told Mike Forsyth (above) that we don't know its limits yet. It could cast a wider net than merely the Scots Cluster, which would no doubt be a good thing for some of our current DF13* guys.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:17:55 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2012, 02:25:38 PM »

What about DF21?  Is it known to be negative for this or can this be surmised?

I don't know how many of the DF13+ SNPs they have eliminated yet. I read that Z253 and M222 have been eliminated for L1335, but I'm not sure about the rest.

I agree with your previous post about the possibility of L1335 being older than the Scots Cluster. That's why I told Mike Forsyth (above) that we don't know its limits yet. It could cast a wider net than merely the Scots Cluster, which would no doubt be a good thing for some of our current DF13* guys.

Certainy last I head P314 was far older than the cluster with a few people being discovered who had only one or two STRs in common with the cluster being discovered to be P314.  Interestingly too they had a completely different distribution from the cluster and from memory they were north European continental in total contrast to the cluster who were all isles people (almost all down the Atlantic coasts of Ireland and Scotland).  So, the cluster is useful for the historic period while the SNP had an even wider use and hinted at far older continental roots.  
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 02:27:13 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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