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Maliclavelli
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« on: November 23, 2012, 05:36:49 AM »

1)   The first is that I (and an English scholar) have found the family of origin of an adopted American  by 23andMe.
2)   The others are offered by Dienekes. Ashkenazi Jews are closer to Tuscans more than any other European people. I said this many years ago after my deCODEme and 23andMe and this gained my banishment from DNA-forums at the end of 2008.
3)   The last paper of Ottoni about the diffusion of pigs from Near East to Europe, but also later from Europe to Near East, probably isn’t in line with what Dienekes has supported so far (do you remember his theory of the Indo-European hg. J2, of the origin of IE from East Iran etc.?), but with my theory of the Italian Refugium and of the European origin of  IE languages: the centum ones are older that the satem ones etc.

P.S.: When my theory of the Italian (above all) origin of hg. R1b1* and subclades will be demonstrated, I’ll return to my studies of classics.





« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 11:10:56 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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A_Wode
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« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2012, 01:55:28 PM »

I don't think this proves the point. However, I do agree with you that mixture with the host European population likely occurred in France and Italy at a very early time. Consider the Jewish cemetaries in Roman Switzerland for example.

That said, I believe the founder effect was probably a bit younger than the calculated result, and maybe correlated to anti-Jewish upheavals in Norman France and England about 100 years later. Consider the K1a1b1a woman from the Norwich well. Whether or not this is an original north Levantine haplogroup- difficult to predict, but certainly part of the founder effect.

R1b-V88 is most likely true Jewish, or at least true Levantine more than any other haplogroup I have seen. It is the least likely group to be from the host European population due to scarcity. Remember that North Mediterraneans (ie: Spain, Italy, Greece) were also native to the Levant or travelled there thousands of years ago.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2012, 04:31:27 PM »

I don't think this proves the point. However, I do agree with you that mixture with the host European population likely occurred in France and Italy at a very early time. Consider the Jewish cemetaries in Roman Switzerland for example.

That said, I believe the founder effect was probably a bit younger than the calculated result, and maybe correlated to anti-Jewish upheavals in Norman France and England about 100 years later. Consider the K1a1b1a woman from the Norwich well. Whether or not this is an original north Levantine haplogroup- difficult to predict, but certainly part of the founder effect.

R1b-V88 is most likely true Jewish, or at least true Levantine more than any other haplogroup I have seen. It is the least likely group to be from the host European population due to scarcity. Remember that North Mediterraneans (ie: Spain, Italy, Greece) were also native to the Levant or travelled there thousands of years ago.

Dear A_Wode, of course I thank you for your response and I’d like also to know who you actually are. I have written a lot about these themes and they have always been very dangerous for me.
1)   About K1a1b1a I know its diffusion amongst AJ and I am searching from many years some sample in not AJ Europeans. Some cases are controversial: 1 Italian tested by FTDNA whose I wasn’t able to know his/her true origin, some Eastern Europeans not AJ (the last a Catholic I am following on 23andMe) etc. I am K1a1b1e, certainly born in Italy and expanded to the British Isles, and it is a little believable for me that all the subclades of K1a1b1 are European and only K1a1b1a would be born in Middle East. You know that for religious reasons there are some difficulties to test ancient bones in Israel, but those tested around Jerusalem hadn’t any K haplogroup.
2)   I have always written that I have no doubt that the peopling of Iberia and Western Europe probably started from Italy 7500 years ago (see Zilhao et al.), then the diffusion of agriculture started from Italy, but I have always let open the question if those agriculturalists were Italians or came from East (Balkans? etc.), but now I am seeing with some suspect that also Geno 2.0, after that they have always sponsored the Phoenician diffusion all around the Mediterranean etc., now are theorizing a Mediterranean origin of one of the fundamental groups of the world, that is also what you are sponsoring, but the origin would be in Middle East. Why and when?
3)   About R1b1* (now your R-V88+) I have discussed a lot with Sam Vass (but won’t you him?) and I think having demonstrated that like always Jews belong to the same haplotype, recent and probably introgressed from somewhere. I think that there are no reason to think to this haplogroup like a Middle Eastern one: R-V88+ was born from an R-V88-, that Western Europe has in many haplotypes, Jews only in one. You certainly know that I think and have written many times that all the subclades descend from Western European R1b1* with YCAII=18-22 or 18-23, and not from the eastern one with 21-23 or 23-23. Anatole Klyosov has just written this in his very interesting paper “Re-Examining the Out-of-Africa Theory and the origin of Europeoids (Caucasoids). Part 2. SNPs, Haplogroups and Haplotypes in the Y Chromosome of Chimpanzee and Humans” (neither the African origin of modern man is certain, I think very unlikely) by referring to Cruciani “The same is with a population of R1b-V88, which arrived in Africa on its migratory way along the Mediterranean Sea“ (p. 200), but wasn’t Cruciani (who was very kind to answer a letter of mine I published also on this site) to support this (he believed to an origin from Asia, from Middle East by land). Was I.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 03:53:30 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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A_Wode
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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2012, 07:11:04 PM »

I don't think this proves the point. However, I do agree with you that mixture with the host European population likely occurred in France and Italy at a very early time. Consider the Jewish cemetaries in Roman Switzerland for example.

That said, I believe the founder effect was probably a bit younger than the calculated result, and maybe correlated to anti-Jewish upheavals in Norman France and England about 100 years later. Consider the K1a1b1a woman from the Norwich well. Whether or not this is an original north Levantine haplogroup- difficult to predict, but certainly part of the founder effect.

R1b-V88 is most likely true Jewish, or at least true Levantine more than any other haplogroup I have seen. It is the least likely group to be from the host European population due to scarcity. Remember that North Mediterraneans (ie: Spain, Italy, Greece) were also native to the Levant or travelled there thousands of years ago.

Dear A_Wode, of course I thank you for your response and I’d like also to know who you actually are. I have written a lot about these themes and they have always been very dangerous for me.
1)   About K1a1b1a I know its diffusion amongst AJ and I am searching from many years some sample in not AJ Europeans. Some cases are controversial: 1 Italian tested by FTDNA whom I wasn’t able to know his/her true origin, some Eastern Europeans not AJ (the last a Catholic I am following on 23andMe) etc. I am K1a1b1e, certainly born in Italy and expanded to the British Isles, and it is a little believable for me that all the subclades of K1a1b1 are European and only K1a1b1a would be born in Middle East. You know that for religious reasons there are some difficulties to test ancient bones in Israel, but those tested around Jerusalem hadn’t no K haplogroup.
2)   I have always written that I have no doubt that the peopling of Iberia and Western Europe probably started from Italy 7500 years ago (see Zilhao et al.), then the diffusion of agriculture started from Italy, but I have always let open the question if those agriculturalists were Italians or came from East (Balkans? etc.), but now I am seeing with some suspect that also Geno 2.0, after that they have always sponsored the Phoenician diffusion all around the Mediterranean etc., now are theorizing a Mediterranean origin of one of the fundamental groups of the world, that is also what you are sponsoring, but the origin would be in Middle East. Why and when?
3)   About R1b1* (now your R-V88+) I have discussed a lot with Sam Vass (but won’t you him?) and I think having demonstrated that like always Jews belong to the same haplotype, recent and probably introgressed from somewhere. I think that there are no reason to think to this haplogroup like a Middle Eastern one: R-V88+ was born from an R-V88-, that Western Europe has in many haplotypes, Jews only in one. You certainly know that I think and have written many times that all the subclades descend from Western European R1b1* with YCAII=18-22 or 18-23, and not from the eastern one with 21-23 or 23-23. Anatole Klyosov has just written this in his very interesting paper “Re-Examining the Out-of-Africa Theory and the origin of Europeoids (Caucasoids). Part 2. SNPs, Haplogroups and Haplotypes in the Y Chromosome of Chimpanzee and Humans” (neither the African origin of modern man is certain, I think very unlikely) by referring to Cruciani “The same is with a population of R1b-V88, which arrived in Africa on its migratory way along the Mediterranean Sea“ (p. 200), but wasn’t Cruciani (who was very kind to answer a letter of mine I published also on this site) to support this (he believed to an origin from Asia, from Middle East by land). Was I.



I think your short sightedness lies in the fact the world starts in Italy - which it doesn't, but I agree that a south European expansion is certainly plausible. You state that R1b expanded from Italy in 7500, but for some reason they couldn't move east? There are definitely north Mediterranean settlements in the Levant long before the formation of Abrahamic religion - definitely enough time for an early branch of R1b1* to settle there and be considered relatively "indigenous". There is no need for a 1000 AD European convert, especially with the paucity of V88 overall in the world, and the highest concentrations being native to the Levant and Africa among Afro-Asiatic speakers.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 07:11:46 PM by A_Wode » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2012, 11:52:08 PM »

I think your short sightedness lies in the fact the world starts in Italy - which it doesn't, but I agree that a south European expansion is certainly plausible. You state that R1b expanded from Italy in 7500, but for some reason they couldn't move east? There are definitely north Mediterranean settlements in the Levant long before the formation of Abrahamic religion - definitely enough time for an early branch of R1b1* to settle there and be considered relatively "indigenous". There is no need for a 1000 AD European convert, especially with the paucity of V88 overall in the world, and the highest concentrations being native to the Levant and Africa among Afro-Asiatic speakers.

Of course things are understandable only in their history. I don’t think that the world comes from Italy, but if you remember which was the common thought only a few years ago, the European Refugia were three: Franco-Cantabrian, Balkan and Ukrainian ones. Nobody put Italy amongst them. Now the Refugia are at least four, and many put also Italy.
My thinking is only that some hgs (Y and mt) were in Italy then, amongst them also R1b1. Of course these may have migrated to Near East (like many mtDNA: my theory is that also R0a is above all Italian and seems that also FTDNA now thinks this, beyond of course my K).
R1b1, like R-L23 or R-M269. may have migrated to East in many circumstances (with Indo-Europeans and pigs, with the Sea Peoples, with Sardinian mercenaries, during Roman Empire when those lands were cursed by hundreds of thousands of people from Italy etc.)

We will see from the next tests where and when R-V88+ introgressed your ancestors. We ask only that science is free and not manipulated by many kinds of power, and our friend Mike knew this as I have known it in the past.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 04:24:32 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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acekon
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 10:30:51 AM »


R1b-V88 is most likely true Jewish, or at least true Levantine more than any other haplogroup I have seen.


If you truly believe this, you should have no problem filling in the dates for the splits in the R1b  map listed on the web page below.  Please provide additional anecdotal evidence that it was in Levant prior or during the last 3500; thus eliminating the region of Black Sea/ Transcaucasus.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1asterisk/default.aspx
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 10:31:21 AM by acekon » Logged

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A_Wode
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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 08:16:14 PM »


If you truly believe this, you should have no problem filling in the dates for the splits in the R1b  map listed on the web page below.  Please provide additional anecdotal evidence that it was in Levant prior or during the last 3500; thus eliminating the region of Black Sea/ Transcaucasus.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1asterisk/default.aspx


Use the same dates the mathematicians get from the formulas - it really makes no difference. Even considering drift, how could V88+ wind up in Cameroon and Chad among Afro-Asiatic speakers and completely vanish in Europeans and West Asians?

I suggested a West Anatolian origin for R1b, with V88+ being a branch that may have been among the first NW Semitic speakers around Syria deriving from a R1b1* guy who lived nearby. This is not to say it was the only group, but the paucity among other populations is a fairly strong argument in this favour. Certainly stronger than a lot of the conjecture that gets thrown around.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 02:52:56 AM »

Use the same dates the mathematicians get from the formulas - it really makes no difference. Even considering drift, how could V88+ wind up in Cameroon and Chad among Afro-Asiatic speakers and completely vanish in Europeans and West Asians?

I suggested a West Anatolian origin for R1b, with V88+ being a branch that may have been among the first NW Semitic speakers around Syria deriving from a R1b1* guy who lived nearby. This is not to say it was the only group, but the paucity among other populations is a fairly strong argument in this favour. Certainly stronger than a lot of the conjecture that gets thrown around.


It isn’t true that Europe doesn’t have R-V88+: there are many Spaniards, from whom probably derives your Jewish haplotype, there are R-M18-s in Sardinia which presuppose R-V88+. They may have migrated from Italy (as I support from many years) with mtDNA R0a, HV1 etc. after the Younger Dryas. Now we have also the proof of aDNA:

Hunter-gatherers living in Europe during the transition from the late Pleistocene to the Holocene intensified food acquisition by broadening the range of resources exploited to include marine taxa. However, little is known on the nature of this dietary change in the Mediterranean Basin. A key area to investigate this issue is the archipelago of the Ègadi Islands, most of which were connected to Sicily until the early Holocene. The site of Grotta d’Oriente, on the present-day island of Favignana, was occupied by hunter-gatherers when Postglacial environmental changes were taking place (14,000-7,500 cal BP). Here we present the results of AMS radiocarbon dating, palaeogenetic and isotopic analyses undertaken on skeletal remains of the humans buried at Grotta d’Oriente. Analyses of the mitochondrial hypervariable first region of individual Oriente B, which belongs to the HV-1 haplogroup, suggest for the first time on genetic grounds that humans living in Sicily during the early Holocene could have originated from groups that migrated from the Italian Peninsula around the Last Glacial Maximum. Carbon and nitrogen isotope analyses show that the Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic hunter-gatherers of Favignana consumed almost exclusively protein from terrestrial game and that there was only a slight increase in marine food consumption from the late Pleistocene to the early Holocene. This dietary change was similar in scale to that at sites on mainland Sicily and in the rest of the Mediterranean, suggesting that the hunter-gatherers of Grotta d’Oriente did not modify their subsistence strategies specifically to adapt to the progressive isolation of Favignana. The limited development of technologies for intensively exploiting marine resources was probably a consequence both of Mediterranean oligotrophy and of the small effective population size of these increasingly isolated human groups, which made innovation less likely and prevented transmission of fitness-enhancing adaptations.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 03:14:12 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


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acekon
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 03:24:50 AM »

Use the same dates the mathematicians get from the formulas - it really makes no difference.

 I thought it would be nice to have a rough estimate at the very least. However if you do not want to use any time frame that is okay.


Even considering drift, how could V88+ wind up in Cameroon and Chad among Afro-Asiatic speakers and completely vanish in Europeans and West Asians?


How about addressing  basal clades of R1b v-88. Are they found in Chad and Cameroon, or Western Aanatolia, Europe,according to your placement of it's origin?


I suggested a West Anatolian origin for R1b, with V88+ being a branch that may have been among the first NW Semitic speakers around Syria deriving from a R1b1* guy who lived nearby.

Your placement of the origin R1b_ V88 in West Anatolian is problematic, in the sense it starts out of the sphere of traditional non-Semitic speaking region, as demonstrated by this map. Or are you implying that V88 started out as Indo-European language?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Semitic_languages.svg


This is not to say it was the only group, but the paucity among other populations is a fairly strong argument in this favour.


Compare distribution of haplogroup  ydna "I," which supposedly has been around from 25k to 30k. If I'm not mistaken does it not also originate in the same region as your placement of R1b, and yet it is quite sparse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroup_I.png



« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 03:28:36 AM by acekon » Logged

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A_Wode
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 08:52:52 PM »




There is really no need for me to calculate an age, when this has already been done before by professionals and hobbyists alike who enjoy doing this.

Take the recent estimate between 12 -18K years ago for R1b1 (no R1b* or R1* has been found to date! Yes - bring on the *alleged* R-M207 haplotypes recently cited from India as of 11/28/2012)

I never stated V88 arose in Anatolia. Rather that it arose in the Near East/Levant from someone whose ancestors most likely lived in Western Anatolia. Yes, I am disputing an Indian/Iranian origin until I see enough evidence otherwise.

Maliclavelli: I see only 5-6 Spaniards who are V88+. Who is to say they are not converso Jews? I have trouble imagining that all the V88+ came from SW Europe and settled in the Near East/Arabia/Yemen/Chad/Cameroon ..etc very recently, and if ancient, all the more likely that V88+ was around in the Near East at the time of Abrahamic religions more than 3000 years ago.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 08:54:11 PM by A_Wode » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 10:46:53 PM »

I have collected the R-M207 haplotypes. Difficult to say which subclade. Some are R-L23, probably similar to the Iranian/Assyrian/Caucasian ones. It seems there aren't R-M420, which once more lack in India. Only R-M17, a little for being the origin of this haplogroup:

15   17   23   15   15   18   15   11   19   12   10   10   14   11   25   13   12
                                       
14   16   24   15   15   17   16   11   19   12   10   10   14   12   25   12   12
13   17   25   15   17   15   14   11   20   12   11   11   13   10   23   12   12
13   18   25   16   15   14   14   11   20   12   11   11   13   10   23   12   10
14   17   25   15   15   16   14   11   20   12   10   11   13   10   23      12
13   16   23   15   14   17   15   9   21   12   10      13   12   24   15   11
12   16   23   13   15   18   14   10   19   11   10   12   13   11   25   14   11
13   15   22   17   14   20   16   11   19   12   10      14   12   24      
14   17   24   14   15   16   14   11   20   13   10   11   13   11   24   12   12
13   17   25   16   15   15   14   10   20   12   10   11   13   10   23   12   12
13   16   23   16   14   18   16   11   19   12   10   10   14   10   24   12   12
13   17   25   16   16   15   14   11   20   12   10   11   13   10   23   12   10
14   14   23   15   15   17   15   11   19   12   10   10   13   12   24   12   12
13   16   24   14   15   14   14   11   18   12   10   13   13   11   26   13   12   
13   17   24   15   13   16   15   12   19   13   10   13   12   12   23   12   11
14   16   23   15   14   20   16   11   19   10   10   10   14   10   24   12   
14   16   23   15   14   16   14   11   19   11   10   15   12   12   26   12   12
14   20   23   16   14   18   16   11   19   12   10   10   15   12   26   12   11   
14   19   24   15   14   15   14   10   19   12   10   11   14   12   18   12   11
14   17   24   15   15   17   14   11   20   12   11   11   13   10   23   12   11
14   18   22   15   15   17   14   10   19   11   11   11   13   11   20   13   11
12   19   25   16   12   16   14   11   20   12   10   11   13   10   23   12   12
14   16   23   16   14   16   15   12   19   13   11   13   12   12   23   12   12
14   16   22   15   15   16   15   10   18   12   10   11   13   12   21      
13   17   25   15   14   18   15   12   19   11   10   13   12   13   23   12   12
13      23   17      17   15   12   19   12   10      12   11   23   12   12
13   17   22   17   18   16   15   10   19   12   10   11   13   13   21   12   12
14   16   23   16   15   16   15   12   19   13   11   13   12   13   23   12   12
13   18   24   16   16   15   14   11   20   13   10      13   10   23   12   10
14   16   23   17   15   16   15   12   19   13   11      12   13   23   12   11
13   15   24   15   15   19   16   11   19   12   10   10   13   10   24   12   11
14   16   24   15   14   18   16   12   19   11   10   10   13   11   25   12 12   
13   18   24   15   16   14   16   11   19   11   10   10   14   10   26   12   12   
13   18   23   15   14   17   15   11   19   12   10   10   14   10      13   12

About Abraham etc,  read once more Shlomo Sand, Matai ve-ech humza ha-'am ha-Yehudi    and similar books, and you will see that there is a little reliable by a historic point of view. The same about your theories on R-V88+. Anyway the Western European haplotypes are more varied and more numerous than the Jewish ones.
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Maliclavelli


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princenuadha
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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 02:54:00 AM »

Maliclavelli, have you seen this?

 http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/38869-mtDNA-HV-1-from-Mesolithic-Sicily
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 05:13:20 AM »


I thank you for the link, but of course and don’t read that forum. I am interested to scientific questions by a scientific point of view, which needs of theories and proofs. That HV1 was present in Mesolithic Italy (and Europe) is in line with all my theories so far, because it descends from R0, and R0a’b has been found in Sicily, and it is a prejudice that Sicily is near Africa, because during the glaciation it was linked to Italy, as the authors explain very well.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2012, 11:31:29 AM »

There is really no need for me to calculate an age, when this has already been done before by professionals and hobbyists alike who enjoy doing this.

 I'm not asking you to calculate an age, just provide a reference point that we can center on, if you are uncomfortable with citing an age, or sources that is okay. I can understand this is a sensitive subject for some.

Take the recent estimate between 12 -18K years ago for R1b1 (no R1b* or R1* has been found to date! Yes - bring on the *alleged* R-M207 haplotypes recently cited from India as of 11/28/2012)

Do you believe the *alleged* R-M207 can be traced back ultimately  to a split  from Q; if so, where, Levant? Or do you believe QR does not exist?


I never stated V88 arose in Anatolia. Rather that it arose in the Near East/Levant from someone whose ancestors most likely lived in Western Anatolia. Yes, I am disputing an Indian/Iranian origin until I see enough evidence otherwise.

Are you able to share with us the "evidence" for a Near East/Levant origin? For example can you provide a cline in age of  v88 branches from Western Anatolia to parts of Africa, oldest to youngest?

Maliclavelli: I see only 5-6 Spaniards who are V88+. Who is to say they are not converso Jews?


In the grand scheme of things, how many Jewish men actually are V88+, five or six?

« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 11:36:03 AM by acekon » Logged

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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2012, 01:01:58 PM »

A_Wode should know very well the “R1b1 FTDNA Project”. These are the haplotypes:

R1b1c (V88+) Cluster A1: above all European
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster A2: a Puertorican
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster B1: British
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster B2: above all British
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster C0: an Arab, but I wrote it was an invention of VV
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster C1: Ashkenazi, practically an unique recent haplotype
13 23 16 10 12-14 11 12 12 13 13 28 16 9-9 11 12 26 14 19 28 12-12-15-15 11 13 21-23 15 15 18 20 32-34 11 11 12 8 15-16 8 10 11 8 9 11 12 22-22 15 11 12 12 15 8 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 12 12 12
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster C2: Askenazi, but the same recent haplotype above:
13 23 15 10 12-14 11 12 12 14 13 29 18 9-10 11 12 26 14 19 28 12-12-15-15 11 12 21-23 15 15 18 18 32-39 11 11
They could be two linked people introgressed in the Jewish pool
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster C3: Spaniards

The other haplotypes, the African ones, are subclades of R-V88+, then derived, with no meaning as to the origin of the haplogroup.

That the European haplotypes are Jews converted is an hypothesis not demonstrated and probably a desire destined to remain unsatisfied.

Also R-M18 present in Sardinia and descendant of R-V88+ was believed of Phoenician origin, not knowing that Sardinian mercenaries fought in Middle East at least from the 13th century Before Christ (Qadesh, 1284 BC) and probably long before.



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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2012, 05:59:38 PM »

Jewish R1b1 haplotype is differentiated by Arellano’s haplotype (ySearch U4EE8) for:
DYS390=23 against 22
DYS391=10 against 11
DYS385=12-14 against 13-15
H4=12/13 against 11
DYS442=11 against 12

European Bruzas (ySearch QPV7Y) is differentiated from Jewish haplotype for:
DYS390=25 against 23
DYS19=15 against 16
DYS426=12 against 11
DYS389II=+16 against +15
DYS449=29 against 28
DYS438=12 against 11
A10=13 against 12
DYS444=12 against 13
DYS446=15 against 13

Bruzas’ haplotype (which has a link with German Schmidt: ySearch UZHTF) is the link with African R-V88+, for instance this haplotype from Nigeria in SMGF format:
13 25 15 10 13-15 12 12 12 14 13 31 16 9-10 11 12 26 14 19 29 12-12-15-15 11 12 21-23 15 13 12 12 12 12 11 13 23 11 13 12 31 24. Of course African haplotypes have a high variation, being the descendants of one haplotype during some thousands of years, but their origin from Europe is for me certain.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

A_Wode
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2012, 01:02:26 PM »

A_Wode should know very well the “R1b1 FTDNA Project”. These are the haplotypes:

R1b1c (V88+) Cluster A1: above all European
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster A2: a Puertorican
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster B1: British
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster B2: above all British
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster C0: an Arab, but I wrote it was an invention of VV
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster C1: Ashkenazi, practically an unique recent haplotype
13 23 16 10 12-14 11 12 12 13 13 28 16 9-9 11 12 26 14 19 28 12-12-15-15 11 13 21-23 15 15 18 20 32-34 11 11 12 8 15-16 8 10 11 8 9 11 12 22-22 15 11 12 12 15 8 13 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 12 12 12
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster C2: Askenazi, but the same recent haplotype above:
13 23 15 10 12-14 11 12 12 14 13 29 18 9-10 11 12 26 14 19 28 12-12-15-15 11 12 21-23 15 15 18 18 32-39 11 11
They could be two linked people introgressed in the Jewish pool
R1b1c (V88+) Cluster C3: Spaniards

The other haplotypes, the African ones, are subclades of R-V88+, then derived, with no meaning as to the origin of the haplogroup.

That the European haplotypes are Jews converted is an hypothesis not demonstrated and probably a desire destined to remain unsatisfied.

Also R-M18 present in Sardinia and descendant of R-V88+ was believed of Phoenician origin, not knowing that Sardinian mercenaries fought in Middle East at least from the 13th century Before Christ (Qadesh, 1284 BC) and probably long before.

Maliclavelli:

A1 (L389+) are all Jewish members.
B1 is 1 single English/Scottish individual/clan. Means very little. There were Jews in England/Scotland can't base anything on this one person.
B2 - These are Germans. I don't know if they claim to be Jewish or not, but it's a rare branch nonetheless.

Difficult to say with the Spaniard group, I would not rule Jewish origin out.
I also haven't seen any Sardinian V88+ ...
I am not saying a European/Anatolian origin was not possible 5000 years ago. I am stating it's unlikely they are recent European introgression.
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A_Wode
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2012, 01:07:01 PM »


In the grand scheme of things, how many Jewish men actually are V88+, five or six?

About 20, but probably more if I look.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 01:07:23 PM by A_Wode » Logged
acekon
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2012, 01:51:01 PM »

About 20, but probably more if I look.

There are not to many places on the entire planet that would support the following odd ball snp's intersecting, clustering, and dispersal; and I really doubt that Palestine would be one of the them.

1]Q1b1a-M378+L245+L315+
2]R1a-Z93+
3]G2b-M377+
4]R1b-V88
5]R1b-Z2105+L277+/L584+

The above cluster likely supports or contributes to this hypotheses.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.1092
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 02:34:02 PM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2012, 02:00:26 PM »

Maliclavelli:
A1 (L389+) are all Jewish members.

_R1b1* (L389+) Cluster A1
N5556 Humphreys William James Humphreys bn 1837 Tn Unknown Origin R1b1
11 24 15 11 13-14 12 13 12 13 13 30 14 9-9 11 11 26 15 18 30 14-14-14-16                                                                                                                       
67723 Humphries Samuel Humphries (b. about 1760, location unknown) Unknown Origin R1b1
11 24 15 11 13-14 12 13 12 13 13 30 14 9-9 11 11 26 15 18 30 14-14-14-16 10 11 18-23 14 16 19 16 34-34 15 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 9 12 19-21 17 10 12 12 13 8 12 25 21 13 11 11 13 12 11 12 12 34 15 9 15 11 28 27 19 13 10 12 12 11 9 12 11 10 11 11 32 12 12 24 13 11 10 17 15 17 13 21 16 11 15 25 12 24 17 10 14 18 9 11 11
N2813 Fogel   Poland R1b1
13 23 14 11 12-13 12 13 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                  N3329 Zelner   Russian Federation R1b1
13 23 14 11 12-13 12 13 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                 183412 Pasman   Russian Federation R1b1
13 23 14 11 12-13 12 13 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                         
262 Lipson   Ukraine R1b1
13 23 14 11 12-13 12 13 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                 N13771 Bell Leib Belostotsky, b.c. 1840, Kiev Gubernia,Ukraine Ukraine R1b1
13 23 14 11 12-13 12 13 12 13 13 29 15 9-9 11 11 25 15 18 28 13-14-14-16 11 11 18-23 15 17 18 15 36-40 14 11                                                           
97835 Ofen Samuel (Bassan) Ofen, b. ±1660 Budapest Hungary R1b1
13 23 14 11 12-13 12 13 12 13 13 29 15 9-9 11 11 25 15 18 28 13-14-14-16 11 11 18-23 15 17 20 15 36-39 14 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 19-21 16 10 12 12 12 8 11 27 21 14 11 11 13 13 11 12 11 33 15 9 15 11 28 27 19 13 10 12 12 11 9 12 11 10 11 11 32 12 13 24 14 10 10 18 15 20 13 22 16 11 15 25 12 24 17 10 14 16 9 12 11
110387 Sherman HERMAN SHERMAN b.c. 1869, Dubno, Russia Russian Federation R1b1
13 23 14 11 12-13 12 13 12 13 13 29 15 9-9 11 11 25 15 18 28 13-14-14-16 11 11 18-23 15 17 20 15 36-40 14 11 11 8 15-16 8 9 10 8 10 10 12 19-21 16 10 12 12 12 8 11 27 21 14 11 11 13 12 11 12 11                                                                                       
N16605 Savage Abraham Shpritz, Minsk, Russia Belarus R1b1
13 23 14 11 12-13 12 13 12 13 13 29 15 9-9 11 11 25 15 18 28 13-14-14-16 11 11 18-23 15 17 20 16 36-40 14 11 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 19-21 16 10 12 12 12 8 11 27 21 14 11 11 13 13 11 12 11                                                                                         
N83832 Demao DeMao Italy R1b1
13 24 16 11 12-14 12 13 12 13 13 29 14 9-9 11 11 25 15 18 28 14-14-14-14 11 11 18-22 15 16 17 16 36-36 14 8 11 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 19-21 15 10 12 12 14 8 12 24 21 14 11 11 13 12 11 12 13


It doesn’t seem that Cluster A1 are all Jews. The Humphreys are a haplotype not present in any Jews. All the other are Jews, in fact they are an unique haplotype and they presuppose an unique recent ancestor. DeMao, whose surname is De Maio, is from Italian origin, was put in this clade after I wrote many letters to VV, he is another different clade not present in any Jew, and Italy has other samples, like Toniolo, I put on ySearch from SMGF, which hasn’t released all his values yet, and he has YCAII=18-22, different from all the other clades which have 18-23. I have other R-V88- from Italy not registered yet, because not tested from FTDNA.

Sardinia has many R-M18+., which presuppose R-V88+. We are waiting this last results from Geno 2.0, and I think that many surprises will come from Italy. Hope that results are released and we all will be able to judge them.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Diana
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2012, 04:52:06 PM »

Hello,

  Looks like this was posted some time ago but it is the first time that I am seeing it regarding Neandertals and the Tuscans from the 1k genomes project,http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/neandertals/neandertal_dna/1000-genomes-introgression-among-populations-2012.html
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R1b1a2a1a1b3 U152+ Z56+ Z144/Z145/Z146+ P312+ U106- M228.2- M160- M126- L4- L21- L2- L196- L176.2- DYS492=14 Roma, Italia.
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