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Author Topic: Scythian article (mt DNA)  (Read 773 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« on: November 15, 2012, 01:25:49 PM »

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2012/11/scythian-skeletons.html
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 01:28:02 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
NealtheRed
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« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2012, 01:31:24 PM »


Very cool, Alan. Thank you posting this!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2012, 01:36:06 PM »

Doesnt tell us about the male lineages (which might have been more uniform) but it does show that local women were taken.  Quite strange because that must have made their overall DNA and physical appearance very different between the Asian and European Scythians.  It also indicates that the Scythian halves  had blended were 50% east Asiatic when by the time they rolled into history. They must have phenotypically looked part asian.  This has often puzzled me about the Tarim mummies too.  They are often portrayed as rather north European (this is to some degree disputed) but yet most of their mtDNA was asian.  
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 08:20:11 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2012, 02:13:12 PM »

As someone wrote that these haplotypes (also those thought of Western European origin) did come from Central Asia from ancient times and not from Europe, I wrote this on eng.molgen and Anthrogenica:


(Mercedes Gonzalez-Ruiz et al., Tracing the Origin of the East-West Population Admixture in the Altai Region (Central Asia), PLoS ONE 7 (11).

On SMGF there are 18 haplotype K with 16093C 16224C 16311C 16319A 16519C.
One is from Palestine, the other above all from the British Isles. It is a little bit believable that this K comes from East (Europe, Caucasus, etc.).

Sigrist from Switzerland has the mutations:
16093C 16224C 16311C 16319A 16519C 073G 152C 199C 263G 309.1C 315,1C 524.1A 524.1C
14 British out of 18 descend from the same line (Stopes) with 199T (not mutated).

The haplotype is without any doubt North–Western European in its origin seen the presence there of close haplotypes.

It seems to be hg. K1b1a without 16463G.

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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

glentane
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 08:44:08 AM »

 This has often puzzled me about the Tarim mummies too.  They are often portrayed as rather north European (this is to some degree disputed) but yet most of their mtDNA was asian.  
When I first saw photos of them I must admit I thought "Blimey. Dead Russians. There's a turn-up for the books."
('Russians' as in, citizens of the former CCCP, that is: disclosure; FTDNA has me down as '100% Orcadian'. I detest the place (small islands creep me out) and have absolutely no family connection. I suppose they mean "NorthWest European"? Just to show the subjective filter I'm looking at the Tarim people through).

Just shows how tricky and misleading the (non-)linkages between genetics, phenotype, culture and languages are, and I prefer to run away screaming incoherently whenever such factors are foisted on the archaeology as a done deal. Keep them in their own clearly defined boxes, and they'll be fine, and wonderfully useful, but any perceived intersections are going to have to be very harshly scrutinised.
The current data coverage and quality is going to have to improve a heck of a lot before I'll touch any of that stuff with a bargepole, outside of wild blue-sky speculation for its own sake. Usually after exceeding the government's recommended daily number of units.

These studies are cool; Oetzi, permafrosted graves, mummies, and if I was dictator of the world they'd be mandatory for all diggers who have to deal with these very rare discoveries.
Some hint as to the related material culture(s), dating material, DNA, and a desiccated, distorted and probably weirdly discoloured representative of the group's appearance, all in one neat gift-wrapped box? Bargain!
If only they'd been buried "with letters in their pockets" as either Mair or Mallory said ages ago.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 08:52:35 AM by glentane » Logged
A.D.
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2012, 12:22:30 PM »

I posted on the 'Celts in the Tarim basin area' thread about post Alexanderian empires. This mixing does seem in keeping with his ideas and may well have been continued or spread due to practicality rather than ideology. Just reading whats said on these threads it felt contrived. As I siad just a thought I'm not an expert by any means.
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