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Mike Walsh
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« on: November 08, 2012, 11:39:41 PM »

I recently was added as a co-admin to the "R1b and Subcllades" project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/

I volunteered for this because I want to see broader and deeper testing of R1b people with the hope of better understanding where we started out and how we got to where we are. I'm interested both from a broad sense but also at a specific, granular sense. In other words, I'd also like to see a few more people shake out of the consumer testing that fit in my deep ancestry's younger branches, and would like to see that for everybody, for that matter.

I think it would be of great benefit to see the vast R1b predicted group of people in FTDNA's database conduct deeper testing to their terminal SNP and to at least 67 markers. I'd also like to "catch" the newbies from projects like the National Genographic Project to get them into public projects to share their results and test more deeply.

All of that being said, the "R1b and Subclades" project looks like a potential starting point. R1b is way too big and complex for one project so I've been proposing turning it into a "gateway" project with a key capability being that project administrators will add people to the appropriate subclade projects (U152, U106, etc.) automatically. FTDNA has told me this is fine. We just need to let people know.

As a first step, we've updated the "About your Group" Background, Goals and Results pages of the project. I'd like to get your feedback on it. Part of it is written by others and I need to respect that but I can probably provide some influence. A key point for the project is not to get too detailed and try to be all things to all people. The subclades projects and their sub-subprojects (i.e. L21 has M222, DF49, DF41, L513, DF21, Z253, Z255/L159.3, L226, etc.) are many and constantly evolving so we can't hope at the R1b project level to try to get down to those levels.

A second step will be a bulk mail notice to all of the R1b project members to let them know the change of the project to this "gateway" approach and intent to add members to the major subclade projects.

A third step is to come up with some simple decision tree for recommending SNP testing to the unawashed. To be simple, Geno 2.0 is the answer, but I think there are cases where targetting a terminal type SNP is warranted. I hate the whole idea of SNP prediction, but intelligent evaluation for test planning is needed. I hope to use the R1b YDNA Yahoo group as a place where a newbie R1b person can check in and get some advice (and encouragement) on testing. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/  I don't want it to be a philosophical discussion blog or anything like that. Just a place to check the status of the R1b project and talk to project administrators.

Anyway, just looking for feedback. I'll ask the folks here and we'll see about edits, etc. and within a week or so I'll start being more public and promotional.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 12:07:43 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2012, 03:19:35 AM »

Congratulations Mike. Great news for the R1b community. Hopefully the additional committment won't have a negative effect on your existing excellent contribution. It really is greatly appreciated by all of us who depend on your input and your ''products''.

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df.reynolds
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2012, 05:56:24 AM »

Great idea, Mike. I plan on reviewing the verbiage this weekend when I have more time (and am a little more alert...).

In the specific case of L21, do you plan on just adding to the L21 project, or will you go down one more level to the L513, DF21, Z253, etc. projects? I got the impression you were looking at adding to the L21 project only, but given that the L21 project is in many ways also a large "holding" project (similar to the R1b project itself), I'll lobby to go down one more level. :)

Just out of curiosity I counted how many entries in the R1b project are DF21+, or positive for one of the SNPs under DF21, and there are 35; 33 are currently in the DF21 project; two are not, 42087 (Via) and 17643 (Kirikpatrick).

Regards,
david

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2012, 09:15:02 AM »

Great idea, Mike. I plan on reviewing the verbiage this weekend when I have more time (and am a little more alert...).

In the specific case of L21, do you plan on just adding to the L21 project, or will you go down one more level to the L513, DF21, Z253, etc. projects? I got the impression you were looking at adding to the L21 project only, but given that the L21 project is in many ways also a large "holding" project (similar to the R1b project itself), I'll lobby to go down one more level. :)

Just out of curiosity I counted how many entries in the R1b project are DF21+, or positive for one of the SNPs under DF21, and there are 35; 33 are currently in the DF21 project; two are not, 42087 (Via) and 17643 (Kirikpatrick).

Regards,
david

I can only commit to a very high level, in other words just the very large or very early branching subclade projects. However, we'll work on it. I don't want to bypass anybody so if we would go to a lower level, I wouldn't skip an intermediary level. For instance, an L21+ guy would go to both the P312 and L21 projects. P312 would not be skipped. I'll have to admit that is because I don't want to get in the middle of any conflicts.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2012, 09:26:06 AM »

Congratulations Mike. Great news for the R1b community. Hopefully the additional committment won't have a negative effect on your existing excellent contribution. It really is greatly appreciated by all of us who depend on your input and your ''products''.
Thank you, Autochthon. There are many that have contributed their time. I'm just excited about the progress we've made and I can see great potential. There is a certain inertia that has to be overcome on these things and if I can help get the ball rolling that's all good.

I want to offer people who upgrade to 67 markers a reason to other than some statements of logic. I was hoping to create a "permanent" terminal SNP test recommender but we are not really able to do that effectively except in a few cases. I am now thinking about a combined "all R1b" file but that gets so big that causes problems.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 01:12:49 AM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 09:48:29 PM »

Great idea, Mike. I plan on reviewing the verbiage this weekend when I have more time (and am a little more alert...).

In the specific case of L21, do you plan on just adding to the L21 project, or will you go down one more level to the L513, DF21, Z253, etc. projects? I got the impression you were looking at adding to the L21 project only, but given that the L21 project is in many ways also a large "holding" project (similar to the R1b project itself), I'll lobby to go down one more level. :)

Just out of curiosity I counted how many entries in the R1b project are DF21+, or positive for one of the SNPs under DF21, and there are 35; 33 are currently in the DF21 project; two are not, 42087 (Via) and 17643 (Kirikpatrick).

Regards,
david



I sent Via an email and asked him to join the R-DF21 and Subclades Project (hope Mike didn't already send him one), since he's in the R-L21 Plus Project.

Kit 17643 is not in the R-L21 Plus Project, so I couldn't help with him.
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df.reynolds
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 02:53:01 AM »

Great idea, Mike. I plan on reviewing the verbiage this weekend when I have more time (and am a little more alert...).

In the specific case of L21, do you plan on just adding to the L21 project, or will you go down one more level to the L513, DF21, Z253, etc. projects? I got the impression you were looking at adding to the L21 project only, but given that the L21 project is in many ways also a large "holding" project (similar to the R1b project itself), I'll lobby to go down one more level. :)

Just out of curiosity I counted how many entries in the R1b project are DF21+, or positive for one of the SNPs under DF21, and there are 35; 33 are currently in the DF21 project; two are not, 42087 (Via) and 17643 (Kirikpatrick).

Regards,
david



I sent Via an email and asked him to join the R-DF21 and Subclades Project (hope Mike didn't already send him one), since he's in the R-L21 Plus Project.

Kit 17643 is not in the R-L21 Plus Project, so I couldn't help with him.

Thanks, Via has joined the DF21 project.

--david
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 05:13:15 AM »

Mike,

The background notes of the project suggest you will only include data for members who choose to join the project, presumably to protect individual privacy. Will you be looking at including FTDNA members who have joined other projects who have in effect chosen to go public? As we have seen with the growth of your spreadsheet for the Yahoo R-L21 project, his would enable you to greatly increase the size of the R1b database.
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saje
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2012, 07:28:06 PM »

I was contacted by an administrator of the Polish Project.  He suggested I test for Z2105, and if positive I should join this project-  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new.  I'm awaiting results, and will test further downstream as I'm looking for information from my paternal side. 

I do not see Z2105 on the R1B Haplo-tree (m269) on the FamilyTreeDna website.  Can anyone tell me where this SNP lives?

I am looking into joining your project if it can help in my search and the community. 

I recently was added as a co-admin to the "R1b and Subcllades" project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/

I volunteered for this because I want to see broader and deeper testing of R1b people with the hope of better understanding where we started out and how we got to where we are. I'm interested both from a broad sense but also at a specific, granular sense. In other words, I'd also like to see a few more people shake out of the consumer testing that fit in my deep ancestry's younger branches, and would like to see that for everybody, for that matter.

I think it would be of great benefit to see the vast R1b predicted group of people in FTDNA's database conduct deeper testing to their terminal SNP and to at least 67 markers. I'd also like to "catch" the newbies from projects like the National Genographic Project to get them into public projects to share their results and test more deeply.

All of that being said, the "R1b and Subclades" project looks like a potential starting point. R1b is way too big and complex for one project so I've been proposing turning it into a "gateway" project with a key capability being that project administrators will add people to the appropriate subclade projects (U152, U106, etc.) automatically. FTDNA has told me this is fine. We just need to let people know.

As a first step, we've updated the "About your Group" Background, Goals and Results pages of the project. I'd like to get your feedback on it. Part of it is written by others and I need to respect that but I can probably provide some influence. A key point for the project is not to get too detailed and try to be all things to all people. The subclades projects and their sub-subprojects (i.e. L21 has M222, DF49, DF41, L513, DF21, Z253, Z255/L159.3, L226, etc.) are many and constantly evolving so we can't hope at the R1b project level to try to get down to those levels.

A second step will be a bulk mail notice to all of the R1b project members to let them know the change of the project to this "gateway" approach and intent to add members to the major subclade projects.

A third step is to come up with some simple decision tree for recommending SNP testing to the unawashed. To be simple, Geno 2.0 is the answer, but I think there are cases where targetting a terminal type SNP is warranted. I hate the whole idea of SNP prediction, but intelligent evaluation for test planning is needed. I hope to use the R1b YDNA Yahoo group as a place where a newbie R1b person can check in and get some advice (and encouragement) on testing. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/  I don't want it to be a philosophical discussion blog or anything like that. Just a place to check the status of the R1b project and talk to project administrators.

Anyway, just looking for feedback. I'll ask the folks here and we'll see about edits, etc. and within a week or so I'll start being more public and promotional.

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2012, 05:53:28 PM »

Off topic but I took a look in at rootsweb there.  Its like travelling back in time with people talking about WAMH and R1b ice age Franco-Cantabrian devotees still there.  Some very good people still post there but it really feels like a trip back to 2007 or the like. 
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gtc
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2012, 10:16:12 PM »

Off topic but I took a look in at rootsweb there.  Its like travelling back in time with people talking about WAMH and R1b ice age Franco-Cantabrian devotees still there.  Some very good people still post there but it really feels like a trip back to 2007 or the like. 

Since you have raised it, a while back I was reading some Rootsweb archives from way back and what struck me was how prescient some of those guys were, especially Ken Nordtvedt, who were working with a comparatively tiny base of STRs and SNPs.

I came away thinking about "on the shoulders of giants".
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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
Heber
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2012, 08:18:04 AM »

Off topic but I took a look in at rootsweb there.  Its like travelling back in time with people talking about WAMH and R1b ice age Franco-Cantabrian devotees still there.  Some very good people still post there but it really feels like a trip back to 2007 or the like. 

Since you have raised it, a while back I was reading some Rootsweb archives from way back and what struck me was how prescient some of those guys were, especially Ken Nordtvedt, who were working with a comparatively tiny base of STRs and SNPs.

I came away thinking about "on the shoulders of giants".

Some of the pioneers in this sector such as Oppinheimer, Sykes, Wells etc get a hard time for what they published 5 - 10 years ago. However they did have the guts to put a stake in the ground. I would not be in this hobby if it were not for their inspiration. I work in the ICT industry for the past 30 years and we reinvent ourselves every two years (Moores Law). The world of Genomics is experiencing (Moores Law x 5) so it is not surprising that positions evolve. And yes Alan, I agree they should adapt their positions as new evidence becomes available.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



Arch Y.
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 12:17:38 AM »

I recently was added as a co-admin to the "R1b and Subcllades" project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/

I volunteered for this because I want to see broader and deeper testing of R1b people with the hope of better understanding where we started out and how we got to where we are. I'm interested both from a broad sense but also at a specific, granular sense. In other words, I'd also like to see a few more people shake out of the consumer testing that fit in my deep ancestry's younger branches, and would like to see that for everybody, for that matter.

I think it would be of great benefit to see the vast R1b predicted group of people in FTDNA's database conduct deeper testing to their terminal SNP and to at least 67 markers. I'd also like to "catch" the newbies from projects like the National Genographic Project to get them into public projects to share their results and test more deeply.

All of that being said, the "R1b and Subclades" project looks like a potential starting point. R1b is way too big and complex for one project so I've been proposing turning it into a "gateway" project with a key capability being that project administrators will add people to the appropriate subclade projects (U152, U106, etc.) automatically. FTDNA has told me this is fine. We just need to let people know.

As a first step, we've updated the "About your Group" Background, Goals and Results pages of the project. I'd like to get your feedback on it. Part of it is written by others and I need to respect that but I can probably provide some influence. A key point for the project is not to get too detailed and try to be all things to all people. The subclades projects and their sub-subprojects (i.e. L21 has M222, DF49, DF41, L513, DF21, Z253, Z255/L159.3, L226, etc.) are many and constantly evolving so we can't hope at the R1b project level to try to get down to those levels.

A second step will be a bulk mail notice to all of the R1b project members to let them know the change of the project to this "gateway" approach and intent to add members to the major subclade projects.

A third step is to come up with some simple decision tree for recommending SNP testing to the unawashed. To be simple, Geno 2.0 is the answer, but I think there are cases where targetting a terminal type SNP is warranted. I hate the whole idea of SNP prediction, but intelligent evaluation for test planning is needed. I hope to use the R1b YDNA Yahoo group as a place where a newbie R1b person can check in and get some advice (and encouragement) on testing. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/  I don't want it to be a philosophical discussion blog or anything like that. Just a place to check the status of the R1b project and talk to project administrators.

Anyway, just looking for feedback. I'll ask the folks here and we'll see about edits, etc. and within a week or so I'll start being more public and promotional.


That's a good approach... like the idea.

Arch
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Heber
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 04:46:07 AM »

I recently was added as a co-admin to the "R1b and Subcllades" project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/

I volunteered for this because I want to see broader and deeper testing of R1b people with the hope of better understanding where we started out and how we got to where we are. I'm interested both from a broad sense but also at a specific, granular sense. In other words, I'd also like to see a few more people shake out of the consumer testing that fit in my deep ancestry's younger branches, and would like to see that for everybody, for that matter.

I think it would be of great benefit to see the vast R1b predicted group of people in FTDNA's database conduct deeper testing to their terminal SNP and to at least 67 markers. I'd also like to "catch" the newbies from projects like the National Genographic Project to get them into public projects to share their results and test more deeply.

All of that being said, the "R1b and Subclades" project looks like a potential starting point. R1b is way too big and complex for one project so I've been proposing turning it into a "gateway" project with a key capability being that project administrators will add people to the appropriate subclade projects (U152, U106, etc.) automatically. FTDNA has told me this is fine. We just need to let people know.

As a first step, we've updated the "About your Group" Background, Goals and Results pages of the project. I'd like to get your feedback on it. Part of it is written by others and I need to respect that but I can probably provide some influence. A key point for the project is not to get too detailed and try to be all things to all people. The subclades projects and their sub-subprojects (i.e. L21 has M222, DF49, DF41, L513, DF21, Z253, Z255/L159.3, L226, etc.) are many and constantly evolving so we can't hope at the R1b project level to try to get down to those levels.

A second step will be a bulk mail notice to all of the R1b project members to let them know the change of the project to this "gateway" approach and intent to add members to the major subclade projects.

A third step is to come up with some simple decision tree for recommending SNP testing to the unawashed. To be simple, Geno 2.0 is the answer, but I think there are cases where targetting a terminal type SNP is warranted. I hate the whole idea of SNP prediction, but intelligent evaluation for test planning is needed. I hope to use the R1b YDNA Yahoo group as a place where a newbie R1b person can check in and get some advice (and encouragement) on testing. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-YDNA/  I don't want it to be a philosophical discussion blog or anything like that. Just a place to check the status of the R1b project and talk to project administrators.

Anyway, just looking for feedback. I'll ask the folks here and we'll see about edits, etc. and within a week or so I'll start being more public and promotional.


That's a good approach... like the idea.

Arch

Mike,
It is a great idea. I would not restrict it to STRs, but include the SNPs. Maybe not the full 130K of Geno 2.0, but perhaps the 6K+ of the current rapidly expanding Y tree of the more manageable 170+ in the current R1b branch.
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



gtc
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 05:23:41 PM »

Mike,
It is a great idea. I would not restrict it to STRs, but include the SNPs. Maybe not the full 130K of Geno 2.0, but perhaps the 6K+ of the current rapidly expanding Y tree of the more manageable 170+ in the current R1b branch.

Seems Mike has gone from this place.
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Y-DNA: R1b-Z12* (R1b1a2a1a1a3b2b1a1a1) GGG-GF Ireland (roots reportedly Anglo-Norman)
mtDNA: I3b (FMS) Maternal lines Irish
OConnor
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2012, 04:48:02 PM »

power is not always a happy thing.

Maybe he will decide to post here again?

I think the only reason most are posting here is because we followed Stevo from DNA Forums.org, after he left that forum. Rich has been a driving force in my opinion, helping to unravell many aspects of L21. I have seen posts by Rich which, had they have been by me, I would have been suspended or worse. I may even get permanently banned from here for this posting. I was threatened with permanent bandishment if I posted off-topic.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 05:05:25 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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