World Families Forums - Paper on pigmentation of Irish, Poles, Italians and Portuguese

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 31, 2014, 09:45:53 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Paper on pigmentation of Irish, Poles, Italians and Portuguese
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Paper on pigmentation of Irish, Poles, Italians and Portuguese  (Read 1429 times)
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« on: November 05, 2012, 07:07:40 PM »

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/gwas-study-of-pigmentation-in-four.html

Interesting paper.  Shows sexual dimophism is strong among the Irish with men having paler skin but darker hair but women having less pale skin but significantly lighter hair.  I presume the study has allowed for false tan/tan beds and hair dye in some sort of way!  Personally I had thought that as children both sexes in Ireland are similar in colouring but the women had fairer hair and skin as adults.  Slightly surprised that the men came in paler.  Its interesting too because Coon also noted that the sexual dimorphism in skull/facial shape between men and women in the Irish/Brunn group was unusually strong.  I have heard it commented more than once before that Irish men and women look surprisingly different.  

« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 07:47:40 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2012, 07:18:51 PM »

As my mother used to say, "There's white and then there's Irish white".
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2012, 07:46:19 PM »

As my mother used to say, "There's white and then there's Irish white".

Also known as blue skin that tans to white in extreme heat. 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 07:47:11 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
NealtheRed
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 930


« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2012, 07:54:09 PM »

As my mother used to say, "There's white and then there's Irish white".

I must say, that is the quote of the week, and describes me well.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2012, 07:56:11 PM »

As my mother used to say, "There's white and then there's Irish white".

Also known as blue skin that tans to white in extreme heat.  

Yea, that about sums up most of my family  :)

Mostly, my family doesn't match up with the above. My paternal grandmother was from Derry and did have a round face, but she had dark hair and dark eyes. Her family name was Quinn and they were mostly overweight. My maternal grandfather was from Belfast and had sandy hair, blue eyes and a narrow face. His brother's had more oval faces and one had dark hair and the other sandy. Both brothers also had blue eyes. They were Scots-Irish with Protestant and Catholic ancestry. Erskine and McDonald.

My Dad was from Wexford, and as I've often described, narrow face, jet black hair and eyes as black as coal. He was very pale on the body but his face and bald head could get a reddish brown with freckles.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 08:01:11 PM by eochaidh » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2012, 08:00:42 PM »

As my mother used to say, "There's white and then there's Irish white".

I must say, that is the quote of the week, and describes me well.
She was a very funny and very pale woman. Light blue eyes and light blue skin :)
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2012, 08:02:16 PM »

This is the actual paper

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0048294?imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0048294.t001

Interesting that the most R1b rich country in the world comes out lighter in skin, eyes and even hair compared to the most R1a rich country in the world.  I know they are not connected directly but this is often implied on the web.  It also questions the idea that the higher the Lithuanian component the more northern European the phenotype which is again often implied on the web.  It is also further evidence IMO that the Atlantic-Med autosomal cluster of some studies is surely a mixture of native western hunters and Neolithic farmers typical of parts of western Europe rather than a single group.  To be honest the distribution of this component doesnt make any sense if it is a Neolithic component as it just doesnt respect the main Neolithic division in western Europe.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 08:06:47 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 08:28:23 PM »

My own complexion is ruddy. Same for my youngest brother. We turn fiery red very easily. I often got accused of blushing when I was a kid when I wasn't blushing, and that only made me really blush.
Logged

eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2012, 08:36:06 PM »

This is the actual paper

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0048294?imageURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0048294.t001

Interesting that the most R1b rich country in the world comes out lighter in skin, eyes and even hair compared to the most R1a rich country in the world.  I know they are not connected directly but this is often implied on the web.  It also questions the idea that the higher the Lithuanian component the more northern European the phenotype which is again often implied on the web.  It is also further evidence IMO that the Atlantic-Med autosomal cluster of some studies is surely a mixture of native western hunters and Neolithic farmers typical of parts of western Europe rather than a single group.  To be honest the distribution of this component doesnt make any sense if it is a Neolithic component as it just doesnt respect the main Neolithic division in western Europe.

Obviously the overwhelming amount of R1b doesn't effect the coloring of the Irish. Yet there are many in my family, and others, who have dark hair and dark eyes. They still seem to have pale skin, but they aren't fair of hair or eyes.

Where does the dark hair/dark eye combo come from? In autosomal runs, what would most likely represent R1b? East Med? Caucasus? Anatolia? Med? Atlantic Med? What?
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
IALEM
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 267


« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2012, 02:15:11 PM »

I have very light blue eyes (incidentally, blue eyes come in many tones, but I have often noticed that they are intense blue in northern countries, while in Spain, and especially in the Basque country, they are quite frequently very light blue). I have light fair skin and brown hair (when I was a child it was very fair, almost white, now it is turning white again fast, must be I am getting younger...)
Now, my political brother is also R1b, he has dark hair, dark eyes and a rather dark skin, easily tanned.
Is there really a correlation between phenotype and Y haplogroups? I doubt it.
Logged

Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 10:29:14 AM »

I see this study has not appeared on Forum Biodiversity yet
Logged
inver2b1
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 99


« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2012, 10:45:59 AM »

I have very light blue eyes (incidentally, blue eyes come in many tones, but I have often noticed that they are intense blue in northern countries, while in Spain, and especially in the Basque country, they are quite frequently very light blue). I have light fair skin and brown hair (when I was a child it was very fair, almost white, now it is turning white again fast, must be I am getting younger...)
Now, my political brother is also R1b, he has dark hair, dark eyes and a rather dark skin, easily tanned.
Is there really a correlation between phenotype and Y haplogroups? I doubt it.

Seriously doubt it, I'm IL126 a subgroup of M223. I'm Irish and have brown eyes and black hair, I tan easily enough but would burn more easily if I was exposed to strong sun longer than an hour. One of my brothers have light brown hair, brown eyes and tans very easily and rarely burns.
Two brothers have blue eyes, don't tan easily and one of them has very dark black hair and the other brown.
I think you'll find there's enough variation in families even that makes generalisations tricky.
Logged

I-L126
H3
eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 12:22:08 PM »

I have very light blue eyes (incidentally, blue eyes come in many tones, but I have often noticed that they are intense blue in northern countries, while in Spain, and especially in the Basque country, they are quite frequently very light blue). I have light fair skin and brown hair (when I was a child it was very fair, almost white, now it is turning white again fast, must be I am getting younger...)
Now, my political brother is also R1b, he has dark hair, dark eyes and a rather dark skin, easily tanned.
Is there really a correlation between phenotype and Y haplogroups? I doubt it.

Seriously doubt it, I'm IL126 a subgroup of M223. I'm Irish and have brown eyes and black hair, I tan easily enough but would burn more easily if I was exposed to strong sun longer than an hour. One of my brothers have light brown hair, brown eyes and tans very easily and rarely burns.
Two brothers have blue eyes, don't tan easily and one of them has very dark black hair and the other brown.
I think you'll find there's enough variation in families even that makes generalisations tricky.

I agree. Your family variations are similar to my family in Ireland. We only have one red head that I know of, some sandy haired, many dark brown and a few jet black. We also have eyes of different blue shades all the way to black as coal. I can tan in a booth, but burn and freckle in the sun for some reason. Before I started in the booth people laughed at how white I was!
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
IALEM
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 267


« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 02:32:18 PM »

In my experience tanning can be "learnt" by the body. I mean, I used to play golf in sunny SE Spain every day and in the end after 14 years I was able to tan regularly (I got some nasty skin problems though). Some other northern european people, including English and Irish, after years of playing, experienced the same.
Logged

Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2012, 09:05:00 PM »

In my experience tanning can be "learnt" by the body. I mean, I used to play golf in sunny SE Spain every day and in the end after 14 years I was able to tan regularly (I got some nasty skin problems though). Some other northern european people, including English and Irish, after years of playing, experienced the same.

However, in this study I understand they used the inner upper arm (I suppose near the armpits) with the idea to see what skin tone is like on unexposed skin to find the baseline colour of skin regardless of climate. 
Logged
eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2012, 09:49:03 PM »

In my experience tanning can be "learnt" by the body. I mean, I used to play golf in sunny SE Spain every day and in the end after 14 years I was able to tan regularly (I got some nasty skin problems though). Some other northern european people, including English and Irish, after years of playing, experienced the same.

However, in this study I understand they used the inner upper arm (I suppose near the armpits) with the idea to see what skin tone is like on unexposed skin to find the baseline colour of skin regardless of climate. 

Okay then, in that case, my whole family would rate "shocking Irish white".
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 09:50:15 PM »

In my experience tanning can be "learnt" by the body. I mean, I used to play golf in sunny SE Spain every day and in the end after 14 years I was able to tan regularly (I got some nasty skin problems though). Some other northern european people, including English and Irish, after years of playing, experienced the same.

However, in this study I understand they used the inner upper arm (I suppose near the armpits) with the idea to see what skin tone is like on unexposed skin to find the baseline colour of skin regardless of climate. 

Okay then, in that case, my whole family would rate "shocking Irish white".

Me too. Add to that the fact that very near that spot I liberally apply Irish Spring deodorant! ;-)

Logged

A.D.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310


« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2012, 11:47:53 PM »

I got blue eyes, brown hair and  near transparant skin,  no freckles I get sunburn under a light bulb so I do LOL. If by blue skin you mean you can see 'shadow of the vains thats me alright so it is.
Logged
seferhabahir
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2012, 08:46:52 PM »

I got blue eyes, brown hair and  near transparant skin,  no freckles I get sunburn under a light bulb so I do LOL. If by blue skin you mean you can see 'shadow of the vains thats me alright so it is.

George Carlin had a routine on one of his 70's recordings about his Irish blue-white skin "glowing" at the beach. He also described some of his other interesting physiological traits which I won't go into. Pretty hilarious stuff at the time, I'm sure it's out there on the web somewhere.
Logged

Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.083 seconds with 19 queries.