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Author Topic: R1b-L21>DF23* - searching for DF23+ M222- people  (Read 1571 times)
Mike Walsh
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« on: November 02, 2012, 07:08:58 PM »

I am convinced that even though DF49 is older than DF23, DF23 is quite old. See this chart for where DF23 fits in above M222+, the NW Irish/Lowland Scots.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

I've been comparing our DF23* folks with L21+ M222- and M222 unknown folks and come up with a group of STR signatures that look to be DF23*.  I think there are more, just that DF49 and DF23 are undertested.

I'll start listing some. There is one that I can not separate from M222+ folks purely by STRs. I wonder if some assumed/predicted M222 folks are really DF23* ?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2012, 07:18:39 PM »

Mike-I suppose it must be almost impossible to seperate those descended from Mr M222 from those descended from his DF23* father, grandfather and I would assume several times great grandfathers from STRs alone.  

So I would agree totally.  There surely are people descended from the M222 line who split off in the generations before the SNP and who wrongly think they are M222. In fact the immediate origin of M222 is probably being clouded by people who have the classic STR signatures but who have wrongly assummed they are M222. If we could find and list and plot the very-M222-like DF23* people then that would really help understand the origins of this lineage.  I take it there are some people already who got surprising negative results for M222 despite their STRs?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 07:19:00 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2012, 07:42:25 PM »

.... I take it there are some people already who got surprising negative results for M222 despite their STRs?
There are some, but I think there would be a lot if the assumed M222 people really tested. Not to be critical, but M222 is a victim of its own early discovery. I don't think there is a much push for exploration as there is in an average L21* passionate (EDIT: 11/3 - sorry, intended as self deprecating) hobbyist.

They sorely need SNPs within M222, but I think youthfulness is working against it. It's amazing how young it appears for its great population.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 12:14:48 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2012, 06:03:40 AM »

.... I take it there are some people already who got surprising negative results for M222 despite their STRs?
There are some, but I think there would be a lot if the assumed M222 people really tested. Not to be critical, but M222 is a victim of its own early discovery. I don't think there is a much push for exploration as there is in an average L21* crazy hobbyist.

They sorely need SNPs within M222, but I think youthfulness is working against it. It's amazing how young it appears for its great population.

Well here's hoping the three new sub-SNP's that are supposedly in the GEN 2.0 will spur some interest,
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Jdean
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2012, 08:04:47 AM »

I am convinced that even though DF49 is older than DF23, DF23 is quite old. See this chart for where DF23 fits in above M222+, the NW Irish/Lowland Scots.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendancy_Tree.jpg

I've been comparing our DF23* folks with L21+ M222- and M222 unknown folks and come up with a group of STR signatures that look to be DF23*.  I think there are more, just that DF49 and DF23 are undertested.

I'll start listing some. There is one that I can not separate from M222+ folks purely by STRs. I wonder if some assumed/predicted M222 folks are really DF23* ?


This is a good idea.

I'd assumed M222 neg people who were close to the M222 modal had been contacted to test for DF23 a while ago, but just in case some were missed out it wouldn't do any harm to send out messages advising them of DF23.

Looking at the M222 plus results I can't help wonder if a sizable expansion from within this group has shifted the modal values away from the ancestral ones anyway. The modal GD from the modal values is only 6 @ 67 loci whilst the biggest is 19, anybody care to comment if that is the sort of result you would expect to see in a normal distribution ?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 08:30:14 AM by Jdean » Logged

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2012, 12:34:40 PM »

I've updated the R1b-L21 Haplotypes spreadsheet at the Yahoo group links with a re-evaluation and re-classification of R1b-L21>DF23* confirmed and suspected people.

The following off-modal STR signature based varieties each have at least one confirmed DF23+ M222- person in them.
--- EDITED this list on 11/5 to reflect labeling changes ---
49-23*-unassigned: {DF23*}
49-23-44413: 391<=10 439<=11 392>=14 380ii-i>=17 449>=31 607<=14 413a<=21 444>=13 481>=24 464c<=16 {DF23*} [Davis]
49-23-15-A: 385b>=15 481>=24 & 389i=14 448<=18 449>=31 444>=13  {DF23*}
49-23-15-WSW: 385b>=15 481>=24 & 395s1>=16 392>=15 393>=14 390<=23 391=10 534>=16 389ii-i=17 {DF23*} [Stephens,Vaughan,Davis]
49-23-1922-A: YCAII=19,22 413a<=21 481>=24 & 446<=12 439<=11 449>=31 456>=17 607<=14 576<=15 534>=17 {DF23*}
49-23-1922-C: YCAII=19,22 413a<=21 481>=24 & 537=11 385=12,15 458<=16 456>=17 520>=21 446>=14 (406s1=11) {DF23*} [Caldwell,McKenzie]
49-23-1922-J: 389i=14 447<=24 449>=29 464a= 14 464c=16 484>=24 (413a<=21) {DF23*} [Johnson]
49-23-1640-A: 464b=16 CDYb=40 481>=24 & 436=13 413=22,22 {DF23*}
49-23-1640-B: 464b=16 CDYb=40 481>=24 & 438>=13 393>=14 572<=10 {DF23*}
49-23-11-A: 413a<=22 565=11 481>=23 & 487=14 {DF23*}
49-23-11-HyM: 413a<22 565=11 481>=23 & 557=17 (456=15) {DF23*} [Kelly,Pugh,Trainor]
49-23-55715: 439<=11 459=9,9 449>=31 576<=17 557<=15 481>=24 520<=21 {DF23} [Gray]


The "WSW" variety and the "HyM" are the two largest groups. One is Ed Martin's Wales-SW England variety and the other is the Ui Maine group although there are people from Wales in both.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 03:02:30 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2012, 01:10:36 PM »

The problem with those who are happy to assume from STRs that they are M222 is that they are likely to be happy with the descendant of Niall tag and maybe dont want to risk that by testing for the SNP.  Being a descendant of Nialls GG grandfather may be less attractive to pay money to be.  I think that is a silly mentality but I am sure its a factor.  However, by doing that these untested people may be making the earlier story of this lineage unclear. 
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Peter M
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2012, 08:40:35 AM »

The following off-modal STR signature based varieties each have at least one confirmed DF23+ M222- person in them.

Mike, how can you be sure about varieties with only a single member ? How do you know these varieties are or will turn out to be significant ??

Or am I missing something important ??
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 10:42:16 AM by Peter M » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2012, 11:22:56 AM »

The following off-modal STR signature based varieties each have at least one confirmed DF23+ M222- person in them.

Mike, how can you be sure about varieties with only a single member ? How do you know these varieties are or will turn out to be significant ??

Or am I missing something important ??


In the spreadsheet I keep track of two items separately but also in context.

I am a big believer in SNP testing and advocate that everyone test to terminal SNP unless their proven brother/male cousin type has already done so.

I derive the actual haplogroup according to the SNP results and the ISOGG tree and I display that in one column.

In another column I assign, where possible, STR signature based varieties. They are based on a shared set of off-modal (from L21) values and GD's (as a cross-check) at 67 markers. These are what some people might call clusters. Ken Nordvedt has used the term "variety" because because these are not necessarily groups related in the genealogical timeframe.  Some of these varieties are very easy to spot and I think are reliable, for instance, 13*1030-Sc, or Scots modal.

Some varieties are highly speculative. I think they are all speculative. Before I ran out of room on the spreadsheet,I used to have comment on every column heading on that one I described this one as "speculative deep ancestral variety." Probably, that's the right description. In other words, the answer is I'm not at all sure these are firm groups of related people. I hope to encourage people to recruit others in these groups for SNP testing to validate what is and isn't. What we've been finding is that many of these do bear out to be real subclades, but some get eventually split or moved around.

My opinion is we need a lot more people with high DY481 values to test for DF23 and DF49 if they are M222-.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 01:37:31 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Dubhthach
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2012, 11:28:27 AM »

Being a descendant of Nialls GG grandfather may be less attractive to pay money to be.  I think that is a silly mentality but I am sure its a factor.  However, by doing that these untested people may be making the earlier story of this lineage unclear. 

Of course it doesn't help that Niall's GG-Grandfather was Cairbre Lifechair, who the Aírghialla claim was the father of the three Colla's (Colla Uais etc.). Of course the really interesting characters in his "ancestry" are:

Cormac mac Airt (Cormac ua Conn) -- GGG-Grandfather, famous obviously as the High King during the Fenian Cycle (Fionn mac Cumhal etc.)
Conn Cétchathach (of the Hundred battles) --- GGGGG-Grandfather, whom the Dál Cuinn are named after -- and thus also the Connachta

awh mythology/folklore is fun! Personally I think that been able to claim descent from either Conn or Art would trump Niall -- but that's just my opinion :-)

-Paul
(DF41+)
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eochaidh
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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2012, 12:31:32 PM »

I'm not sure why M222+, or predicted M222+, would be so excited. DF23+ most certaily originated in what is now France and M222 probably did as well.

Actually, I still believe that L21 and all of its subclades originated in France.

On my DF23 1411 group there are possibly three (3) from the Isles and 200 from France and Italy.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 12:34:27 PM by eochaidh » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2012, 01:44:04 PM »

Being a descendant of Nialls GG grandfather may be less attractive to pay money to be.  I think that is a silly mentality but I am sure its a factor.  However, by doing that these untested people may be making the earlier story of this lineage unclear. 

Of course it doesn't help that Niall's GG-Grandfather was Cairbre Lifechair, who the Aírghialla claim was the father of the three Colla's (Colla Uais etc.). Of course the really interesting characters in his "ancestry" are:

Cormac mac Airt (Cormac ua Conn) -- GGG-Grandfather, famous obviously as the High King during the Fenian Cycle (Fionn mac Cumhal etc.)
Conn Cétchathach (of the Hundred battles) --- GGGGG-Grandfather, whom the Dál Cuinn are named after -- and thus also the Connachta

awh mythology/folklore is fun! Personally I think that been able to claim descent from either Conn or Art would trump Niall -- but that's just my opinion :-)

-Paul
(DF41+)

I agree, and Tuathal Techtmair somewhere a few generations before that.  I find the pre-Niall part of the lineage as depicted in mythology far more interesting, much better tales than anything surviving about Niall.  However, they dont have as good an agent as Niall in this hobby!  Also I am not too sure about the pre-Niall lineage. Its all a bit confusion though they way they are depticted as kings of Tara.  Also seems contradictory with the Ulster Cycle version of the royalty of Connaught although I suppose that was depticting Connaught before Conn and before the Connachta.  I suspect the Connaught men in the Ulster Cycle might really be Fir Domnainn although this has been blurred.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2012, 02:44:05 PM »

Reply #5 of this thread has been updated with STR signatures for these varieties.

Unassigned DF23*

f63595____ Anglin_________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23*-unassigned____ _______ Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork
f78065____ Lamphier_______ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23*-unassigned____ _______ France, Languedoc-Roussillon
fN26284___ Leister________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23*-unassigned____ _______ Ireland


49-23-11-A

fN46295___ Bonnet_________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ Italy, Piedmont, Montoulles, Chambonsn (Waldensian French community)
f18917____ Brun___________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ France, Poitou-Charentes
f165344___ Greenlee_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Campbeltown
f161264___ Johnston_______ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f97610____ Kehoe__________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Wexford
Johnston is questionable on this one - GD=13 to the 49-23-11-A modal. The rest are GDs=0 to 9 to the modal @ 67.

49-23-11-HyM

fB1536____ Bodamer________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Germany, Baden-Württenberg, Grünwettersbach
f175660___ De Grey________ R1b-L21>DF13__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ England
f79367____ Kelly(Ui Maine) zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f100219___ Kelly(Ui Maine) R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Raheen, Gort
f162015___ Kelly(Ui Maine) zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon
f107869___ Kelly(Ui Maine) zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Laois
f160027___ Madden_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Munster, Co. Clare (?Limerick)
fN33146___ O'Kelly(Ui Main zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f84928____ O'Kelly(Ui Main zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f128257___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales
f108037___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales
f60472____ Pugh___________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales
f189772___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales, North, Gwyneed
f185074___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f27822____ Shannon________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f14875____ Thomas_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales, South Carmarthenshire, Llandybie
f108030___ Trainor________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f159039___ Trainor________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f81092____ Traynor________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f132540___ Traynor________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan
fN5677____ Traynor________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dromore, Corlaghdergan
Bodamer and de Gray are questionable in this one with GDs of 15 and 13. The rest are GDs 3 to 10 to the variety modal.

49-23-15-A

f69336____ Bradley________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-A___________ _______ England, South West, Somersetshire
f162881___ Carroll________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-15-A___________ _______ Ireland, Munster, Co. Tipperary, Ballingarry
f46265____ Craddock_______ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-15-A___________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f11435____ Elliott________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-15-A___________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Donegal
f51058____ Lewis__________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-A___________ _______ UK
Elliott is questionable with a GD of 20. The others are GDs 5 to 11.

49-23-15-WSW

f162597___ Anderson_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f141902___ Bryan__________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales
f90439____ Davis__________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ England
f239359___ Davis__________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f69464____ Davis__________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f156191___ Evans__________ R1b-L21>DF13__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales, West, Cardiganshire
f81103____ Griffin________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales
f189010___ Griffith_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales
f5140_____ Hooper_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ GD=xx__ zzzUnkOrigin
f77238____ Morgan_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ UK
f137289___ Morgan_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f208316___ Newton_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f133436___ Pool___________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales
f157973___ Pool___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ GD=xx__ Wales
fN29376___ Powell_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales, Mid, Powys, Radnorshire, Lowes
f98110____ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales
f113011___ Scott__________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f211712___ Stephens_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ England
f19920____ Stephens_______ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Scotland
f156257___ Stephens_______ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f110031___ Stephens_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f197585___ Stephens_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f25980____ Stephens_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f26232____ Stephens_______ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ GD=xx__ zzzUnkOrigin
f120942___ Stevens________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales
f27039____ Stevens________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f156124___ Stevens________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ GD=xx__ zzzUnkOrigin
f49637____ Vaughan________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales
f147036___ Vaughan________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales
f154440___ Vaughan________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales
f125079___ Vaughan________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ GD=xx__ Wales
f64716____ Vaughan________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f108697___ Vaughn_________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ Wales
f146350___ Vaughn_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f34742____ Workman(Vaughan R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23________ 49-23-15-WSW_________ GD=xx__ zzzUnkOrigin
GDs are 0 to 7 for this variety.

49-23-1640-A

fN22529___ Davies_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1640-A_________ _______ Wales, Mid, Montgomeryshire, Llanfyllin
f74975____ Humphrey_______ R1b-L21>DF13__________________ 49-23-1640-A_________ _______ Wales, North, Gwynedd, Caernarvonshire, Lleyn
fN1871____ Warren_________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-1640-A_________ _______ UK
GDs are 3 to 6.

49-23-1640-B

f225795___ Allen__________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1640-B_________ _______ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Westmeath, Rathconrath
f225795___ Allen__________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1640-B_________ _______ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Westmeath, Rathconrath
f178560___ Davis__________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1640-B_________ _______ Wales
fN108400__ Joyce__________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-1640-B_________ _______ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway
f250714___ Lewis__________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1640-B_________ _______ Wales
f144928___ Morgan_________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1640-B_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f111218___ Nallen_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1640-B_________ _______ Ireland
f74772____ Phillips_______ R1b-L21>DF13__________________ 49-23-1640-B_________ _______ England
f160476___ Welsh__________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1640-B_________ _______ Ireland
GDs are 4 to 9.

49-23-1922-A

f41311____ Eaton__________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-1922-A_________ _______ England, South East, Kent
f174499___ Harvey_________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1922-A_________ _______ England, South West, Somerset, South Somerset, Ashill
f99593____ Taylor_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1922-A_________ _______ England
GDs are 0 to 5.

49-23-1922-C

f137235___ Caldwell_______ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-1922-C_________ _______ Ireland
fN26081___ Caldwell_______ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1922-C_________ _______ Scotland
f15940____ Caldwell_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1922-C_________ _______ Scotland, Strathclyde, Lanarkshire, Glasgow
f123987___ Caldwell_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1922-C_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f79710____ Carll__________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1922-C_________ _______ UK
f39249____ MacKenzie______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1922-C_________ _______ Scotland, Highland, Ross & Cromarty, Achiltibuie
f36459____ McKenzie_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1922-C_________ _______ Scotland, Highland, Ross & Cromarty, Achiltibuie
f82717____ Taylor_________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1922-C_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f46661____ Wilson_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1922-C_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster
GDs are 0 to 9.

49-23-1922-J

f101343___ Fancher________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ England
f41836____ Fancher________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ England, London
fN10959___ Johnson________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Belfast
f208254___ Johnson________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ UK
f60575____ Johnson________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f117783___ Johnston_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster
f95659____ Johnston_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim,  Aghnadore Townland
f90660____ Johnston_______ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Londonderrykeighan
f37464____ Johnston_______ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ Scotland
f231239___ Johnston_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ Scotland
f73834____ Landon_________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ France
f207798___ Martin_________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-1922-J_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim
GDs are 2 to 9.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 02:47:35 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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eochaidh
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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2012, 03:09:12 PM »

I think FTDNA# 164101 John S. Dougherty 1794-1867, Ireland, could be added to the 49-23-11-A Group. He's a GD of -3 (64/67) with me and I believe -4 or -5 with Bonnet and Greenlee. His origin is listed as Ireland on the Doherty Project. His Ysearch ID is MYXKS.
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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2012, 03:23:15 PM »


I agree, and Tuathal Techtmair somewhere a few generations before that.  I find the pre-Niall part of the lineage as depicted in mythology far more interesting, much better tales than anything surviving about Niall.  However, they dont have as good an agent as Niall in this hobby!  Also I am not too sure about the pre-Niall lineage. Its all a bit confusion though they way they are depticted as kings of Tara.  Also seems contradictory with the Ulster Cycle version of the royalty of Connaught although I suppose that was depticting Connaught before Conn and before the Connachta.  I suspect the Connaught men in the Ulster Cycle might really be Fir Domnainn although this has been blurred.

Well the interesting twist is that the earliest texts on the Ulster Cycle are centered around Tara and not Cruchán Ai. One good example is a poem from the munster poet Luccreth moccu Chiara who lived in 7th century Kerry, this poem is called:  Conailla Medb míchuru ("Medb enjoined evil contracts"). Here's the general description of it from wiki:

Quote
The 73-line poem Conailla Medb Míchuru ("Medb enjoined evil contracts") is preserved, along with a later prose introduction, in a genealogical tract in the 15th century manuscript Laud Misc 610 in the Bodleian Library,[5] and has been edited and translated by P. L. Henry.[6] It contains one of the earliest references in Irish literature to events and characters of the Ulster Cycle, telling of the Ulaid hero Fergus mac Róich's exile from his king, Conchobar, to queen Medb and king Ailill, and his involvement in their war over the Ulaid's cattle. However, his exile is not in Connacht, as in the extant versions of Táin Bó Cúailnge and related stories, but in Tara. Cú Chulainn does not appear, his role taken by Fergus' son Fiacc, who defends the Ulaid against his father's battalions. The poem goes on to tell how the descendants of the Ulaid hero Cethern settled in the midlands, and later migrated to Munster in the time of Óengus mac Nad Froích (d. 490).[6] Luccreth refers to the material he presents as sen-eolas ("old knowledge"), traditional material passed down from his ancestors.[7]

Let's put this into context the earliest versions of the Táin (which Kinsella translated in the 1960's) are from the late 11/early 12th century. Though the language in them is probably at least from the 8th/9th century.

Connacht wasn't even named after the Connachta during the period the Táin is suppose to have happened (in and around late 1st century BC).

Obviously around Niall there is some saga's specifically  "The Adventures of the Sons of Eochaid Mugmedon". Conn though obviously has a number of "esctactic vision" stories such as "Baile in Scáil" (Buile an Scáth) -- the phantoms "rage" (vision) and " Baile Chuinn Cétchathaigh" which interesting enough are generally early King's list which involve the god Lugh (Lú)
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2012, 04:35:16 PM »

Has anyone heard of the idea that somewhere like Athenry was a major power centre and there was a lot of revisionism to make Tara more important?
I vaguely remember something about it on DNA Forums, one thing I remember that was put forward was that in The Tain an army marches towards somewhere like Athlone which was way out of the route they had to go if Tara was an important site.
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2012, 05:10:13 PM »

Has anyone heard of the idea that somewhere like Athenry was a major power centre and there was a lot of revisionism to make Tara more important?
I vaguely remember something about it on DNA Forums, one thing I remember that was put forward was that in The Tain an army marches towards somewhere like Athlone which was way out of the route they had to go if Tara was an important site.

Well the route doesn't go by Athlone, which would be expected tbh as Cruachan Ai is in North Roscommon. The reference to Athlone is in the final scene after the battle of the bulls. When Donn Cuailnge (The Brown of Cooley) killed Finnbhennach (White-Horn) he wander about the place with Finnbhennachs remains on his horns, tossing different body parts off at different places. This was then used to explain the origin of placenames.

Obviously in this case the story claims that it was the Loin/Haunch of Finnbhennach that was cast off the horns of Donn Cuailnge at Athlone (Ath Luain)

Quote
2 lón
lúan
Keywords: haunch; rump; buttock; hip; rump; steak; chine-steaks; hip-cramp

This would probably be a false etymology of the name used for poetic affect.

Anyways Tara isn't really mentioned at all in the Táin, however as mentioned it's the setting in earliest bits of poetry. Perhaps what you are seeing thus is memory of the Dál Cuinn as a more unified grouping. After all by the 8th/9th century Tara and the Kingdom of Midhe (Mí) was the perserve of the Southern Uí Néill, whereas their near relatives the "Three Connachta" were west of the Shannon in the province that still bears their names to this day.

As for the topic, I believe there is another member of the Uí Máine Kelly's who has just ordered DF23, he's 111 STR tested and had previous done deep clade so is confirmed M222-.
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« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2012, 06:30:43 PM »

I think FTDNA# 164101 John S. Dougherty 1794-1867, Ireland, could be added to the 49-23-11-A Group. He's a GD of -3 (64/67) with me and I believe -4 or -5 with Bonnet and Greenlee. His origin is listed as Ireland on the Doherty Project. His Ysearch ID is MYXKS.

Thanks, Miles. I'll add him to the spreadsheet. He fits.
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2012, 02:05:04 AM »

Reply #5 of this thread has been updated with STR signatures for these varieties.

Unassigned DF23*

f63595____ Anglin_________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23*-unassigned____ _______ Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork
f78065____ Lamphier_______ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23*-unassigned____ _______ France, Languedoc-Roussillon
fN26284___ Leister________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23*-unassigned____ _______ Ireland


49-23-11-A

fN46295___ Bonnet_________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ Italy, Piedmont, Montoulles, Chambonsn (Waldensian French community)
f18917____ Brun___________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ France, Poitou-Charentes
f165344___ Greenlee_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Campbeltown
f161264___ Johnston_______ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f97610____ Kehoe__________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Wexford
Johnston is questionable on this one - GD=13 to the 49-23-11-A modal. The rest are GDs=0 to 9 to the modal @ 67.

49-23-11-HyM

fB1536____ Bodamer________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Germany, Baden-Württenberg, Grünwettersbach
f175660___ De Grey________ R1b-L21>DF13__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ England
f79367____ Kelly(Ui Maine) zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f100219___ Kelly(Ui Maine) R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Raheen, Gort
f162015___ Kelly(Ui Maine) zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon
f107869___ Kelly(Ui Maine) zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Laois
f160027___ Madden_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Munster, Co. Clare (?Limerick)
fN33146___ O'Kelly(Ui Main zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f84928____ O'Kelly(Ui Main zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f128257___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales
f108037___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales
f60472____ Pugh___________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales
f189772___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales, North, Gwyneed
f185074___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f27822____ Shannon________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f14875____ Thomas_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales, South Carmarthenshire, Llandybie
f108030___ Trainor________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f159039___ Trainor________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f81092____ Traynor________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f132540___ Traynor________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan
fN5677____ Traynor________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dromore, Corlaghdergan
Bodamer and de Gray are questionable in this one with GDs of 15 and 13. The rest are GDs 3 to 10 to the variety modal.

JJBodamer here:
I came across this three-part conversation last night and notified B. Traynor, since so far, he's my closest match at 12 AND 25. 
[http://www.geni.com/share?t=6000000000741514606]
My question is: could this anomaly be attributable to somebody cheatin' on somebody, or did an Irishman pick up sticks long, long ago and relocate to the beautiful city of Wurttemberg for a six-figure salary?
I'm waiting on Geno 2.0 results now, perhaps they will help figure this out?
Thanks for any assistance or speculation, r.
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Y-DNA R-P312 / 644- / Z302? EKA: Johann Jacob Bodemer b. abt 1757 Germany
MtDNA  J1c1b2 EKA: Susannah Ransome b. abt 1717 South Carolina, USA
Kit No. B1536
Ysearch TXC93
Heber
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2012, 05:49:37 AM »

Reply #5 of this thread has been updated with STR signatures for these varieties.

Unassigned DF23*

f63595____ Anglin_________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23*-unassigned____ _______ Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork
f78065____ Lamphier_______ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23*-unassigned____ _______ France, Languedoc-Roussillon
fN26284___ Leister________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23*-unassigned____ _______ Ireland


49-23-11-A

fN46295___ Bonnet_________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ Italy, Piedmont, Montoulles, Chambonsn (Waldensian French community)
f18917____ Brun___________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ France, Poitou-Charentes
f165344___ Greenlee_______ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ Scotland, Strathclyde, Argyllshire, Campbeltown
f161264___ Johnston_______ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f97610____ Kehoe__________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-A___________ _______ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Wexford
Johnston is questionable on this one - GD=13 to the 49-23-11-A modal. The rest are GDs=0 to 9 to the modal @ 67.

49-23-11-HyM

fB1536____ Bodamer________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Germany, Baden-Württenberg, Grünwettersbach
f175660___ De Grey________ R1b-L21>DF13__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ England
f79367____ Kelly(Ui Maine) zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f100219___ Kelly(Ui Maine) R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Galway, Raheen, Gort
f162015___ Kelly(Ui Maine) zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Connacht, Co. Roscommon
f107869___ Kelly(Ui Maine) zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Leinster, Co. Laois
f160027___ Madden_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Munster, Co. Clare (?Limerick)
fN33146___ O'Kelly(Ui Main zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f84928____ O'Kelly(Ui Main zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f128257___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales
f108037___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales
f60472____ Pugh___________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales
f189772___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales, North, Gwyneed
f185074___ Pugh___________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ zzzUnkOrigin
f27822____ Shannon________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f14875____ Thomas_________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Wales, South Carmarthenshire, Llandybie
f108030___ Trainor________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f159039___ Trainor________ R1b-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23*_______ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f81092____ Traynor________ zzL21suspect__________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland
f132540___ Traynor________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan
fN5677____ Traynor________ R1b-L21_______________________ 49-23-11-HyM_________ _______ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone, Dromore, Corlaghdergan
Bodamer and de Gray are questionable in this one with GDs of 15 and 13. The rest are GDs 3 to 10 to the variety modal.

JJBodamer here:
I came across this three-part conversation last night and notified B. Traynor, since so far, he's my closest match at 12 AND 25.  
[http://www.geni.com/share?t=6000000000741514606]
My question is: could this anomaly be attributable to somebody cheatin' on somebody, or did an Irishman pick up sticks long, long ago and relocate to the beautiful city of Wurttemberg for a six-figure salary?
I'm waiting on Geno 2.0 results now, perhaps they will help figure this out?
Thanks for any assistance or speculation, r.

Here are some examples of contacts between Baden Wurttemburg (and surrounding area) and Ireland from the 7th - 12th centuries.

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/celtic-monastic-movement/
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 05:51:43 AM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
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