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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2012, 02:48:13 PM »

I used the TMRCA calculator on Genebase.  There are other calculators but you would need to punch in all the values for each STR for both you and Gatuav to get an accurate answer because each allel has a different mutation rate.  If it comes out close to mine a difference of 4 could be as far apart as 50 generation X 30 years per generation or 1500 ybp (512C.E.).  And that is only at a 50% chance of a shared ancestor!
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R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2012, 03:09:03 PM »

Maliclavelli,
It seems you are totally correct again as far as the comparisons go and also when you mentioned that my strs have not so much of an Italian signature as more of a French one. 

I did another comparison but narrowed it to Western Europe and R1b L-2 and the results were:  closest French, Belgian, Swiss, Austrian, German and a few Dutch, Spanish.

As far as the migrations go, I think the reasons for the lack of answers may be because of multiple migrations over the history of man.  For instance if R1b migrated to the Middle from the steppe, where were their ancient ancestors from?  Possibly a much earlier migration from Indus valley?

Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?

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R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
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« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2012, 03:32:00 PM »

Is there a high concentration of R1b in the Steppe?  It's really interesting that I match someone from Ossetia.  I did a search on his haplogroup - Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a, and it said it is Assyrian with a high concentration in the Caucasus and Armenia. 

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.  

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?

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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2012, 03:51:50 PM »

That is the subject of many discussions.  Here is some reading on the subject from http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/the-proto-indo-europeans-and-their-early-descendants-proto-languages-and-homelands/:

"R1b levels are highest in Spain and the Western British Isles. The launching point for the R1b seems to have been the Maykop Culture of 5500 YBP. From there, they spread all over Europe.

The Maykop Culture was an early PIE split that existed between the Taman Peninsula just east of the Crimea east to the Dagestan border in the area that includes part of Southern Russia east of the Crimea, Adygea, Karachay-Cherkessia, Kabardino-Balkaria, North Ossetia, Ingushetia and Chechnya in the Caucasus.

The center of the culture was around Maykop in Adygea (Circassia). The region is now inhabited by peoples of the Caucasus and is heavily Muslim.

An explanation:

    The Proto-Indo-Europeans belonged both R1a and R1b. Their homeland was in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, in what is known as the Kurgan culture (7000-2200 BCE).
Is there a high concentration of R1b in the Steppe?  It's really interesting that I match someone from Ossetia.  I did a search on his haplogroup - Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a, and it said it is Assyrian with a high concentration in the Caucasus and Armenia."


Interestingly Dagestan is where the Lak people are primarily located.  

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.  

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?

« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 04:47:35 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2012, 12:19:46 PM »

Here is some information I recently found and it is almost the same idea I have about the possible route of R1b out of Africa:

Permission to reprint here given to me by Paul:

 I have just been tested for my Haplogroup R1b M343 (M168, M89, M9, M45, M207, M173, R1b M343). I find that the migration routes that the genebase companies use are not very accurate. I have been trying to research a more accurate path of my people and your blog gave me some more things to think about. I am a newcomer to this research so maybe you could provide more insite. I believe my people were similair to the modern pygmies like the Khosian people of east Africa. Unlike the genebase companies that depict a line going across the Red Sea, I believe my people may have travelled north up the West Coast of the Red Sea possibly later giving rise to the Kushite people who ruled Egypt for some time. M89 was part of the second wave of migration out of Africa so I assume they made their way through the Saharan gateway and spent a few thousand years living and breeding in the Fertile Cresent and the Levant. From there I believe they took refuge in Anatolia until the great flood where they headed east to the edge of the Caspian Sea. Here they gave rise to the Lezgine people of Azerbaijan. M9 became early farmers in Europe as part of the neolithic culture and remained in the Caucasus region for sometime. I believe the Lezgines may possibly be my indigenous group however my Grandfather Father and Son are very Basque looking . M45 My people then moved north along the Danube river and finally made their way south west to the Bay of Biscay (Iberia) where they gave rise to the Basque people. After the Ice Age finished they started to make their way into Europe (Cro Magnon)then to the british Isles where they gave rise to the Brtigantes tribe. Alternatively they may have gone north to the Hindu Kush (M45) but I do find it strange that they would go all the way to that part of Asia.
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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2012, 05:05:47 PM »

Here is a chart that shows Ossetes(Ossetians) are comprised of 42.6% R1b.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus

Wow! That is a lot higher than I thought it would be.  Also they have classified this language group:  IE (Iranic, NE)

Is there a high concentration of R1b in the Steppe?  It's really interesting that I match someone from Ossetia.  I did a search on his haplogroup - Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a, and it said it is Assyrian with a high concentration in the Caucasus and Armenia.  

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.  

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?

« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 05:31:40 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2012, 05:45:36 PM »

That is quite high - 42.6%.  Once my Z2105 test comes back, I'm curious to take the L277 and L584 test as I match FEPAF (Ossetian).  So far I have closely matched with all Eastern Europeans - Slovak, Czech, Polish, Hungarian.  So a match with an Ossetian is interesting - distance of 4 out of 51 markers compared.  Maybe I'll be positive downstream of Z2105.  Either way, it's interesting; though I am somewhat skeptical of Ysearch's matches as markers are typed in manually.  It would be nice for all research labs to combine their findings.  In the end, I suppose it's a business...


Here is a chart that shows Ossetes(Ossetians) are comprised of 42.6% R1b.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus

Wow! That is a lot higher than I thought it would be.  Also they have classified this language group:  IE (Iranic, NE)

Is there a high concentration of R1b in the Steppe?  It's really interesting that I match someone from Ossetia.  I did a search on his haplogroup - Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a, and it said it is Assyrian with a high concentration in the Caucasus and Armenia.  

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.  

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?

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gtc
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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2012, 01:52:57 AM »

What does the asterisks signify - "R-L584*"

Saje,
It means all possible downstream SNP's have been tested and the outcomes of those downstream were negative.  If it had been written R-L584+ it means the outcome of the test was positive but there are downstream SNPs yet to test.

Rather than all possible, I'd prefer to make a subtle change and say all "currently testable" downstream SNPs. There may be other SNPs downstream which are known, but not yet available for test. In short, the star (*) means keep on the lookout for new testing opportunities.
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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2012, 09:36:51 AM »

Good idea.  More accurately stated.
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palamede
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« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2012, 03:28:05 PM »

Here is a chart that shows Ossetes(Ossetians) are comprised of 42.6% R1b.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_the_Caucasus

Wow! That is a lot higher than I thought it would be.  Also they have classified this language group:  IE (Iranic, NE)


I think the right studies are  Balanovsky 2011 (with n=230 for Iron and n=127 for Digor ).
The result of Nasidze 2004 (n=129) for haplogroup I has been contested for systematic  false results.
Rosser2000 (n=47) is too old and too weak to be considered. Therefore, the result 42,6% for R1b must be forgotten.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 03:28:57 PM by palamede » Logged

Y=G2a3b1a2-L497 Wallony-Charleroi; Mt=H2a2a1 Normandy-Bray
Dodecad-DiY: E Eur 9,25% W Eur 48,48% Med 28,46% W Asia 11,70%
World9: Atl-Balt 67,61% Southern 13,23% Cauc-Gedr 12,73%
K12a: North-E 39,71% Med 37,9% Cauc 12,55% Gedr 5,78% SW Asia 2,13%
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2012, 04:57:04 PM »

Hello all. My power was restored last night, so I haven't been able to reply sooner.

All close matches across haplogroups are mere coincidences.

We all have theories, but the credibility of those theories have a weight based on the quality and quantity of facts supporting the theory. A Phoenician R1b link fails many basic smoke tests.

1. The Phoenicians lived thousands of years after R1b was well established in Europe. The likelihood that the known Bell Beaker R1b1a2 samples from Germany were "Phoenicians" is almost zero.
2. The Phoenicians were a known Semitic speaking people to Indo-European speakers like the Romans, Celts and Greeks. Why associate R1b with a people who neither spoke IE nor originated from IE speaking areas (North Africa & the Middle East)?
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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2012, 05:40:55 PM »

Hello Richard,

Just glad to hear you are ok and that you got power back in Jersey!
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« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2012, 08:10:29 PM »

Hello Richard,

Just glad to hear you are ok and that you got power back in Jersey!

Thanks Curtis. We were only inconvenienced by having to take cold showers. Nothing like the devastation in the southern part of the state.
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« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2012, 12:26:51 PM »

To some members on the forum anything from the bible is highly offensive, and apparently also the terms R1b and I.E. associated together so we have to be careful not to offend anyone. Nevertheless we do have names that are derived from[Ashkenaz-Ashkenazi- In the rabbinic literature, the kingdom of Ashkenaz was first associated with the Scythian region, then later with the Slavic territories], or are similar to biblical texts[Ararat] and fairly recent studies defined in these areas .
For example Ararat

 Jeremiah 51:27

  " kingdom of Ashkenaz was called together with Ararat and Minni against Babylon"

Depending on the study,  areas  associated with elevated levels of R1b in select areas of the Caucasus[Digor Ossets/Armenians] and NW Iran[Gilak/Lurs] there are also non I.E groups with pockets of R1b.
 For example (Ararat Valley) surrounding and adjacent regions Karabakh-Syunik I.E..

1]Armenians/(Ararat Valley)- sample n110-37.3%-Herrara2012
2]Armenians general-sample n734-32.4%-Weale2001
3]Gilak+Lurs-samples n114-21%- Grugni 2012
4]North Ossetians n127-16.5%-Balanovsky 2011

Or combined Weale and Grugni, Balanovsky studies yield sample size of=n975-23.35%  selected pockets of I.E speaking regions. All potentially R-M269+L23+L150+ z2105+



« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 12:35:44 PM by acekon » Logged

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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2012, 01:33:13 PM »

Hello all. My power was restored last night, so I haven't been able to reply sooner.

All close matches across haplogroups are mere coincidences.

We all have theories, but the credibility of those theories have a weight based on the quality and quantity of facts supporting the theory. A Phoenician R1b link fails many basic smoke tests.

1. The Phoenicians lived thousands of years after R1b was well established in Europe. The likelihood that the known Bell Beaker R1b1a2 samples from Germany were "Phoenicians" is almost zero.
2. The Phoenicians were a known Semitic speaking people to Indo-European speakers like the Romans, Celts and Greeks. Why associate R1b with a people who neither spoke IE nor originated from IE speaking areas (North Africa & the Middle East)?
I was especially concerned because my niece lives just off Raritan bay in Keyport and her baby was due!  They wouldn't evacuate but said they were going to the hospital 30 miles south to stay in a hotel just in case and the hospital is on the beach.  Baby Hays was born during the hurricane there on the 29th!

About the match outside the haplogroup, I understand but here is an interesting one in L2+:  JW8MV   Hanni   Bouzareah, Algiers, Algeria.  In the first 30 markers in FTDNA order I am 4/30 but with 67 markers compared I am 19/67.  Hanni sounds a lot like a Phoenician name to me.  Hanni being a warrior of Dado who was sister to Pumiyyathon a.k.a. Pygmalion.

Curtis Hays Pigman(Pigmon-Pygmon)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 01:37:38 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2012, 01:39:20 PM »


I was especially concerned because my niece lives just off Raritan bay in Keyport and her baby was due!  They wouldn't evacuate but said they were going to the hospital 30 miles south to stay in a hotel just in case and the hospital is on the beach.  Baby Hays was born during the hurricane there on the 29th!


That's excellent news Curtis, congratulations.
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« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2012, 01:47:14 PM »


About the match outside the haplogroup, I understand but here is an interesting one in L2+:  JW8MV   Hanni   Bouzareah, Algiers, Algeria.  In the first 30 markers in FTDNA order I am 4/30 but with 67 markers compared I am 19/67.  Hanni sounds a lot like a Phoenician name to me.  Hanni being a warrior of Dado who was sister to Pumiyyathon a.k.a. Pygmalion.

Curtis Hays Pigman(Pigmon-Pygmon)

Mr. Hanni told me that his grandfather was the result of a non-paternal event, so he has no idea where to trace his lineage to. His match to you is more important than the other way around.

As for Phoenician names, and as I've mentioned in the past - there is zero link between the surnames our ancestors invented 600 years ago or the names Phoenicians were using 2500 years ago as there was no continuity of surnames during that time span.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 01:48:09 PM by Richard Rocca » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2012, 01:51:22 PM »

Hello all. My power was restored last night, so I haven't been able to reply sooner.

All close matches across haplogroups are mere coincidences.

We all have theories, but the credibility of those theories have a weight based on the quality and quantity of facts supporting the theory. A Phoenician R1b link fails many basic smoke tests.

1. The Phoenicians lived thousands of years after R1b was well established in Europe. The likelihood that the known Bell Beaker R1b1a2 samples from Germany were "Phoenicians" is almost zero.
2. The Phoenicians were a known Semitic speaking people to Indo-European speakers like the Romans, Celts and Greeks. Why associate R1b with a people who neither spoke IE nor originated from IE speaking areas (North Africa & the Middle East)?

Certainly you cannot associate a haplogroup to a linguistic family but it's possible Phoenicians did have some R1b members seeing as they were a confederation of NW Levantine tribes who never have had a solid genetic identity. Of course, this would never imply any real close link to the people in Europe who had already settled X thousand years earlier.

I'm also interested in some of the references to early Levantine people from a historic and biblical perspective. Usually they are all referred to as Semites, but it seems there are at least 2 or more groups who were not able to communicate with one another. I sometimes wonder if R1b-V88 were part of that earlier group.
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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2012, 02:05:26 PM »


About the match outside the haplogroup, I understand but here is an interesting one in L2+:  JW8MV   Hanni   Bouzareah, Algiers, Algeria.  In the first 30 markers in FTDNA order I am 4/30 but with 67 markers compared I am 19/67.  Hanni sounds a lot like a Phoenician name to me.  Hanni being a warrior of Dado who was sister to Pumiyyathon a.k.a. Pygmalion.

Curtis Hays Pigman(Pigmon-Pygmon)

Mr. Hanni told me that his grandfather was the result of a non-paternal event, so he has no idea where to trace his lineage to. His match to you is more important than the other way around.

As for Phoenician names, and as I've mentioned in the past - there is zero link between the surnames our ancestors invented 600 years ago or the names Phoenicians were using 2500 years ago as there was no continuity of surnames during that time span.
Thanks for the information on Mr. Hanni.  I did not know about the non paternal event.

You know however, I will still look for that link in the name continuity.  Who knows, one day we might find one.
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R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2012, 02:11:52 PM »

Hello all. My power was restored last night, so I haven't been able to reply sooner.

All close matches across haplogroups are mere coincidences.

We all have theories, but the credibility of those theories have a weight based on the quality and quantity of facts supporting the theory. A Phoenician R1b link fails many basic smoke tests.

1. The Phoenicians lived thousands of years after R1b was well established in Europe. The likelihood that the known Bell Beaker R1b1a2 samples from Germany were "Phoenicians" is almost zero.
2. The Phoenicians were a known Semitic speaking people to Indo-European speakers like the Romans, Celts and Greeks. Why associate R1b with a people who neither spoke IE nor originated from IE speaking areas (North Africa & the Middle East)?

Certainly you cannot associate a haplogroup to a linguistic family but it's possible Phoenicians did have some R1b members seeing as they were a confederation of NW Levantine tribes who never have had a solid genetic identity. Of course, this would never imply any real close link to the people in Europe who had already settled X thousand years earlier.

I'm also interested in some of the references to early Levantine people from a historic and biblical perspective. Usually they are all referred to as Semites, but it seems there are at least 2 or more groups who were not able to communicate with one another. I sometimes wonder if R1b-V88 were part of that earlier group.

What are the two groups if I may ask?
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R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
A_Wode
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Posts: 100


« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2012, 05:24:17 PM »

Hello all. My power was restored last night, so I haven't been able to reply sooner.

All close matches across haplogroups are mere coincidences.

We all have theories, but the credibility of those theories have a weight based on the quality and quantity of facts supporting the theory. A Phoenician R1b link fails many basic smoke tests.

1. The Phoenicians lived thousands of years after R1b was well established in Europe. The likelihood that the known Bell Beaker R1b1a2 samples from Germany were "Phoenicians" is almost zero.
2. The Phoenicians were a known Semitic speaking people to Indo-European speakers like the Romans, Celts and Greeks. Why associate R1b with a people who neither spoke IE nor originated from IE speaking areas (North Africa & the Middle East)?

Certainly you cannot associate a haplogroup to a linguistic family but it's possible Phoenicians did have some R1b members seeing as they were a confederation of NW Levantine tribes who never have had a solid genetic identity. Of course, this would never imply any real close link to the people in Europe who had already settled X thousand years earlier.

I'm also interested in some of the references to early Levantine people from a historic and biblical perspective. Usually they are all referred to as Semites, but it seems there are at least 2 or more groups who were not able to communicate with one another. I sometimes wonder if R1b-V88 were part of that earlier group.

What are the two groups if I may ask?

I'm certainly no expert on the topic, but I would suggest pre-Abrahamic cults and Abrahamic cults of the Near East for starters. There are likely many biblical contexts which should not be taken out of context, but not totally ignored either. There is usually a *grain* of truth to these, no matter how small.
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