World Families Forums - Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 24, 2014, 04:42:51 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Lak people Ossetian Modal? R1b1b2a  (Read 6154 times)
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« on: November 01, 2012, 08:38:23 PM »

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b.  

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 09:52:12 AM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
saje
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 42


« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 09:31:04 PM »

I also mached FEPAF on Ysearch with a distance of 5.  Which I find very i teresti g
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2153


« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 11:22:53 PM »

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This give me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b. 

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?


Yours is the religious/mythical version. Semargl on another forum and about another haplogroup has given the scientific/not mythical one:

”Here is an example:
source: http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/kit/49263/
we have a haplotype of the Russian-Carpathian branch
dys393 - 13
dys390 - 25
dys19 - 16
dys391 - 12
dys426 - 12
dys388 - 12
dys439 10
dys389_1 13
dys392_2 11
dys389y 30

At the same time, his close relatives, these 10 markers, a genetic distance = 2!
At the same time, we are full! match on 10 markers with:
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/query/
3 haplotypes from the Kyrgyz branch Z93+, L342+, L657-
1 - Z93+, L342+, L657+
5 - Z93+, L342-
3 - Z284+, L448+, L176+
1 - Z284+, L448-, Z287+, Z288+
109 - Z284+, L448+
6 - Z284+
22 - Z280+, L365+
12 - Z280+, Z92+
6 - Russian-Carpathian branch Z280+
4 - Z280+

etc.

As we can see, even within the Z280, we have a full match with haplotype in 4! very different branches, but we have a long distance to a close relative”.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

saje
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 42


« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2012, 10:22:07 AM »

I've also matched FEPAF with a distance of 5.  Is this a scientific match?   I'm wondering because I've read that a portion of Ossetians (The Jassic People) have lived in Hungary - which I also match. 

As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This gives me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b. 

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?


As I have refined my methods of research over the last couple of years, my method on ysearch.org is:

Maximum number of str's and genetic distance of 6.  This give me a lower number of candidates to compare my markers to with much more accuracy given the quirkiness of R1b. 

Here is one of my closest matches: at difference of 6/51 FEPAF   Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Besides Ossetia the Lak people are concentrated about mid Caspian Sea on the West side.
From:   http://usefulref.com/referencetopics/Inv_timeline/timeline/caucasus.html

The word Caucasus derives from Caucas, the ancestor of the North Caucasians.[2] He was a son of Togarmah, grandson of Biblical Noah's third son Japheth. According to Leonti Mroveli after the fall of the Tower of Babel and the division of humanity into different languages, Togarmah settled with his sons: Kartlos, Haik (Georgian:ჰაოს, Haos), Movakos, Lekos (Lak people), Heros (Kindgom of Hereti), Kavkas, and Egros (Kingdom of Egrisi) between two inaccessible mountains, presumably Mount Ararat and Mount Elbrus.

This is revealing to me because I am not really a proponent of R1b origins from the steppe.   This comparison between myself zhhcy  and ysearch id FEPAF however indicates otherwise!

Other matches at a distance of 5 or 6 are surnames Howe, Mauldin, Fortenberry, Bourbon, Lawson, Hamilton, etc.

Could these be the forerunners of the Greeks and Italians?


Yours is the religious/mythical version. Semargl on another forum and about another haplogroup has given the scientific/not mythical one:

”Here is an example:
source: http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/kit/49263/
we have a haplotype of the Russian-Carpathian branch
dys393 - 13
dys390 - 25
dys19 - 16
dys391 - 12
dys426 - 12
dys388 - 12
dys439 10
dys389_1 13
dys392_2 11
dys389y 30

At the same time, his close relatives, these 10 markers, a genetic distance = 2!
At the same time, we are full! match on 10 markers with:
http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/query/
3 haplotypes from the Kyrgyz branch Z93+, L342+, L657-
1 - Z93+, L342+, L657+
5 - Z93+, L342-
3 - Z284+, L448+, L176+
1 - Z284+, L448-, Z287+, Z288+
109 - Z284+, L448+
6 - Z284+
22 - Z280+, L365+
12 - Z280+, Z92+
6 - Russian-Carpathian branch Z280+
4 - Z280+

etc.

As we can see, even within the Z280, we have a full match with haplotype in 4! very different branches, but we have a long distance to a close relative”.

Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2012, 10:33:56 AM »

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to be considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 10:53:05 AM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
saje
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 42


« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2012, 10:43:33 AM »

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.
Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 10:51:59 AM »

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear.  

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF .  

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have sent a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 10:53:33 AM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
saje
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 42


« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 11:14:57 AM »

Ok.   I'll write Gatuev and let you know if I get a response.  Please do the same if you find out any information from Gatuev - ethnicity, location, etc. 

If we both match Gatuev I'm surprised that we do not have a match on ysearch. I am new at this though, so please excuse my lack of experience. 

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have send a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.
Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 11:35:13 AM »

What is your ysearch id number?

Ok.   I'll write Gatuev and let you know if I get a response.  Please do the same if you find out any information from Gatuev - ethnicity, location, etc. 

If we both match Gatuev I'm surprised that we do not have a match on ysearch. I am new at this though, so please excuse my lack of experience. 

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have send a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2153


« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2012, 11:39:02 AM »

To compare with someone is worth only if they belong to the same haplogroup.
Pigmon is R-L2+, i.e. a subclade of R-U152, and should compare only with people who belong to his haplogroup, then he with us and with FEPAF has nothing to do: many thousands of years of separation. Full stop.

Saje and me, belonging to R-Z2105+ (I certainly, he is presupposed) may compare with FEPAF, but also amongst the R-L23/Z2105 there may be people very distant: see what Semargl wrote.
FEPAF matches many people only because his 51 markers are some of the slowest mutating ones.

It isn’t said that Western European R-L23* are close to Middle Eastern ones: they could be close by their STRs values, but very distant in the origin. For this I said to Saje to test Z2105 and after L277 and L584. If he is negative for these last two, he may compare with our Europeans, but I have already said which is probably his origin: i.e. the Eastern European L23*, and closer to who has DYS464=14-14-15-16.

Full stop.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2964


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2012, 11:43:29 AM »

To compare with someone is worth only if they belong to the same haplogroup.
Pigmon is R-L2+, i.e. a subclade of R-U152, and should compare only with people who belong to his haplogroup, then he with us and with FEPAF has nothing to do: many thousands of years of separation. Full stop...

Maliclavelli is absolutely right. Deep clade SNP testing puts you on the right sub-branches and help filter out false matches.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
saje
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 42


« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2012, 11:48:04 AM »

Good to know.  Do you think Gatuev is worth contacting?

Also, if I am negative L277 and 584, is that as far as I can test?  So this means that I am eastern European origin and that it stops there?  I'm wondering how close I can pinpoint my origin as I am looking for a paternal side that I never had contact with beyond my father. 

Thank you. 

To compare with someone is worth only if they belong to the same haplogroup.
Pigmon is R-L2+, i.e. a subclade of R-U152, and should compare only with people who belong to his haplogroup, then he with us and with FEPAF has nothing to do: many thousands of years of separation. Full stop.

Saje and me, belonging to R-Z2105+ (I certainly, he is presupposed) may compare with FEPAF, but also amongst the R-L23/Z2105 there may be people very distant: see what Semargl wrote.
FEPAF matches many people only because his 51 markers are some of the slowest mutating ones.

It isn’t said that Western European R-L23* are close to Middle Eastern ones: they could be close by their STRs values, but very distant in the origin. For this I said to Saje to test Z2105 and after L277 and L584. If he is negative for these last two, he may compare with our Europeans, but I have already said which is probably his origin: i.e. the Eastern European L23*, and closer to who has DYS464=14-14-15-16.

Full stop.

Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2012, 12:07:48 PM »

To compare with someone is worth only if they belong to the same haplogroup.
Pigmon is R-L2+, i.e. a subclade of R-U152, and should compare only with people who belong to his haplogroup, then he with us and with FEPAF has nothing to do: many thousands of years of separation. Full stop...

Maliclavelli is absolutely right. Deep clade SNP testing puts you on the right sub-branches and help filter out false matches.

Yes, and I had that in mind when I started this thread.  I was hoping to obtain additional information from Gatuev thinking that he may have some deep clade information.  To find deep clade information to compare to in areas of the world like this is almost impossible.  However, we keep trying!

Saje, it look as though we are a genetic distance of 23 out of 67 compared.

Maybe R1b didn't come from the steepe after all!
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
acekon
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 152


« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2012, 12:15:47 PM »

Good to know.  Do you think Gatuev is worth contacting?

Also, if I am negative L277 and 584, is that as far as I can test?  So this means that I am eastern European origin and that it stops there?  I'm wondering how close I can pinpoint my origin as I am looking for a paternal side that I never had contact with beyond my father.  

Thank you.  

To compare with someone is worth only if they belong to the same haplogroup.
Pigmon is R-L2+, i.e. a subclade of R-U152, and should compare only with people who belong to his haplogroup, then he with us and with FEPAF has nothing to do: many thousands of years of separation. Full stop.

Saje and me, belonging to R-Z2105+ (I certainly, he is presupposed) may compare with FEPAF, but also amongst the R-L23/Z2105 there may be people very distant: see what Semargl wrote.
FEPAF matches many people only because his 51 markers are some of the slowest mutating ones.

It isn’t said that Western European R-L23* are close to Middle Eastern ones: they could be close by their STRs values, but very distant in the origin. For this I said to Saje to test Z2105 and after L277 and L584. If he is negative for these last two, he may compare with our Europeans, but I have already said which is probably his origin: i.e. the Eastern European L23*, and closer to who has DYS464=14-14-15-16.

Full stop.


Don,t all L51 U-152,L277,L584,Z2105* have  in common base markers M173_M420_M343_P25_P297_M269_L23_L150 ? These snps are found from Black Sea-Danube basin to Western Europe; inferring a common denominator in shared ancestry?When  L51 and Z2150 split would it not seem reasonable for slow mutating str's to also show this pattern, of being shared also among these same groups, mapping across this same region? Snp mutation split  L150-U-152 could be within 100-150 generation or less, so why not share slow mutating markers[ str's] between the two groups?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 12:30:00 PM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2153


« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2012, 12:39:35 PM »

Don,t all L51 U-152,L277,L584,Z2105* have  in common base markers M173_M420_M343_P25_P297_M269_L23_L150 ? These snps are found from Black Sea-Danube basin to Western Europe; inferring a common denominator in shared ancestry?When  L51 and Z2150 split would it not seem reasonable for slow mutating str's to also show this pattern, of being shared also among these same groups, mapping across this same region? Snp mutation split  L150-U-152 could be within 100-150 generation or less, so why not share slow mutating markers[ str's] between the two groups?

M420 not, because it is R1a*, then another haplogroup. I have spent many years to say that it isn’t said that “Ex Oriente lux”,  light may have come from West. See also what I have said for hg. R1a: the most ancient subclades are in Western Europe and not in Asia or Middle East: R1a-M420 and R1a1-M459.
The same is for R1b1: Middle Eastern ones, with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23 aren’t the ancestors of the European subclades, like R-L23/Z2105+ but also L277+ or L584+ aren’t the ancestors of R-L51. We are searching for an R-L23*, i.e Z2105-. Let’s see where we’ll find it.
But I think having demonstrated that the subclades of Z2105+ but not L277+ or L584+ are in Iberia (see 1KGP), then presuppose a migration from Tuscany/Italy, and Tuscans have also the subclades of L51* not P312 or U106. These for me are strong signals of an Italian origin. We will see.
Theories are demonstrated by proofs only.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

acekon
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 152


« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2012, 01:09:37 PM »

Don,t all L51 U-152,L277,L584,Z2105* have  in common base markers M173_M420_M343_P25_P297_M269_L23_L150 ? These snps are found from Black Sea-Danube basin to Western Europe; inferring a common denominator in shared ancestry?When  L51 and Z2150 split would it not seem reasonable for slow mutating str's to also show this pattern, of being shared also among these same groups, mapping across this same region? Snp mutation split  L150-U-152 could be within 100-150 generation or less, so why not share slow mutating markers[ str's] between the two groups?

M420 not, because it is R1a*, then another haplogroup. I have spent many years to say that it isn’t said that “Ex Oriente lux”,  light may have come from West. See also what I have said for hg. R1a: the most ancient subclades are in Western Europe and not in Asia or Middle East: R1a-M420 and R1a1-M459.
The same is for R1b1: Middle Eastern ones, with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23 aren’t the ancestors of the European subclades, like R-L23/Z2105+ but also L277+ or L584+ aren’t the ancestors of R-L51. We are searching for an R-L23*, i.e Z2105-. Let’s see where we’ll find it.
But I think having demonstrated that the subclades of Z2105+ but not L277+ or L584+ are in Iberia (see 1KGP), then presuppose a migration from Tuscany/Italy, and Tuscans have also the subclades of L51* not P312 or U106. These for me are strong signals of an Italian origin. We will see.
Theories are demonstrated by proofs only.



 Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?
Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2012, 01:26:23 PM »

Don,t all L51 U-152,L277,L584,Z2105* have  in common base markers M173_M420_M343_P25_P297_M269_L23_L150 ? These snps are found from Black Sea-Danube basin to Western Europe; inferring a common denominator in shared ancestry?When  L51 and Z2150 split would it not seem reasonable for slow mutating str's to also show this pattern, of being shared also among these same groups, mapping across this same region? Snp mutation split  L150-U-152 could be within 100-150 generation or less, so why not share slow mutating markers[ str's] between the two groups?

M420 not, because it is R1a*, then another haplogroup. I have spent many years to say that it isn’t said that “Ex Oriente lux”,  light may have come from West. See also what I have said for hg. R1a: the most ancient subclades are in Western Europe and not in Asia or Middle East: R1a-M420 and R1a1-M459.
The same is for R1b1: Middle Eastern ones, with YCAII=21-23 or 23-23 aren’t the ancestors of the European subclades, like R-L23/Z2105+ but also L277+ or L584+ aren’t the ancestors of R-L51. We are searching for an R-L23*, i.e Z2105-. Let’s see where we’ll find it.
But I think having demonstrated that the subclades of Z2105+ but not L277+ or L584+ are in Iberia (see 1KGP), then presuppose a migration from Tuscany/Italy, and Tuscans have also the subclades of L51* not P312 or U106. These for me are strong signals of an Italian origin. We will see.
Theories are demonstrated by proofs only.

Admittedly, I am not nearly as educated in genetics as a lot you guys on these forums thus, I depend on information I can find.  One thing I have noticed is that my idea of a theory as I was taught in school is more like definition number 2 of the following from dicitionary.com:

the·o·ry
   [thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Show IPA
noun, plural the·o·ries.
1.
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.

2.
a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. Synonyms: idea, notion hypothesis, postulate. Antonyms: practice, verification, corroboration, substantiation.

Number 2 fits my particular way of thinking better as I wonder a lot about my origins and it is fun to research history.

So my "theory-n.2" is that this web site has some ideas of how people in the Levant got to Spain,  Sicily, etc. and then the rest of Europe.  Not to say that they were all R1b, or all any other haplogroup as they were mixed.  From: http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art150.htm

"It has been suggested that the Phoenicians, essentially a Semitic people, arrived in the Middle East from the Persian Gulf sometime around 3000 BC. However, the evidence for this remains inconclusive. Today, their primary descendants include the Lebanese, Palestinians, Phoenicia and its cities.many Syrians and some Egyptians. Beyond the shores of the eastern Mediterranean, the people of Sicily, Spain, Sardinia, Tunisia and Malta boast at least some Phoenician blood, as well as a distinguished Phoenician cultural heritage."

"The Phoenicians' Semitic language was closely related to Hebrew and distantly related to Aramaic and to the Semitic languages of Mesopotamia, such as Assyrian and Babylonian, yet Phoenician civilization was clearly distinct from these other cultures. By AD 100, Aramaic had become the popular language of Phoenicia, but Carthaginians spoke the Punic dialect of Phoenician until the sixth century. (This Carthaginian language was essentially similar to "classical" Phoenician, but characterized by what are thought to have been some "native" north African elements.) The place name Gades (now Cadiz) comes from the Phoenician word for wall. The word bible comes from the Greek word for book, which the Greeks took from the name of the Phoenician city of Byblos, famous for its papyrus, a product they imported in vast quantities."

"The Phoenicians' arrival in western Sicily, circa 800 BC, coincided with the Greek settlement of the island's eastern areas. Initially, the Phoenicians' Sicilian cities were primarily trading centers, while the Greeks sought full-scale colonization of Sicily. Eventually, the Greeks fought a war against the Sicels of eastern Sicily, though the Phoenicians seem to have co-existed peacefully with the Elymians of the west, effectively co-founding towns such as Eryx (Erice)."

Could this be why our R1b snps do not match the ones from the steppe nor the one from the Middle East?  Maybe a mass migration from the Indus Valley after the melting of glacers just at the end of the LGM?

By the way, I am quite confident that Richard Rocca would be on here.  As he was most likely affected by the hurricane he may not have power and/or computer service at present.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 01:28:16 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2153


« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2012, 01:44:29 PM »

Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

saje
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 42


« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2012, 01:46:47 PM »

My ysearch:  XQE85.  

It now says that I am a genetic distance of 4 from    "FEPAF" Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Within how many generations would that make our relation?

Thanks

What is your ysearch id number?

Ok.   I'll write Gatuev and let you know if I get a response.  Please do the same if you find out any information from Gatuev - ethnicity, location, etc. 

If we both match Gatuev I'm surprised that we do not have a match on ysearch. I am new at this though, so please excuse my lack of experience. 

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have send a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.
Logged
acekon
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 152


« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2012, 01:52:45 PM »

Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?


Exactly; I agree.

 However all very plausible R1b from the North into Levant, could have also come from;

 Regions like "Scythopolis" . First the Philistines then the Scythians, inhabited the area. Indo-Europeans most likely from the Balkan region, and Black Sea. Just like Sumerians and Mitanni, it is apparent that these were foreign rulers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines
http://bibleencyclopedia.com/philistines.htm

"The Philistines were an uncircumcised people inhabiting the shore plain between Gezer and Gaza in Southwestern Palestine (see PHILISTIA). The name Palestine itself (Hebrew pelesheth) refers to their country. The word means "migrants," and they came from another country. They are noticed 286 times in the Old Testament, and their country 8 times. "


"Its Greek name Scythopolis is very likely derived from a colony of Scythians who invaded Palestine in the seventh century B.C."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13648b.htm
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 02:10:55 PM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
saje
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 42


« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2012, 01:57:13 PM »

What does the asterisks signify - "R-L584*"

Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?

Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2012, 02:11:31 PM »

What does the asterisks signify - "R-L584*"

Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?


Saje,
It means all possible downstream SNP's have been tested and the outcomes of those downstream were negative.  If it had been written R-L584+ it means the outcome of the test was positive but there are downstream SNPs yet to test.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 02:12:37 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
saje
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 42


« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2012, 02:14:24 PM »

Thanks!

What does the asterisks signify - "R-L584*"

Thanks Maliclavelli. I'm curious how many generations would you estimate the L51/z2105 split if you calculate at 30 years a generation, roughly +/- ?

Acekon, any calculation based upon STRs values risks to be misleading and I haven’t ever trust in it. I think that the haplotree based upon SNPs is more reliable.
If European R-Z2105* were come from Middle East, why hasn’t come also R-L584*? We should think that L584 has happened in Middle East after that R-Z2105* had migrated to West.

And why we don’t find in Middle East R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 or 18-22, the ancestor of R-M269* which had probably YCAII=18-23, like R-M335, I think having demonstrated born in Western Europe and not in the East like the most part of people think?
We should think that an R1b1* with YCAII=18-23 migrated to West and then all those haplotypes disappeared in the East etc. etc.

Don’t you think that, for the Occam’s razor, we should think that the migration happened in the other way around?


Saje,
It means all possible downstream SNP's have been tested and the outcomes of those downstream were negative.  If it had been written R-L584+ it means the outcome of the test was positive but there are downstream SNPs yet to test.
Logged
Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2012, 02:20:01 PM »

It depends on how many markers were compared and which markers they were.  I have just gotten a match with a genetic distance of 4 with surname Chew.  The results for that one are:

You and Fredrick Chew match at 17/20 markers.

There is a 50% chance that you and Fredrick Chew shared a common ancestor within the last 50 generations.

Yours may be different however.
My ysearch:  XQE85.  

It now says that I am a genetic distance of 4 from    "FEPAF" Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Within how many generations would that make our relation?

Thanks

What is your ysearch id number?

Ok.   I'll write Gatuev and let you know if I get a response.  Please do the same if you find out any information from Gatuev - ethnicity, location, etc. 

If we both match Gatuev I'm surprised that we do not have a match on ysearch. I am new at this though, so please excuse my lack of experience. 

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have send a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a L2+ Z49+ Z142+ Z150/Z12222+ (L20-,L196-,and L562-)
ysearch.org ID ZHHCY

Website:  curtisnsissy.tripod.com
saje
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 42


« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2012, 02:22:48 PM »

51 markers were compared.  Says genetic distance of 4.  This is with Gatuav.

It depends on how many markers were compared and which markers they were.  I have just gotten a match with a genetic distance of 4 with surname Chew.  The results for that one are:

You and Fredrick Chew match at 17/20 markers.

There is a 50% chance that you and Fredrick Chew shared a common ancestor within the last 50 generations.

Yours may be different however.
My ysearch:  XQE85.  

It now says that I am a genetic distance of 4 from    "FEPAF" Lak_people_+_Ossetian_Modal(?)_R1b1b2a

Within how many generations would that make our relation?

Thanks

What is your ysearch id number?

Ok.   I'll write Gatuev and let you know if I get a response.  Please do the same if you find out any information from Gatuev - ethnicity, location, etc. 

If we both match Gatuev I'm surprised that we do not have a match on ysearch. I am new at this though, so please excuse my lack of experience. 

That's amazing that you found a relative/match with the same surname.  Progress is always great and good to hear. 

It may be worth my while to contact the person that I matched - FEPAF . 

To me it seems very accurate.  Since you match at a distance of 5 out of 51 markers compared that is close enough to me considered a distant relative.

For example I tested originally with Genebase and convinced another with the same surname to test.  We are at a genetic distance of 5.  The paper trail (if correct) shows that we shared a common ancestor around 1690 in Maryland.   So if the markers are fast mutating ones the relationship could be within the last 322 years or so in my opinion.

Gatuev is the contact name attached to FEPAF and I have send a message through ysearch but no reply yet.   It could be that English is not his/her first language.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.187 seconds with 17 queries.