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alan trowel hands.
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« on: October 29, 2012, 06:27:40 PM »

I was wondering if anyone had ever done a comparison of M269* (XL23) in SE Europe to Anatolia/Asia?  It would be interesting to see if those two zones differ in variance. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 10:02:16 AM »

I am very curious about this and it doesnt seem to have had as much discussion as would be expected.  I suppose the primary interest is whether the central Balkans is a kind of retreat position for this or an origin point.  Is it higher in variance there than in say Anatolia/SW Asia? 

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 10:45:39 AM »

I was wondering if anyone had ever done a comparison of M269* (XL23) in SE Europe to Anatolia/Asia?  It would be interesting to see if those two zones differ in variance. 

Alan, I'll try to recollect early R1b and R1b-M269 branching data, but my sense is what I'd collect from DNA projects isn't representative enough to be useful.

Meanwhile, the academic studies either haven't truly tested all of the early branches with R1b and/or have very limited length haplotypes. Either case renders them not that useful as well.

We end up with just a one by one anecdotal assessment of the strange haplotypes. As Maliclavelli can tell you, I'm generally very critical of anecdotal assessments with my  response that "one does not a trend make."  However, in fairness to Maliclavelli, with such limited data that's about all we can do.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2012, 11:49:12 AM »

Here is what the numbers show from the Haplotype_Data-R-M343xU106xP312 spreadsheet.

M269* All N=22 VAR= 12.703

N=5 VAR= 9.100
R-M269*   Armenia   EE Asia Southwest
R-M269*   Syria   EE Asia Southwest
R-M269*   Turkey   EE Asia Southwest

N=8 VAR= 6.625
R-M269*   Belarus   EE East Cont Europe
R-M269*   Czech Rep   EE East Cont Europe
R-M269*   Poland   EE East Cont Europe
R-M269*   Ukraine   EE East Cont Europe

N=8 VAR= 12.7
R-M269*   Greece   EE East Mediterranean
R-M269*   Italy   EE East Mediterranean

N=5 VAR= 14
R-M269*   Italy   EE East Mediterranean

N=5 VAR= 8.9
R-M269*   Czech Rep   EE East Cont Europe
R-M269*   Ukraine   EE East Cont Europe

N=3 VAR= 2.667
R-M269*   Belarus   EE East Cont Europe
R-M269*   Poland   EE East Cont Europe

N=3 VAR= 9.1
R-M269*   Armenia   EE Asia Southwest
R-M269*   Syria   EE Asia Southwest
R-M269*   Turkey   EE Asia Southwest

N=5 VAR= 14
R-M269*   Italy   EE East Mediterranean

N=8 VAR= 15.4
R-M269*   Italy   EE East Mediterranean
R-M269*   Turkey   EE Asia Southwest

N=6 VAR= 18.64 (Removed two: Italy (south) and Italy, Sicily, Palermo)
R-M269*   Italy   EE East Mediterranean
R-M269*   Turkey   EE Asia Southwest

MJost







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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
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WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2012, 12:07:11 PM »

I notice Anatole seems to be commenting in his Arbrins paper on European M269* in this passage

Nearly all haplotypes of the subclade R-M269 6000 - 5000 ybp belonged either to R-M269* para-group, or to its down-stream subclade R-L23. The Arbins who had migrated from the east to Europe during those times mostly carried DYS393 = 12. Currently we see only those R1b1a2 (xL23) haplotypes in Eu- rope, which are derived from common ancestors who lived a maximum ~4500 ybp. Either descendants of more ancient L23 ancestors have not survived into the present time or there were none from the eastern Russian Plain, Asia Minor, and the Mid-dle east.

I take it he is saying that European M269* is not ancestral to European L23*?
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2012, 12:16:57 PM »

I understood that M269* was highest as a percentage of R1b in the central Balkans but none of that is listed in the above.  I cant remember where I got that but it was posted recently.  I think it was in Myres et al. 
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2012, 12:26:43 PM »


N=6 VAR= 18.64 (Removed two: Italy (south) and Italy, Sicily, Palermo)
R-M269*   Italy   EE East Mediterranean
R-M269*   Turkey   EE Asia Southwest

These six have five DYS393=12 and an age of:
YBP   +OR-YBP   Max-YBP
5,030.2   1,165.3   6,195.5

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2012, 04:22:07 PM »

I understood that M269* was highest as a percentage of R1b in the central Balkans but none of that is listed in the above.  I cant remember where I got that but it was posted recently.  I think it was in Myres et al.  

Here is an extract of the Myres frequency data of R1b-M269xL23 versus the total population sampled, at least as I understand it.

Kosovo___________________________ 7.9%
Germany__________________________ 5.3%
Macedonia________________________ 5.1%
Serbia___________________________ 4.4%
Lezgis (Northeast Caucasus)______ 3.2%
Switzerland Northeast____________ 3.1%
Italy____________________________ 2.9%
Iran_____________________________ 2.7%
Romanians________________________ 2.7%
Bashkirs South-Bashkortostan_____ 2.5%
Bashkirs Southeast-Bashkortostan_ 2.4%
Poland___________________________ 2.4%
Tabasarans-Northeast Caucasus____ 2.3%
Turkey-Cappadocia________________ 2.2%
Crete____________________________ 2.1%
Switzerland-Lower Rhone__________ 2.0%
Turkey___________________________ 1.9%
Herzegovina______________________ 1.4%
Bosnia___________________________ 1.3%
Greece___________________________ 1.2%
Germany South____________________ 1.1%
Slovenia_________________________ 1.0%
Germany West_____________________ 1.0%
Hungary__________________________ 0.9%
Italy North______________________ 0.8%
Italy South______________________ 0.8%
Russians Northern Russia_________ 0.8%
Jordan: Amman & Dead Sea_________ 0.7%
Ukraine West_____________________ 0.6%


If you would convert the results into a percentage R1b, you'd get different results. Germany would drop because Germany has more R1b in general. That's what some call a "substructure" analysis. I'm not sure it is a better way to look at things, but it just gives you another perspective.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 05:44:13 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2012, 04:56:26 PM »

The Myers paper references Balaresque's paper:

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages
Balaresque etal
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/

Western Turkey appears the most variant.

Maps showing dates of the spread of early farming in Europe, and the frequency and microsatellite variance of haplogroup R1b1b2. Figure 1c has the variance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/figure/pbio-1000285-g001/

Correlation of dates of Neolithic sites with hgR1b1b2 (A) frequency and (B) variance
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/figure/pbio-1000285-g004

I am loading Balaresque's haplotypes and will run the variance myself.

MJost

 
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2012, 05:13:04 PM »

While I'm at it, let's go upstream of M269 to earlier (older) branching. Here were the places that Myres showed as the highest percentage frequency of the total population for R1b-M343xM269xV88. There could be some M335 guys in this.

Kurds-Kazakhstan_________________ 13.0%
Tatars-Kazan, Russia_____________ 1.3%
Turkey-Cappadocia________________ 1.1%
Germany West_____________________ 1.0%
Slovakia (2 sets)________________ 0.7%
Ukraine West_____________________ 0.6%
Turkey___________________________ 0.6%
Romanians________________________ 0.3%

Here is R1b-V88.  Of course, it is also found in parts of Africa which isn't included in Myres' data.

Jordan: Amman & Dead Sea_________ 13.7%
Palestine________________________ 2.0%
Iran_____________________________ 0.7%
Bouches du Rhone (at mouth)______ 0.5%

... and here is the other (youthful branching) side of M269xL23. This is R1b-L23xL51 which could fit into the new subclade R1b-Z2105 (see Rocca thread on Subclades of L23.)

Bagvalals-Northeast Caucasus_____ 67.9%
Tabasarans-Northeast Caucasus____ 37.2%
Bashkirs Southeast-Bashkortostan_ 32.2%
Switzerland-Upper Rhone Valley___ 27.3%
Bashkirs Southwest-Bashkortostan_ 16.7%
Turkey-Cappadocia________________ 14.6%
Kumyks -Northeast Caucasus_______ 14.5%
Lezgis-Northeast Caucasus________ 12.9%
Komis-Perm Oblast, Russia________ 11.5%
Bashkirs South-Bashkortostan_____ 11.4%
Kosovo___________________________ 11.4%
Turkey___________________________ 11.1%
Poland___________________________ 9.5%
Greece___________________________ 8.2%
Poland East______________________ 7.7%
Tatars-Bashkortostan_____________ 7.7%
Greece___________________________ 7.1%
Italy North______________________ 6.5%
Hungary__________________________ 6.2%
Andis-Northeast Caucasus_________ 6.1%
Poland North_____________________ 5.9%
Czech Republic (2 sets)__________ 5.7%
Cossacs from Adygea______________ 5.5%
Denmark West_____________________ 5.3%
Belarus West_____________________ 5.2%
Italy South______________________ 4.8%
Iran_____________________________ 4.7%
Poland South_____________________ 4.5%
Romanians________________________ 4.5%
Osetins North-Northwest Caucasus_ 4.5%

(I cut this off at 4.5%)

Well, might as well complete the cycle. Here are the R1b-L51xL11 frequencies of the total population. This should match up with Rocca's L51* in the west thread...  at least I hope we gleaning the numbers the same way. Please, someone, spot check a few of these numbers.

Alpes de Haute Provence__________ 6.5%
Ireland East_____________________ 6.3%
France___________________________ 6.3%
Poland South_____________________ 4.5%
Italy____________________________ 2.9%
Italy North______________________ 2.4%
Switzerland-Lower Rhone Valley___ 2.0%
Valencian Community, Valencia____ 1.8%
Castille and Leon, Leon__________ 1.2%
Slovenia_________________________ 1.0%
Germany West_____________________ 1.0%
Hungary__________________________ 0.9%
Andalusia, Sevilla_______________ 0.8%
Cantabria, Santander_____________ 0.8%
Iran_____________________________ 0.7%
Slovakia (2 sets)________________ 0.7%
Crete____________________________ 0.5%
Bouches du Rhone (at mouth)______ 0.5%
Russians Northern Russia_________ 0.3%
Turkey___________________________ 0.2%


Sorry, Alan. I know you were asking for variance, but I just think the Myres/Balaresque/Busby haplotypes had just too few of STRs, not to mention the sample sizes were low in these critical areas anyway.

Perhaps you can see something in the distribution of the brothers and cousins.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2012, 06:04:04 PM »

....
If you would convert the results into a percentage R1b, you'd get different results. Germany would drop because Germany has more R1b in general. That's what some call a "substructure" analysis. I'm not sure it is a better way to look at things, but it just gives you another perspective.

Here is an graphic of that perspective but with R1b-M269 being the base. Maju did this on his blog from the Myres data a couple of years ago.


If you step back and look at this.. you may have to smoke something too..   The Austria-Hungary-Croatia-Slovenia-Serbia area looks important for the L11 clades and perhaps L23*/Z2105 just to the east or southeast.
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2012, 06:06:53 PM »

Look like Balaresque show highest variance start in and clinal movements to:

Western-TK3/Central-TK1 Turkey > Italy 1 > GE1 > NL > FR2 >NW-FR3/NNW-SP6; also NL > DK and TK1 > TK2.

Balaresque Nine (eight used x389i) Markers.

30 years per Generation

PoP Count   Founder's Age   Generations   StdDevInGen   YBP    +OR-YBP   Max-YBP   VAR   SD

Tk3          N=22   184.7   105.8   5,541.10   3,174.10   8,715.20   3.048   1.746
TK-All       N=76   157.2   97.6   4,716.40   2,928.40   7,644.80   2.594   1.611
Tk1          N=29   151.7   95.9   4,549.90   2,876.20   7,426.10   2.502   1.582
IT1           N=47   149.1   95.1   4,472.30   2,851.60   7,323.90   2.46   1.568
GE1/IT1    N=66   148.6   94.9   4,458.60   2,847.20   7,305.80   2.452   1.566
GE1          N=19   148.1   94.8   4,444.40   2,842.70   7,287.10   2.444   1.563
NL            N=34    138   91.5   4,140.30   2,743.70   6,884.00   2.277   1.509
IT-All        N=62   137.2   91.2   4,116.60   2,735.80   6,852.50   2.264   1.505
Tk2          N=25   136   90.8   4,078.80   2,723.20   6,802.00   2.243   1.498
FR2          N=27   135.4   90.6   4,061.10   2,717.30   6,778.50   2.234   1.495
FR3/SP6   N=107   128.4   88.2   3,851.20   2,646.20   6,497.30   2.118   1.455
DK/NL      N=53   128   88.1   3,839.60   2,642.20   6,481.70   2.112   1.453
FR3          N=57   127   87.7   3,809.50   2,631.80   6,441.30   2.095   1.447
SP6          N=50   126.6   87.6   3,798.10   2,627.90   6,426.00   2.089   1.445
GE-All       N=94   124.9   87   3,745.60   2,609.60   6,355.20   2.06   1.435
All-Hts     N=849   123   86.4   3,690.90   2,590.50   6,281.40   2   1.425
GE           N=75   119.2   85   3,574.80   2,549.40   6,124.20   1.966   1.402
SP5          N=45   118.2   84.6   3,546.40   2,539.30   6,085.70   1.951   1.397
FR-All       N=207   117.7   84.4   3,529.60   2,533.30   6,062.90   1.941   1.393
DK           N=19   114.8   83.4   3,445.00   2,502.70   5,947.70   1.895   1.376
EN-All       N=33   113.6   83   3,409.10   2,489.60   5,898.70   1.875   1.369
Fr7           N=33   113.6   83   3,409.10   2,489.60   5,898.70   1.875   1.369
SP-ALL     N=199   113.5   82.9   3,404.60   2,488.00   5,892.60   1.873   1.368
FR2/EN2   N=52   113.3   82.9   3,398.50   2,485.80   5,884.20   1.869   1.367
FR1          N=46   108.1   81   3,243.70   2,428.50   5,672.30   1.784   1.336
SP4          N=65   106   80.2   3,180.10   2,404.60   5,584.60   1.749   1.323
FR4          N=44   100.5   78.1   3,015.60   2,341.50   5,357.10   1.659   1.288
IT2           N=15   99.9   77.8   2,995.70   2,333.80   5,329.50   1.648   1.284
SP2          N=39   99.9   77.8   2,996.00   2,333.90   5,329.90   1.648   1.284
IR            N=75   97.5   76.9   2,924.80   2,306.00   5,230.90   1.609   1.268
SB            N=7   95.2   76   2,857.10   2,279.20   5,136.40   1.571   1.254
EN2          N=25   91.1   74.3   2,733.30   2,229.30   4,962.60   1.503   1.226
EN1         N=49   90.7   74.1   2,719.50   2,223.70   4,943.20   1.496   1.223


MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 08:55:49 AM »

I am very curious about this and it doesnt seem to have had as much discussion as would be expected.  I suppose the primary interest is whether the central Balkans is a kind of retreat position for this or an origin point.  Is it higher in variance there than in say Anatolia/SW Asia? 
Alan, or anyone, has there been any newer studies concerning

 'Anatolia is more closely related with the Balkan populations than to the Central Asian populations. Central Asian contribution to Anatolia with respect to the Balkans was quantified with an admixture analysis'

"Alu insertion polymorphisms and an assessment of the genetic contribution of Central Asia to Anatolia with respect to the Balkans."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18161848

MJost
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Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 02:08:14 PM »

....
If you would convert the results into a percentage R1b, you'd get different results. Germany would drop because Germany has more R1b in general. That's what some call a "substructure" analysis. I'm not sure it is a better way to look at things, but it just gives you another perspective.

Here is an graphic of that perspective but with R1b-M269 being the base. Maju did this on his blog from the Myres data a couple of years ago.


If you step back and look at this.. you may have to smoke something too..   The Austria-Hungary-Croatia-Slovenia-Serbia area looks important for the L11 clades and perhaps L23*/Z2105 just to the east or southeast.

Mike, I do tend to feel that this sort of approach is very useful and shows things that tends to be lost when it is looked at as a percentage of the whole population, especially if R1b is relatively rare as a whole. 

One thing that seems clear is there are patterns:

1. There is a zone where M269* and L23* are both present (Balkans, west side of Black Sea, Poland, east Med. and Anatolia)

2. An area where its nearly all L23* (around the Caucasas, Levant)

3. An area L51* just a little to the north and west of the Balkans (sorry would have to consult an Atlas as its hard in land-locked east-central Europe to recall borders)


Overall, it is tempting to see an origin in SE Eutope and spread then to Anatolia, the Caucasas and the Levant from there. However, that is of course based on frequency to some degree so very little confidence.   
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2012, 03:00:46 PM »

Overall, it is tempting to see an origin in SE Eutope and spread then to Anatolia, the Caucasas and the Levant from there. However, that is of course based on frequency to some degree so very little confidence.  

I agree we should not consider all of this to be much more than speculative.

I want to be clear about what I think of frequency. Higher frequency does not indicate an origin for ancient clade  However, this does not mean frequency is not useful.  For one thing, high frequency does show where a clade has been successful and provides a trail to an culture that may be at the end of the trail for that clade, if nothing else. Also, sufficient frequency (although I don't know how much is sufficient) indicates presence in pre-modern times so that is of some value.

The "substructure of R1b or of R1b-M269" type of analysis does show the balance of frequencies of clades per location. This effectively is a picture of SNP diversity. I think that has some value as evidence.

The one thing I get from Mahu's chart that I don't generally derive is that U106 (brown) does maintain relative strength dipping down into that Austria/Hungary/Croatia/Serbia area. It kind of meets up in a balanced mix with U152(orange) there.  P312*(DF27?)(dk green) picks up more to the west and L21 (lite green) to the west/northwest but still making some presence in the vicinity.  P312* does scatter a bit to the east/northeast from Austria/Hungary/Croatia/Serbia so U106 or some other R1b clade did not screen it off.

This area with a nice balance of R1b SNP diversity is really not limited to the NW Balkans. It looks more properly described as the Middle Danube River system and lands.

L23* (Z2105?) is dominant in Anatolia, the Near East but still maintains strength into this Middle Danube area crossing in to N. Italy as it drops off.  

M269xL23 also makes a presence, but on the SE side of the Middle Danube, and it stretches quite a ways to the east through the Near East and my guess, over into Central Asia. This could be a lot of M335.

L51* might provide different conclusions in this type of assessment. We know L51* has higher (although still quite limited) absolute frequencies in SE France but in this substructure view that area is swamped by the very high strength of L11 clades.  Meanwhile L51*, has a better relative showing in this area I'm calling the Middle Danube. See the series of thin yellow L51* slices along the Middle Danube that pretty much disappear into the L11 woodwork as you work west/northwest into France and Germany.

Various branches of R1b may have reached places like the Balkan Peninsula and Italian Peninsula, but I just don't see the L11 clades spreading via the Mediterranean.  To me, they always look like a group that followed, and possibly started along the Danube. Alternative, I guess we could say that the L11 folks were just moving east/southeast as Celtic types or something and happened to collide with some distant cousin R1b branches (and others) along the Middle Danube, but somewhere an ancient L23+ L51+ L11- guy procreated L11. If I had to pick a direction from the Alps for that to happen, I'd pick the east.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 03:06:11 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2012, 06:55:06 PM »

Overall, it is tempting to see an origin in SE Eutope and spread then to Anatolia, the Caucasas and the Levant from there. However, that is of course based on frequency to some degree so very little confidence.  

I agree we should not consider all of this to be much more than speculative.

I want to be clear about what I think of frequency. Higher frequency does not indicate an origin for ancient clade  However, this does not mean frequency is not useful.  For one thing, high frequency does show where a clade has been successful and provides a trail to an culture that may be at the end of the trail for that clade, if nothing else. Also, sufficient frequency (although I don't know how much is sufficient) indicates presence in pre-modern times so that is of some value.

The "substructure of R1b or of R1b-M269" type of analysis does show the balance of frequencies of clades per location. This effectively is a picture of SNP diversity. I think that has some value as evidence.

The one thing I get from Mahu's chart that I don't generally derive is that U106 (brown) does maintain relative strength dipping down into that Austria/Hungary/Croatia/Serbia area. It kind of meets up in a balanced mix with U152(orange) there.  P312*(DF27?)(dk green) picks up more to the west and L21 (lite green) to the west/northwest but still making some presence in the vicinity.  P312* does scatter a bit to the east/northeast from Austria/Hungary/Croatia/Serbia so U106 or some other R1b clade did not screen it off.

This area with a nice balance of R1b SNP diversity is really not limited to the NW Balkans. It looks more properly described as the Middle Danube River system and lands.

L23* (Z2105?) is dominant in Anatolia, the Near East but still maintains strength into this Middle Danube area crossing in to N. Italy as it drops off.  

M269xL23 also makes a presence, but on the SE side of the Middle Danube, and it stretches quite a ways to the east through the Near East and my guess, over into Central Asia. This could be a lot of M335.

L51* might provide different conclusions in this type of assessment. We know L51* has higher (although still quite limited) absolute frequencies in SE France but in this substructure view that area is swamped by the very high strength of L11 clades.  Meanwhile L51*, has a better relative showing in this area I'm calling the Middle Danube. See the series of thin yellow L51* slices along the Middle Danube that pretty much disappear into the L11 woodwork as you work west/northwest into France and Germany.

Various branches of R1b may have reached places like the Balkan Peninsula and Italian Peninsula, but I just don't see the L11 clades spreading via the Mediterranean.  To me, they always look like a group that followed, and possibly started along the Danube. Alternative, I guess we could say that the L11 folks were just moving east/southeast as Celtic types or something and happened to collide with some distant cousin R1b branches (and others) along the Middle Danube, but somewhere an ancient L23+ L51+ L11- guy procreated L11. If I had to pick a direction from the Alps for that to happen, I'd pick the east.



I would agree with most of that.  Interpretation borders on the impossible due to the lack of a good detailed sample and also the unbelievable complexity of so much of the history of eastern Europe and SW Asia.  I really wish there would be an academic study of R1b east of Vienna in Europe, Asia Minor, SW Asia and deep into Russia and central Asia. 
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