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Author Topic: Tutankhamun: a DF27? or semi-NS  (Read 1758 times)
spanjool
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« on: October 28, 2012, 08:11:06 AM »

The 16 loci STR haplotype of Tutankhamun has been published.
Tutan   13   24   14   11   11   14   10   13   13   17   16   14   19   10   15   12
SS ID   393   390   19   391   385a   385b   439   389i   392   389ii-i   458   437   448   GataH4   456   438
As you can see he is clearly a semi-NS cluster member.
Therefore I added his haplotype to those of the now known DF27 cases and made a tree analysis to see where he ends up.
He clearly nestled himself inside a branch which contains 18 taxons of which 16 where SRY2627. So congrats to the comrades of SRY2627: they soon will have an illustrious member inside their realms.
As Tutankhamun lived around 1300 BC (3300 ybp) he fits the predicted MRCA estimate of the SRY2627 identifying haplogroup.
Is Tutankhuman offspring of the Seapeople that invaded and destroyed Egyption and other Dysnasties around?
Are the maritime NS folks the same as these Seapeople?
Hans
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2012, 08:25:55 AM »

The 16 loci STR haplotype of Tutankhamun has been published.
Tutan   13   24   14   11   11   14   10   13   13   17   16   14   19   10   15   12
SS ID   393   390   19   391   385a   385b   439   389i   392   389ii-i   458   437   448   GataH4   456   438
As you can see he is clearly a semi-NS cluster member.
Therefore I added his haplotype to those of the now known DF27 cases and made a tree analysis to see where he ends up.
He clearly nestled himself inside a branch which contains 18 taxons of which 16 where SRY2627. So congrats to the comrades of SRY2627: they soon will have an illustrious member inside their realms.
As Tutankhamun lived around 1300 BC (3300 ybp) he fits the predicted MRCA estimate of the SRY2627 identifying haplogroup.
Is Tutankhuman offspring of the Seapeople that invaded and destroyed Egyption and other Dysnasties around?
Are the maritime NS folks the same as these Seapeople?
Hans

Published?
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OConnor
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2012, 09:11:20 AM »

How many mutational changes could we expect over 3300 years?
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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razyn
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2012, 12:21:48 PM »

I suspect that Hans may be sending us up.  But he probably did run these STR numbers through his program that compares all the haplotypes in Mike's P-312 spreadsheets.  And Tut probably does match SRY2627 better than he matches anybody else.  Whether that actually means anything, we don't have enough data about Tut to determine.  (It could well be that IBS versus IBD thing.)  But that wouldn't keep some folks here from making wild speculative leaps, e.g. about Bell Beakers (and several widely different ethnic groups of more recent centuries).  So, Hans has just made such a leap -- for purposes of discussion.

The Sea People, and incidentally the Ligurians (also good SRY2627 candidates), used to have some advocates on DNA-Forums.  At least one, I recall, is SRY2627 and lives in France.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2012, 12:48:19 PM »

The Sea People, and incidentally the Ligurians (also good SRY2627 candidates), used to have some advocates on DNA-Forums.  At least one, I recall, is SRY2627 and lives in France.

I pointed to Sardinians (Sherden) like ancestors of Tut, but they are documented like mercenaries from Ramses II (Kadesh, 1284 BC), and Tut’s Y  dates back  at least to the XVI century BC ( The pharaohs of Dynasty XVIII ruled for approximately two hundred and fifty years (c. 1550–1298 BC)). Certainly it would be interesting to have some other data, also for understaing better the history of hg. R. Anyway to try to understand which subclade by these data is probably useless. STRs have mutations backwards and forwards. Interesting is only DYS439=10.
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Maliclavelli


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spanjool
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2012, 02:19:11 AM »

The 16 loci STR haplotype of Tutankhamun has been published.
Tutan   13   24   14   11   11   14   10   13   13   17   16   14   19   10   15   12
SS ID   393   390   19   391   385a   385b   439   389i   392   389ii-i   458   437   448   GataH4   456   438
As you can see he is clearly a semi-NS cluster member.
Therefore I added his haplotype to those of the now known DF27 cases and made a tree analysis to see where he ends up.
He clearly nestled himself inside a branch which contains 18 taxons of which 16 where SRY2627. So congrats to the comrades of SRY2627: they soon will have an illustrious member inside their realms.
As Tutankhamun lived around 1300 BC (3300 ybp) he fits the predicted MRCA estimate of the SRY2627 identifying haplogroup.
Is Tutankhuman offspring of the Seapeople that invaded and destroyed Egyption and other Dysnasties around?
Are the maritime NS folks the same as these Seapeople?
Hans

Published?
Yes, in a certain way: http://www.igenea.com/en/index.php?c=62
 
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spanjool
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2012, 02:36:44 AM »

The Sea People, and incidentally the Ligurians (also good SRY2627 candidates), used to have some advocates on DNA-Forums.  At least one, I recall, is SRY2627 and lives in France.
Interesting is only DYS439=10.
I think you got a point here:
Genghis Kahn and Somerled: both known for their determined ways of dealing with their enemies are DYS439=10.
Che Guevara is DYS439=11 had violent ways of promoting is ideology.
Niall of the Nine Hostages and  Colla Ulais are DYS439=12 were peaceful leaders.
The last value is  modal for L11.
It looks as if DYS439 is a marker for violence.
Hans
PS My own DYS439 value is 14.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2012, 04:20:52 AM »

The Sea People, and incidentally the Ligurians (also good SRY2627 candidates), used to have some advocates on DNA-Forums.  At least one, I recall, is SRY2627 and lives in France.
Interesting is only DYS439=10.
I think you got a point here:
Genghis Kahn and Somerled: both known for their determined ways of dealing with their enemies are DYS439=10.
Che Guevara is DYS439=11 had violent ways of promoting is ideology.
Niall of the Nine Hostages and  Colla Ulais are DYS439=12 were peaceful leaders.
The last value is  modal for L11.
It looks as if DYS439 is a marker for violence.
Hans
PS My own DYS439 value is 14.

If Tut would have in DYS19 the values 8/14 and in DYS437 the values 9/14, he would be very different from our values.

Anyway I don’t think of course that DYS439=10 has some meaning about peace and war. It is only a low value for R1b1a2, which rotates around 11/12/13. Then 10 and 14 are what I call “mutations for the tangent” and are meaningful for this, only for this.
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Maliclavelli


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OConnor
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2012, 07:30:30 AM »

mutation to DYS439=10 is probably not a one-time event. It could have happened a number of times, to different people.

 about Somerled and Niall.
There is probably some reasonable doubt about their advertised dna sequences, and perhaps even if one or both ever actually existed.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2012, 08:42:47 AM »

It looks to me like this is based on the same grainy video that made the blog rounds years ago. Until Egypt releases Tut's Y-DNA (and I doubt they ever will), it is difficult to speculate what haplogroup he belonged to let alone single STR values.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2012, 09:38:46 AM »

mutation to DYS439=10 is probably not a one-time event

Of course you are free to think what you want, but a deep knowledge of the STRs values of the various hgs should make us think that, as in DYS391 the mutations have happened above all around the values 10 and 11, in the DYS439 this has happened above all around the values 11-12-13. For this any of these values doesn’t say to us how many mutations have happened.

I have DYS439=12, but by comparing my value with those who are closer to me, probably my value of 12 derives from 13 and that 13 probably derives from a previous 12 etc. For this there are many hidden mutations which aren’t counted in your calculations.

When we find in hg R the values under 11 or higher that 13, we have mutations gone for the tangent, and they are very meaningful for understanding those clusters. The same has happened for many other markers.
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Maliclavelli


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acekon
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2012, 09:58:03 AM »

6RBET-Tutankhamun   Egypt-Other - Applied Biosciences 
ER7RQ-Tutankhamun   Valley of the Kings, Luxor (Al Uqsur), Egypt-   Other - iGENEA 
UH2BK-   18th dynasty of Egypt   Thebes, Egypt-Other - Applied Biosystems 
The results posted on y-search with the tested firms.
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razyn
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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2012, 10:24:36 AM »

It is only a low value for R1b1a2, which rotates around 11/12/13. Then 10 and 14 are what I call “mutations for the tangent” and are meaningful for this, only for this.

Your golden rule is based on modals, which are based on sampling the survivors of all the intervening bottlenecks and expansions.  By definition the bulk of the surviving descendants of R1b1a2 are going to have what the bulk of them have (giving us this modal).  That tautology doesn't really prove a thing, about ancient R1b1a2 or otherwise.  The "mutations for the tangent" demonstrate that mutations can diverge from this (entirely modern) modal, but we already knew that, e.g. from observing tubeworms and fruit flies.

Tut's Y-DNA actually could prove something -- if we could get a little more refinement and higher level reading of his sample.  Whether it proves it about R1b - DF27, or some other clade (possibly now extinct), remains to be seen.  Hans is out on a shaky limb here, about Tut's being similar to the North/South cluster -- but intentionally so.  If his casual observation turns out to be correct, that could be a pretty interesting data point.  We still have very few R samples that old.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2012, 10:28:24 AM »

6RBET-Tutankhamun   Egypt-Other - Applied Biosciences 
ER7RQ-Tutankhamun   Valley of the Kings, Luxor (Al Uqsur), Egypt-   Other - iGENEA 
UH2BK-   18th dynasty of Egypt   Thebes, Egypt-Other - Applied Biosystems 
The results posted on y-search with the tested firms.

They are all based on the same grainy video. If the results were in any way "scientific", they would have been published in a paper like the Otzi results were. No geneticist is going to pass up the accolade that would come with publishing the Y-DNA results of Tut.
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acekon
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2012, 11:55:20 AM »

6RBET-Tutankhamun   Egypt-Other - Applied Biosciences 
ER7RQ-Tutankhamun   Valley of the Kings, Luxor (Al Uqsur), Egypt-   Other - iGENEA 
UH2BK-   18th dynasty of Egypt   Thebes, Egypt-Other - Applied Biosystems 
The results posted on y-search with the tested firms.

They are all based on the same grainy video. If the results were in any way "scientific", they would have been published in a paper like the Otzi results were. No geneticist is going to pass up the accolade that would come with publishing the Y-DNA results of Tut.

Who controls the rights to release the results, Applied Biosystems, iGENEA, the Egyptian Government? Why the secrecy, in clarifying the validity of the result's?
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2012, 12:06:36 PM »

6RBET-Tutankhamun   Egypt-Other - Applied Biosciences 
ER7RQ-Tutankhamun   Valley of the Kings, Luxor (Al Uqsur), Egypt-   Other - iGENEA 
UH2BK-   18th dynasty of Egypt   Thebes, Egypt-Other - Applied Biosystems 
The results posted on y-search with the tested firms.

They are all based on the same grainy video. If the results were in any way "scientific", they would have been published in a paper like the Otzi results were. No geneticist is going to pass up the accolade that would come with publishing the Y-DNA results of Tut.

Who controls the rights to release the results, Applied Biosystems, iGENEA, the Egyptian Government? Why the secrecy, in clarifying the validity of the result's?

Solely the Egyptian government.
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Curtis Pigman(Pigmon)
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2012, 05:48:38 PM »

The Sea People, and incidentally the Ligurians (also good SRY2627 candidates), used to have some advocates on DNA-Forums.  At least one, I recall, is SRY2627 and lives in France.

I pointed to Sardinians (Sherden) like ancestors of Tut, but they are documented like mercenaries from Ramses II (Kadesh, 1284 BC), and Tut’s Y  dates back  at least to the XVI century BC ( The pharaohs of Dynasty XVIII ruled for approximately two hundred and fifty years (c. 1550–1298 BC)). Certainly it would be interesting to have some other data, also for understaing better the history of hg. R. Anyway to try to understand which subclade by these data is probably useless. STRs have mutations backwards and forwards. Interesting is only DYS439=10.
I tend to agree with your Sardinian option.  The Kings of Tyre were appointed by the Egyptians as they controlled the Canaanites at that time.  There are documented ruins of Phoenician settlements on the Island of Sardinia.  The Phoenicians(Canaanites) were comprised of different ethnicities and religions.  There are even remains of a Phoenician Jewish temple on there as well as the Nora stone which documents the battle of Milkaton a son of Shubna whose King is Pumayathon (Phoenician King of Tyre known to the Greeks as Pygmalion).  On DNA-forums I used the Nora stone as my avatar.
from:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_of_Tyre
A possible reference to Pygmalion is an interpretation of the Nora Stone, found on Sardinia in 1773 and, though its precise finding place has been forgotten, dated by paleographic methods to the 9th century BC.[2] Frank Moore Cross has interpreted the Phoenician inscription on this stone as follows:[3]

    [a. He fought (?)]
    [b. with the Sardinians (?)]
    1. at Tarshish
    2. and he drove them out.
    3. Among the Sardinians
    4. he is [now] at peace,
    5. (and) his army is at peace:
    6. Milkaton son of
    7. Shubna (Shebna), general
    8. of (king) Pummay.

In this rendering, Cross has restored the missing top of the tablet (estimated at two lines) based on the content of the rest of the inscription, as referring to a battle that has been fought and won[4] by general Milkaton, son of Shubna, against the Sardinians at the site of TRSS, surely Tarshish; Cross conjectures that Tarshish here "is most easily understood as the name of a refinery town in Sardinia, presumably Nora or an ancient site nearby."[3] He presents evidence that the name PMY ("Pummay") in the last line is a shortened form (hypocoristicon) of the name of Shubna's king, containing only the divine name, a method of shortening “not rare in Phoenician and related Canaanite dialects.”.[5] Since there was only one king of Tyre with this hypocoristicon in the 9th century BC, Cross restores the name to pmy(y)tn or p‘mytn, which is rendered in the Greek tradition as Pygmalion. This interpretation of the Nora Stone provides additional evidence that in the late 9th century BC, Tyre was involved in colonizing the western Mediterranean, lending credence to the establishment of a colony in Carthage in that time frame.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 06:00:23 PM by Curtis Pigman(Pigmon) » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2012, 06:02:10 AM »

The 16 loci STR haplotype of Tutankhamun has been published.
Tutan   13   24   14   11   11   14   10   13   13   17   16   14   19   10   15   12
SS ID   393   390   19   391   385a   385b   439   389i   392   389ii-i   458   437   448   GataH4   456   438
As you can see he is clearly a semi-NS cluster member.
Therefore I added his haplotype to those of the now known DF27 cases and made a tree analysis to see where he ends up.
He clearly nestled himself inside a branch which contains 18 taxons of which 16 where SRY2627. So congrats to the comrades of SRY2627: they soon will have an illustrious member inside their realms.
As Tutankhamun lived around 1300 BC (3300 ybp) he fits the predicted MRCA estimate of the SRY2627 identifying haplogroup.
Is Tutankhuman offspring of the Seapeople that invaded and destroyed Egyption and other Dysnasties around?
Are the maritime NS folks the same as these Seapeople?
Hans

I claim all his gold! LOL. Seriously, I have had dreams of being in Egypt, but working as a slave on a pyramid--unfortunately. It really would be interesting to see if the footage of the results was actual results and not stock footage. If it's not King Tut's DNA results, then who does it belong to?

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