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Author Topic: Origins of European R1b: delusions vs. reality  (Read 5550 times)
polako
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« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2012, 05:11:44 AM »

^ I hypothesize how it went down in my latest blog entry...

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/geographic-peaks-in-european-y-dna.html
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 05:40:52 AM by polako » Logged
Alpine
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« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2012, 06:09:01 AM »

^ I hypothesize how it went down in my latest blog entry...

http://polishgenes.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/geographic-peaks-in-european-y-dna.html

what I see from this is that R1b was the main haplogroup that took the neaderthal west, and R1a took the east. the white areas where avenues of migration, a mix of many haplotype...along the danube and along the rhine.
The germans moved south from Denmark and would have very little original R1b.
This marker could only be gallic/celtic later.

As for R1a, the east-germanic tribes where R1a from the goths, luguii, lombards, burgundians and bastanae ( which reached the black sea ).  this would explain the proto  germanic-slavic language.

As for the balkans, hmm unsure,  Illyrian I2a maybe, but KenN states IIRC this marker was pushed south by the R1a ....indicating that I HG was in europe prior to R

The map has some merit, but it has far more questions
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 06:10:30 AM by Alpine » Logged

YDna = T1a2b (L446)
MtDNA = H2a1c (haplofind)

polako
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« Reply #77 on: October 27, 2012, 06:42:00 AM »

As for R1a, the east-germanic tribes where R1a from the goths, luguii, lombards, burgundians and bastanae ( which reached the black sea ).  this would explain the proto  germanic-slavic language.

East Germanics are a myth, and there's no such thing as a proto Germanic-Slavic language.

Goths were just Germans who gathered near the Roman frontier, and then moved into the Balkans and Ukraine via routes south of the Carpathians. But most vacated Eastern Europe later, as we all know.
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Alpine
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« Reply #78 on: October 27, 2012, 07:01:14 AM »

As for R1a, the east-germanic tribes where R1a from the goths, luguii, lombards, burgundians and bastanae ( which reached the black sea ).  this would explain the proto  germanic-slavic language.

East Germanics are a myth, and there's no such thing as a proto Germanic-Slavic language.

Goths were just Germans who gathered near the Roman frontier, and then moved into the Balkans and Ukraine via routes south of the Carpathians. But most vacated Eastern Europe later, as we all know.

as per Polish and Swedish Archeologists, there findings indicate clearly where the goths where, the goths originated in the lands between the oder and nogat river along the coast ( basically all of pommerania) , part of these goths then migrated into sweden and gotland, they then went back to the vistula delta, they then march to the black sea absorbing the germanic bastanae people and they then settled on the north side of the black sea for about 200 plus years,  then they pushed into the balkans , then italy, then france , then Spain .
They split into 2 main divisions, the ostro-goths ( east goths ) and the visi-goths ( west goths ).
They always absorbed other people into their armies. So they where part of the people that took many haplotype around europe.

Goths where never in central europe or western germany
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YDna = T1a2b (L446)
MtDNA = H2a1c (haplofind)

polako
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« Reply #79 on: October 27, 2012, 07:08:27 AM »

as per Polish and Swedish Archeologists, there findings indicate clearly where the goths where, the goths originated in the lands between the oder and nogat river along the coast ( basically all of pommerania) , part of these goths then migrated into sweden and gotland, they then went back to the vistula delta, they then march to the black sea absorbing the germanic bastanae people and they then settled on the north side of the black sea.

Pure speculation. There's really no evidence for any of this.
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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2012, 08:53:24 AM »

as per Polish and Swedish Archeologists, there findings indicate clearly where the goths where, the goths originated in the lands between the oder and nogat river along the coast ( basically all of pommerania) , part of these goths then migrated into sweden and gotland, they then went back to the vistula delta, they then march to the black sea absorbing the germanic bastanae people and they then settled on the north side of the black sea.

Pure speculation. There's really no evidence for any of this.


We are all aware of the pre-WWI maps of Germany with large areas of modern day northern Poland belonging to Germany (Prussia). Is there a sense of how much of the population was really German as opposed to Poles?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 08:53:53 AM by Richard Rocca » Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
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polako
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« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2012, 09:20:59 AM »

We are all aware of the pre-WWI maps of Germany with large areas of modern day northern Poland belonging to Germany (Prussia). Is there a sense of how much of the population was really German as opposed to Poles?

Plz take a look at this map of Northern Poland from 1000 AD. Not many Germans there at the time, I can assure you. Those were the good old days.

img135.imageshack.us/img135/1669/cmentarzedruzyn.png

Although granted, what is now Northeastern Poland was ethnically Baltic-speaking at the time. However, modern Poles from the area carry the genes of those Prussian Balts, and in fact, of the Mesolithic hunter gatherers who contributed to the makeup of those Balts.

"The HVS-I sequence of Dudka 2 (Poland) is 16189c 16270t. It is classified here as U5b1. This subclade has been observed in several European populations, including those of the study region of prehistoric samples (Figure S1A).

...

The sequence of Drestwo 2 from North-Eastern Europe (Poland) with HVS-I motif 16192t 16256t 16270t has been observed among contemporary Polish and in surrounding populations (Figure S1A)."

Bramanti et al. 2009
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 09:59:37 AM by polako » Logged
Alpine
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« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2012, 02:42:17 PM »

We are all aware of the pre-WWI maps of Germany with large areas of modern day northern Poland belonging to Germany (Prussia). Is there a sense of how much of the population was really German as opposed to Poles?

Plz take a look at this map of Northern Poland from 1000 AD. Not many Germans there at the time, I can assure you. Those were the good old days.

img135.imageshack.us/img135/1669/cmentarzedruzyn.png

Although granted, what is now Northeastern Poland was ethnically Baltic-speaking at the time. However, modern Poles from the area carry the genes of those Prussian Balts, and in fact, of the Mesolithic hunter gatherers who contributed to the makeup of those Balts.

"The HVS-I sequence of Dudka 2 (Poland) is 16189c 16270t. It is classified here as U5b1. This subclade has been observed in several European populations, including those of the study region of prehistoric samples (Figure S1A).

...

The sequence of Drestwo 2 from North-Eastern Europe (Poland) with HVS-I motif 16192t 16256t 16270t has been observed among contemporary Polish and in surrounding populations (Figure S1A)."

Bramanti et al. 2009

There was history prior to 1000AD, !

The goths ( most of them ) left northern Poland for the black sea area ( bascially Moldova) around 200AD. The Rugii tribe from Norway replaced them and these rugii also moved and settled later into eastern austria replacing the lombards who moved into northern Italy.

There where no austrians before 1000AD - The austrians where bascially Bavarians, who in pre Roman times where not germans, but where the people called Vindelici who created the La Tene culture and some say also the first celtic culture.

so, in BC times , between the Oder and Nogat river where the east-germanic GOTHS, then there where the Venedi ( who's DNA is the same as the Kvens of western Finland) then the Aestii ( who where Amber traders to the adriatic - i.e. Amber road), then other baltic tribes Samogitia area, then more Venedi around modern Latvia , ......bascially after the Goths , where all Baltic or Finnic people along the coast.
The Poles ( one of the original Slavic people along with the ukraines ) departed from the east of Kiev and migrated into modern Poland after the goths departed. Its stated historically, the Goths absorbed Aestii, Venedi and Bastanae into their armies and marched to the Black sea.

The Goths DNA ( mostly R1a and I1 ) in the gothic-vistula/pommeranian area is the same DNA as in modern croatia, slovenia and northern Italy. Thats because Theodoric the gothic king settled his ostrogoths in these area after conquering the Romans.

Genetics and history does not start after the fall of the Roman empire, its starts much earlier
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YDna = T1a2b (L446)
MtDNA = H2a1c (haplofind)

polako
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« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2012, 07:50:17 PM »

The Poles ( one of the original Slavic people along with the ukraines ) departed from the east of Kiev and migrated into modern Poland after the goths departed.

There was a Polanie tribe in what is now Ukraine, and a Polanie tribe in Western Poland. The only thing they had in common was the name - people of the plains.

So there was no migration of the Polanie to Poland, because they were already there.

BTW, the frequency and STR and SNP diversity of R-M458 shows that it didn't arrive in Poland from Ukraine. It comes from Poland or even from Eastern Germany, it's the most common Y-DNA haplogroup in Poland today, and certainly not a Germanic marker.
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polako
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« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2012, 01:54:01 AM »

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« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 08:27:48 AM by Terry Barton » Logged
Alpine
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« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2012, 05:50:48 AM »

[Message section removed]. Terry

the gothic I marker I1 -Z63 is found in the goth homeland, and all the travels including North Italy...kenN made the same remarks in rootsweb some time around the middle of the year.
The only true ancient north italians where the Ligurians, .....all the others are foreigners , the ligurians had to face the etruscans, veneti, celtic, illyrians, rhaetians and gallic invasion even before the Romans appeared.

The goths brought some DNA to north Italy, but the bulk was the east-germanic Lombards.

A good test would be to see if the lombards of North Italy and the burgundians of france have any similar Dna , they are both east-germanic tribes.......then again , 1600 years is a long time to get a clear picture
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 08:29:57 AM by Terry Barton » Logged

YDna = T1a2b (L446)
MtDNA = H2a1c (haplofind)

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2012, 06:14:47 AM »

Polako.  Thats not much of a thesis.  Basically a distribution map with a few lines of comment. Any model has to take into account phylogeny based on SNPs, STRs etc which at least built some sort of tree which can be used and then distribution looked at.  I also think variance may not be perfect but it at least can give relative ages of one area compared to another even if the absolute dating is still not agreed.  At present the only formal papers that have had a good go at unravelling bery detailed R1b and R1a history from a mathematical point of view are those of Klyosov.  I am not saying he is right but noone else has had such a determined crack at it.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 06:19:00 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Richard Rocca
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« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2012, 08:23:18 AM »

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« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 09:37:59 AM by Terry Barton » Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
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