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Author Topic: Origins of European R1b: delusions vs. reality  (Read 4427 times)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2012, 06:25:19 PM »

Remember you have to be consistent. You have still not shown any ancient physical proof[ancient snp results] of your claim that r-m269 originated in whatever area of Levant of your choosing;until just recently we did not have any tangible proof R-m269 until Kromsdorf, so who is to say what results will be found in the future. In fact the same logic can be equally applied to another broad based European snp, namely r-m429 with the bulk of it's distribution not in Europe but in Levant and Africa, and yet everyone agrees and does not question that it has been in Europe for x amount of years longer than r-m269 based on theoretical nodes/branches[IJ] and theoretical mutation rates of str's.

How about going one step back and in snp's to where you think R1a and R1b actually split M173 into 343 and 420 do you think this also happened in Levant?

I don't believe I've shown any inconsistency.

There's simply no evidence of R1b expanding from the steppe, but based on ancient DNA results to date, and current distributions of basal M269 clades, there are very strong hints of an origin somewhere in the Near East, and then dispersals via southern routes, including via the Mediterranean and North Africa, to Western Europe. 

The ancient DNA results positive for M269 are very few indeed, but they can't be viewed in isolation from the 100% negative results from the steppes, nor from the aforementioned current distributions of basal clades of M269, and even current frequency peaks in all M269 clades.

Simply, there's no argument for steppe origins and/or expansions of M269. Not even a minor hint of such a thing.

There are no results from the steppes pre-c.2000BC, by which time a hell of a lot had happened.  Indeed, Anthony notes all of the saetem languages originated with a west to east thrust through the forrest steppe (originating around the Carpathians) c. 2800-2000BC).  In other works all the current specific saetem major branches of IE have roots west of the steppes prior to 2800BC according to Anthony.  Anthony's book (which is currently treated as a bible - maybe too much) does not see corded ware and many other groups in non-steppes eastern Europe as Kurgan-derived.  Neither does Anatole Klyosov whose latest idea sees R1a as moving from its very eastern homeland through the Himalayas, through Anatolia, into the Balkans and then finally into the steppes.  That suggests R1a entered the Neolithic farmers of eastern Europe and only moved into Russian, Belarus, the Baltic states, Ukraine etc after that.  In other words it was not the DNA of the Ukrainian hunter gatherers but got into that area from movements from SE or east-central Europe.  I think that is not at all impossible.  Funny enough it also sounds very plausible for R1b.  The modern pattern of R1a and R1b in Europe may well have very little to do with pre[5000BC times and indeed largely be due to movements after 3000BC.  Prior to that maybe as Anatole suggest they both arrived through Anatolia into SE Europe with R1a settling around the Carpathians and M269* and L23* settling somewhere like the central Balkans/Dinaric area.  I was thinking about Anatoly's model and the best fit I can think of for his passing of R1a and R1b into the Balkans and Carpathians from Anatolia would be if both passed into those areas c. 5000BC and a little later with the group of Anatolian linked culture of the Balkans and just to the north. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2012, 06:42:41 PM »

Also if we are going to be called aR(1)Bins I think you lot should be called the R(1)Abble :0)
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2012, 07:21:13 PM »

The idea of steppe-envy among R1b people makes me laugh anyway.  Why on earth would someone find the most backwards place in Neolithic Europe more attractive than a Mesopotamian or Balkans one? 
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OConnor
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2012, 07:40:18 PM »

I am no scientist. At best i'm an armchair dna genealogist with archaeology interests.
Much of what I have to say comes from a hunch which is the least reliable of all.

But as an observer I would question R1a and R1b's ancestors as a possible source of migration. Perhaps looking beyond M173 to haplo group Q.

Perhaps Q has not been idle during the millenias and new surroundings may cloud  the origins and lead us to different conclusions.

I suspect the ancientness of R1b subclades east of Europe, when compared with weatern counter parts could show a dividing line of when R1b migrated, or seperated between East and west subclades. Did R1b go east?..or west? I think we have to look at Q and previous haplogroups in hopes of a  hint at geographical orientation.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 07:44:38 PM by OConnor » Logged

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Richard Rocca
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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2012, 07:56:18 PM »

What makes you confident that this pattern will not be repeated other than speculation?

Because it would be a complete turnaround from what we've seen to date, and wouldn't match the distribution and frequencies of M269 clades across West Eurasia. Sure, miracles do happen, but I think it's more useful to be pragmatic.

And I'm not particularly interested in proving the origins of M269 in the Near East, simply because I don't have much interest in M269. But the fact that many people are trying to force its presence in the ancient cultures of Eastern Europe does intrigue me, although I'm starting to think this has more to do with some sort of mass hallucination than any objective assessment of the relevant facts.

No, many people are not trying to force an R1b-western steppe link. If it's 50% of the folks that post here, I'd be surprised.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2012, 08:45:53 PM »

“The Iberomaurusians did not originate in the Near East nor the Egyptian Sudan. Neither did they come from Spain via the Strait of Gibraltar. They are probably Italian Epigravettians, who landed in Tunisia 24,000 years ago. From there, they spread towards the west (Morocco) and the east (the Egyptian Sudan), taking the place of the Aterian aborigines. Their ancestors were Aterians who, ca 50,000 years ago, possibly also making use of a marine regression, had reached the northern shores of the Mediterranean and had gradually replaced the original Neanderthal population of that area”.

@ Pigmon
Many thanks for this paper of 1985, which I didn’t know. This would explain many things. My theory of the Italian Refugium didn’t go back so much, not to the LGM but to the Younger Dryas. With many people here and on other forums who thought that R1b was a few thousands years old to go back to the Younger Dryas was already much. But this was the idea I wrote to Fulvio Cruciani about the R-V88+ in Africa.
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polako
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2012, 09:03:18 PM »

The idea of steppe-envy among R1b people makes me laugh anyway.  Why on earth would someone find the most backwards place in Neolithic Europe more attractive than a Mesopotamian or Balkans one? 

Because having steppe cowboys with blond hair as ancient ancestors is a more interesting option for a lot of people.

Don't tell me you wouldn't have loved to see at least a couple of R1b results amongst all those R1a hits from the Siberian kurgans. Actually, that's a rhetorical question, because I already know the answer.
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princenuadha
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« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2012, 09:07:55 PM »

Quote from: polako
So just a simple comparison like this should tell us straight away that the Eastern European steppe is not much of a contender for M269 origins or even any major dispersals.

So logically m269 must be native to Western Europe, right? Oh wait, but then how did m269 to Europe from Africa and the Levant... Oh, that's right, you say a select group came and expanded. But then why were we eliminating Eastern Europe as a candidate? Very consistent.

Polako, we both know how to troll. I'd rather we reason, but nobody can do that with your ridiculously framed question. We might as well stop talking about r1a, g2a, I, and so on because there is no harddddd proof.

The circumstantial evidence does look good for r1b coming from eastern Europe. Note that I'm not saying this makes western Europeans like modern day eastern Europeans. You keep thinking that.... but its based on the idea of continuity and homogeneity in eastern Europe.

The hard evidence does point to great discontinuity in central & western Europe, Poland included, during the neolithic and bronze age. (Though I'm thinking that r1a1a might have already been in Poland at very late neolithic.)

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princenuadha
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« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2012, 09:22:57 PM »

"Because having steppe cowboys with blond hair as ancient ancestors is a more interesting option for a lot of people."

Oh, you're projecting a lot more than that! You think "we" want to be like East Europeans (past or present), doubtful... If anything it would likely be the desire to separate from other groups.
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polako
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« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2012, 09:35:50 PM »

Oh, you're projecting a lot more than that! You think "we" want to be like East Europeans (past or present), doubtful... If anything it would likely be the desire to separate from other groups.

Sure I'm projecting. In fact, when full genome sequences of those Andronovo nomads come back, and they don't show a striking resemblance in terms of genome-wide markers to Poles, Lithuanians, Russians, Ukrainians, Erzya, Moksha, etc... then I'll be in shock. But I have no doubt that they will.

However, that doesn't change anything about what I'm saying here. I know many Western European genetic genealogists would pefer to have those guys as recent paternal ancestors than Middle Eastern or Mediterranean farmers.

That's just the way it is. Don't shoot the messenger.
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polako
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« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2012, 09:47:20 PM »

There are no results from the steppes pre-c.2000BC, by which time a hell of a lot had happened.

There are Neolithic and Bronze Age mtDNA results from the Western steppe. Interestingly, these lineages are ancestral to the mtDNA in the later Siberian Andronovo kurgans, and they also show pretty good correlation with modern Eastern European lineages.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 09:47:45 PM by polako » Logged
Jaska
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« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2012, 09:56:31 PM »

Nice to see a straight challenge from Polako. :)
So far no claims for the steppe origin seen here...

Quote from: Polako
Indeed, I'll ask that STR diversity of R1b clades not be mentioned in this thread, as it obviously doesn't qualify (see the Busby et al. paper for more details why STR diversity is not a reliable means of inferring the origins of Y-DNA haplogroups).
True, STR-diversity alone is meaningless, unless one can distinguish the STR-haplotypes as reconstructed lineages. Diversity should only be calculated by lineage; otherwise it is as pointless as calculating the common diversity for R1b and N1c.

Has anybody reconstructed the R1b STR-haplotype tree? Where are the oldest, basal haplotypes found? (The ones closest to the founder haplotype for R1b as a whole or some European subhaplogroup.)
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« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2012, 12:46:52 AM »

But the fact that older clades and higher STR diversity are found in Eastern and especially Southeastern Europe is a massive red herring, because this is due to the isolation-by-distance effect. In other words, because Southeastern Europe is closer to Anatolia than Western Europe, it received migrants with all sorts of R1b clades well into historic times, but these lineages were not ancestral to those in Western and Central Europe. ...

Is this "isolation-by-distance effect" that creates "higher STR diversity" in the east hypothesized and validated by any papers?

Are you saying that higher diversity is in SE Europe or in Anatolia or in Western Europe?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 12:48:21 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2012, 12:57:58 AM »

...
However, that doesn't change anything about what I'm saying here. I know many Western European genetic genealogists would pefer to have those guys as recent paternal ancestors than Middle Eastern or Mediterranean farmers....

The idea of steppe-envy among R1b people makes me laugh anyway.  Why on earth would someone find the most backwards place in Neolithic Europe more attractive than a Mesopotamian or Balkans one? 

Because having steppe cowboys with blond hair as ancient ancestors is a more interesting option for a lot of people....

You are making an accusation to the effect that there are genealogists that have biases. Some may, but if you are going to make an accusation, please be specific as to who you are accusing and what evidence you have of their bias. No generalities, please. They are of little value.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 01:33:49 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2012, 01:12:16 AM »

Make no mistake, R1b was already in Western Europe before the early Indo-Europeans.

Your words "make no mistake" are quite assertive. Do you have any hard evidence that R1b was in Western Europe before the arrival of early Indo-Europeans?

Regardless of your answer to that, do you have any hard evidence that R1b was not an element among the Indo-Europeans that arrived in Western Europe?
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« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2012, 01:16:02 AM »

Where do you think R1b originated and why?

I think R1b originated in the Fertile Crescent. I also think it spread into Europe mostly during the Neolithic via North Africa, Mediterranean maritime routes and the Balkans.

What evidence do you have that R1b spread into Europe via North Africa in any signficant way? Have you found higher STR diversity in North Africa or have you have found predecessor branches of the European R1b clades there?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 01:16:23 AM by Mikewww » Logged

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princenuadha
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« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2012, 01:31:32 AM »

Quote
Sure I'm projecting.

I meant that you are projecting intentions onto "them", intentions which are far greater than mere amusement over a steppe origin. Alan trowel hands asked you why that would even be the case, given our current understanding of history. I understand that some of those types are out there, but its hard to see the steppes as inherently appealing.

Additionally, you seem to project the idea that western Europeans want to be closer to Eastern Europeans and/or take Eastern European heritage away from modern East Europeans.

You react very strongly when jean claims that slavic came into Poland, or when some similar claim is made. She doesn't have some nationalistic motive, but that's besides the point. You yourself are acting very nationalistic. You are engaged, on your own accord, in the importance of whose ancestors did what and where they came from. You find pride in it. You also want to take away certain people's pride over their believed heritage and not just their version of the factual events. In short, you yourself are involved in this boasting game and engaging Western Europeans.

I'll tell you what I think is on their mind. I think they want a unique heritage, and then they will call that one the best. I don't think they care to be like EE or to "take away" EE heritage. So if you prove that only eastern Europeans have steppe heritage you will shatter their vision but things won't change...

Also, Alan Trowel Hands and I have been considering the idea that Andronovo is very much linked to CW and that their auDNA would be closer to Poles and Ukranians.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 01:34:02 AM by princenuadha » Logged
polako
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« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2012, 02:10:42 AM »

Quote
I'll tell you what I think is on their mind. I think they want a unique heritage, and then they will call that one the best.

My god, that is a pointless ambition, because Western Europeans are about as mixed as it gets. They're not even all that closely related to each other as many people think. The reason they often cluster together on many plots is because they're pushed into the same space due to high IBD sharing between Eastern, and especially Northeastern, Europeans.

This will become clearer to most people as they learn to interpret results from various analyses more correctly. At the moment complex genetic substructures are taken for lack of substructure, because… it kinda looks like that on a plot.

And I'd hate to break this to you, but most Western Europeans do have Eastern European ancestry aplenty, except Sardinians. Even Basques have it. And I don't mean the old kind of Eastern European ancestry, which you think no longer exists in Eastern Europe. I mean the old kind that modern Eastern Europeans still carry today.

[paragraph deleted because of ethnic slur.  3 day ban]  Terry
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Arwunbee
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« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2012, 03:44:22 AM »

Hey, anyone out there know where I can get an R1a transplant?  I just gotta get me some Steppe Origins right now baby!
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« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2012, 07:56:42 AM »

Quote
I'll tell you what I think is on their mind. I think they want a unique heritage, and then they will call that one the best.

My god, that is a pointless ambition, because Western Europeans are about as mixed as it gets. They're not even all that closely related to each other as many people think. The reason they often cluster together on many plots is because they're pushed into the same space due to high IBD sharing between Eastern, and especially Northeastern, Europeans.

This will become clearer to most people as they learn to interpret results from various analyses more correctly. At the moment complex genetic substructures are taken for lack of substructure, because… it kinda looks like that on a plot.

And I'd hate to break this to you, but most Western Europeans do have Eastern European ancestry aplenty, except Sardinians. Even Basques have it. And I don't mean the old kind of Eastern European ancestry, which you think no longer exists in Eastern Europe. I mean the old kind that modern Eastern Europeans still carry today.

However, the problem is that R1b didn't come with this Eastern European ancestry. R1b came with what the British once called "wog" ancestry.


Polako, it seems like you are the only one here with 'delusions'. After multiple people have told you that they aren't sold on the R1b from the steppe theory, you keep on insisting that there is a mass movement by "Western European genealogists" to push for that agenda. Clearly that is not the case. The people that post on this R1b forum have been at this long enough to know that everything is still very much in the air for R1b and you can tell by the maturity level of the posts. This isn't Rootsweb circa 2005. Unfortunately, you are bringing the topics back to 2005 by instigating a discussion that really has very few people on this other side.
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« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2012, 02:15:40 PM »

Quote
I'll tell you what I think is on their mind. I think they want a unique heritage, and then they will call that one the best.

My god, that is a pointless ambition, because Western Europeans are about as mixed as it gets. They're not even all that closely related to each other as many people think. The reason they often cluster together on many plots is because they're pushed into the same space due to high IBD sharing between Eastern, and especially Northeastern, Europeans.

This will become clearer to most people as they learn to interpret results from various analyses more correctly. At the moment complex genetic substructures are taken for lack of substructure, because… it kinda looks like that on a plot.

And I'd hate to break this to you, but most Western Europeans do have Eastern European ancestry aplenty, except Sardinians. Even Basques have it. And I don't mean the old kind of Eastern European ancestry, which you think no longer exists in Eastern Europe. I mean the old kind that modern Eastern Europeans still carry today.

However, the problem is that R1b didn't come with this Eastern European ancestry. R1b came with what the British once called "wog" ancestry.


Polako, it seems like you are the only one here with 'delusions'. After multiple people have told you that they aren't sold on the R1b from the steppe theory, you keep on insisting that there is a mass movement by "Western European genealogists" to push for that agenda. Clearly that is not the case. The people that post on this R1b forum have been at this long enough to know that everything is still very much in the air for R1b and you can tell by the maturity level of the posts. This isn't Rootsweb circa 2005. Unfortunately, you are bringing the topics back to 2005 by instigating a discussion that really has very few people on this other side.

Richard, we are probably wasting our time. Polako says he's not much interested in the origin of M269 anyway. It's a wonder why he wants to post on this, the "R1b and Subclades" forum.

... And I'm not particularly interested in proving the origins of M269 in the Near East, simply because I don't have much interest in M269. But the fact that many people are trying to force its presence in the ancient cultures of Eastern Europe does intrigue me, although I'm starting to think this has more to do with some sort of mass hallucination than any objective assessment of the relevant facts.

Perhaps the problem is he off-topic for this forum if he is interested more in peoples' motivations and perceived hallucinations. Maybe a good discussion forum for this would be PsychologyToday.com.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 03:02:28 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2012, 02:41:50 PM »

I have seen a chart on Europedia that shows M269 as being from the Pontic Steppe. That chart is a real as can be.
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« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2012, 03:03:52 PM »

I have seen a chart on Europedia that shows M269 as being from the Pontic Steppe. That chart is a real as can be.
Are you talking about Maciamo's hypotheses or someone elses? Can you refer to it? What are you trying to say about that chart? There are many charts with many things on them.

I've still got a copy of a chart from Dr Mike Hammer, FTDNA's Chief Scientist, showing R-M269 with a big black arrow going east to west across the middle of Europe. I think the arrow started somewhere around Hungary or Romania, but I'm pretty sure it was not meant to be explicit as to the starting point, just a general direction.
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« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2012, 03:10:37 PM »

Nice to see a straight challenge from Polako. :)
So far no claims for the steppe origin seen here...

I think most people here would say that they don't know where R1b originated. That is probably a wise position. That doesn't mean that elements of R1b people did not enter Europe from the general vicinity of the Steppes though. It just means many would probably say "I don't know." I personally am not ruling out a Steppes position for some elements of R1b.

Do you have a firm position that you do know the origin of R1b and the timing of its expansions?
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« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2012, 03:36:49 PM »

Wow! I just mentioned that there was an actual chart that showed M269 as being from the Pontic Steppe. My ONLY intention was to show that the "Pontic Steppe" theory for M269 isn't just imagined.

I have no idea who made the chart. All I know is that if you go to Europedia and click on R1b, you'll find the chart.

Do I need an attorney at this point?
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