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stoneman
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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2012, 07:02:41 AM »

You can believe what you want to. How many of your descendants  will be around in a  thousand years,none?


 ?
Do you expect me to believe that one man who lived 4800 ybp is the ancestor of 300,000,000 R1b males?

That would seem to me a perfectly reasonable thing to believe.  It would require having an average of two surviving sons per generation (of 30 years) for 28 of the generations since 4800 ybp; and there have been about 160 such generations, so it's OK even if there were some famines, plagues, volcanoes, infertilities and so on.  And several other guys in Europe who were also fairly good breeders.

We are fortunate that most of the males living 4800 years ago weren't that successful.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2012, 08:57:26 AM »

In pre-history-late stone age, one thing must have been achieved, sustainable living, exemplified by small scale urban transition to rural eco-villages, seeks to create self-reliant communities based on principles of simple living, which maximize self-sufficiency particularly in food production. This appears to increase birth rate net of death rates increasing growth rates in the Isles.

Here is an interesting consideration and discussion of growth rates just for reference.

http://creation.com/where-are-all-the-people


MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2012, 03:03:28 PM »

You can believe what you want to. How many of your descendants  will be around in a  thousand years,none?

 ?
Do you expect me to believe that one man who lived 4800 ybp is the ancestor of 300,000,000 R1b males?

That would seem to me a perfectly reasonable thing to believe.  It would require having an average of two surviving sons per generation (of 30 years) for 28 of the generations since 4800 ybp; and there have been about 160 such generations, so it's OK even if there were some famines, plagues, volcanoes, infertilities and so on.  And several other guys in Europe who were also fairly good breeders.

We are fortunate that most of the males living 4800 years ago weren't that successful.

I don't think we can know the answer to your question, Stoneman. We just know that the vast, vast, vast super-majority of all paternal lineages around in ancient times have gone extinct.

I don't think that is so hard to believe. Look at breeds of animals that have gone extinct or are on the brink.

Even though paternal lineages go extinct, the general population keeps growing and someone's Y chromosome has to be passed down from the father to the sons.  Someone, albeit few, have left their Y chromosome legacy. Someone has to be "lucky" if you want to call it that.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 03:03:54 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2012, 04:00:54 PM »

I would have thought in these days of small families (and the old days with lots of kids but very high mortality) that daughtering out would be incredibily common with that alone killing off a significant chunk of male lineages in every generation.  I would expect that its against the odds for a single male line to keep going more than a handful of generations due to that effect alone.  People have trouble getting their heads around this because every male whose line that has survived to this generation is a minor miracle of improbability.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2012, 05:16:08 PM »

I have said previously that I think it is unlikely that all those currently designated P312** are likely to be part of the same  unidentified subclade. The fact that most  known at present have ancestry from Britiain is quite likely merely a reflection of the enormous bias toward the British Isles amongst those testing. My suspicion is that are several P312 subclades yet to be discovered, and they probably will have very different histories and distributions.

I gather we now have a second continental P312**, this one with ancestry from Normandy. Rather than trying to connect him to the others previously identified, I suggest we just wait until we have further data before attempting to explain it.  
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 05:18:44 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
Castlebob
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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2012, 08:43:40 AM »

Thanks, Goldenhind.
I have a slightly different approach to research in that I feel it is sensible to look at possibilities & discuss them - however unlikely! As new evidence occurs, one can then change his/her opinion accordingly. As ever, I do appreciate that we're dealing with a timescale far greater than we'd like, but at least it's something.
As you say, we may well be getting data heavily Isles based, thus skewing results. I'm sure that's  the case. If we ever get to the stage where the French, Belgians, Danes etc show as much interest as Britain, Ireland & N America do, then we may get the chance to properly evaluate the results. At present we're reduced to playing the cards we're currently dealt.
On a personal note, I can make a very strong case for having Norman roots, but also for Brythonic links. The chap you mention with potential Norman roots is therefore of great interest to me.
I think debating potential tribal origins is fine, as long as one doesn't claim 100% proof . I think  we're all wise enough to know the pitfalls, & trust none of us are too precious about our claims. I have little preference/bias regarding my own origins, simply that I'd love to know what they are some time before I pop my clogs!
Bob
PS Over the years I've also looked at Breton, Flemish, Angle, Saxon & other options. So far, Anglo-Norman & Brythonic look the most likely.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 11:59:52 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
GoldenHind
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« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2012, 09:13:26 PM »

Thanks, Goldenhind.
I have a slightly different approach to research in that I feel it is sensible to look at possibilities & discuss them - however unlikely! As new evidence occurs, one can then change his/her opinion accordingly. As ever, I do appreciate that we're dealing with a timescale far greater than we'd like, but at least it's something.
As you say, we may well be getting data heavily Isles based, thus skewing results. I'm sure that's  the case. If we ever get to the stage where the French, Belgians, Danes etc show as much interest as Britain, Ireland & N America do, then we may get the chance to properly evaluate the results. At present we're reduced to playing the cards we're currently dealt.
On a personal note, I can make a very strong case for having Norman roots, but also for Brythonic links. The chap you mention with potential Norman roots is therefore of great interest to me.
I think debating potential tribal origins is fine, as long as one doesn't claim 100% proof . I think  we're all wise enough to know the pitfalls, & trust none of us are too precious about our claims. I have little preference/bias regarding my own origins, simply that I'd love to know what they are some time before I pop my clogs!
Bob
PS Over the years I've also looked at Breton, Flemish, Angle, Saxon & other options. So far, Anglo-Norman & Brythonic look the most likely.

Firstly, let me point out that the newest P312** doesn't just have 'potential' Norman roots. He is a North American of French descent with a French surname whose ancestors came from Dieppe in Normandy. It's not like someone of British ancestry claiming distant Norman origins.

I don't really have a problem with speculation. It can be entertaining, especially in the absence of sufficient data. Nor would I be surprised if a large portion of the current P312** has Brythonic roots. But I think it's an error to assume they all share a common unknown subclade and origin. In my opinion it nearly certain that there is one or more SNPs between P312 and L238, and considering the Scandinavian distribution of L238, this hypotethical subclade is unlikely to have an origin in Britain. Of course there is no way of knowing whether any of the 17 P312** are members of this group, but I see no reason to ignore that possibilty. Testing for Z2245 and Z2247 may give us a better idea.

What I especially wanted to discourage is a repeat of the situation which developed when L21 was first discovered. The first positive results were all of British or Irish origin, and some immediately pronounced it a subclade which originated in the British Isles. When continental L21 began trickling in, some started looking for ways to explain them all in terms of migration from Britain and Ireland, and some of the explanations became very strained indeed.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 09:14:23 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
Castlebob
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« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2012, 03:22:43 AM »

Good points, Goldenhind.
I mentioned 'potential' Norman roots as the Dieppe-linked chap may have earlier unknown ancestors from anywhere in France & beyond. (I gather his Dieppe links go back to the 17th C, not the 11th C?). Also, as you know, English & Welsh soldiers were sometimes  based in northern France during Medieval times, so we can imagine some of the results!
 L21 did provoke many arguments. As you suggest, too many read the early results as being conclusive proof  of a British Isles origin. That's partly why I've only suggested that there may be a Brythonic Celt link for those we're now discussing.
Unfortunately, the problem with forums is that someone might read  my recent  posts & see me currently flagging up potential Brythonic Celt roots, but don't realise  that I've discussed other potential origins in the past. Sadly, some on these forums are desperate to  belong to a particular tribe. That doesn't apply to me. All I seek is the truth.
To anyone who is interested in the northern English & southern Scottish counties I'd suggest looking closely at Lincolnshire as a potential entry point for Normans into those counties. It's incredible how many Normans & Flemings had connections there.
Bob
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 08:45:16 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
Castlebob
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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2012, 12:32:28 AM »

I'm currently awaiting Z2245 & Z2247 results, and am hoping others who are
R-P312** do the same - particularly the Dieppe-linked testee.
I've spent most of my life assuming my family were of Norman stock, but in recent years have tried to make a case for other roots. However, a recent breakthrough via 12th & 13th C records has reinforced the Norman theory.
It'll be interesting to see what Z2245 & Z2247 reveal.
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2012, 06:14:54 PM »

I'm currently awaiting Z2245 & Z2247 results, and am hoping others who are
R-P312** do the same - particularly the Dieppe-linked testee.
I've spent most of my life assuming my family were of Norman stock, but in recent years have tried to make a case for other roots. However, a recent breakthrough via 12th & 13th C records has reinforced the Norman theory.
It'll be interesting to see what Z2245 & Z2247 reveal.
Bob
Unfortunately there are only two orders at the moment for Z2245 and Z2247 by P312** individuals. Another is planning on ordering them next month, and as he is reasonably close to the L238 STR signature, I think he is the most likely to get a positive result. If anyone gets a positive result on either SNP, I think more orders will follow. If both are negative for both SNPs, it's not likely to encourage much interest, as that won't give us any better idea about the position of these new SNPs.
BTW, the vast majority of P312* (U152-, L21-) haven't tested for either DF27 or DF19. At the urging of the P312 project administrator, a number of them are now ordering DF27, and will follow with DF19 if they get negative results. Some of them will be negative for both, so the number of P312** could grow substantially in the next few months.
In any case, any hypothetical SNP between P312 and L238 could be very old, and unlikely to be Norman specific. I'm not even sure it will have the same close association with Scandinavia that L238 has. I do think it might very well be predominantly northern European. 
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Castlebob
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2012, 05:53:57 AM »

Thanks for the update, Goldenhind.
I appreciate the difficulties that the timescales involded produce, but there's always a chance that Z2245 & Z2247 might at least divide this group.
Bob
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 05:54:55 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
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slimered
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« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2013, 04:07:41 PM »

I am Edmund Fimbres living in California.  I have traced the family name to Juan de Fimbres a Flemish silk merchant living in Bilbao (Basque Country) Spain in 1650. Given that many from Flanders emigrated to Britain at about the same time, I did a name search of British sources and found that there were Fimbres living in Britain in the 18th, 19th and early 20th century. Most Fimbres today are in Northern Mexico and the southwest US but many claim a Basque heritage.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 04:09:22 PM by slimered » Logged

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Castlebob
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« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2013, 01:05:06 PM »

That's interesting news. My interest is predominantly the Scottish Border counties, & I have found many Flemish links in the region. In the 12th C,  Roxburgh exported wool to Flanders. The Flemings were pivotal in that trade.

Flemings & Normans were encouraged to settle in Scotland by several Scottish kings.
 There were also numerous Flemish mercenaries allied to King William the Lion of Scotland  who invaded England  in  1173.

Many Flemings headed into Cumbria & Scotland following expulsion from England. Others joined David of Huntingdon when he headed north to claim the Scottish crown. The de Ghent/de Gant family were with David & adopted the Lindsay surname when surnames became required.  The family were often Lord Chamberlains of Scotland. There is strong evidence to suggest that Robert de Brus was from Flanders, prior to the Cotentin in Normandy. His family in Yorkshire carried the rampant lion popular in Flanders.

Many of the castles of Scotland were built by Flemings, supposedly. I believe far more clans in Scotland have Flemish blood than is commonly believed. Unfortunately Victorian researchers labelled them as Norman!

Cheers,

Bob
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 01:08:48 PM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
GoldenHind
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« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2013, 09:43:29 PM »


FTDNA has just released the results of 25 tests for DF27 by people who were formerly P312* (ie U152- L21-). There is a special offer by the P312 project at the moment for members who are P312* for a complimentary DF19 test for those who test DF27-.  All but two of the 25 were DF27+.
One of the two DF27-, with ancestry to northern Germany in the 13th century, is now pending the test for DF19.
The other had already tested DF19, so now joins the ranks of those who are P312**. He is a Russian with ancestry in Russia back to the 15th century.
Perhaps he is a descendant of a Welsh crusader who took a wrong turn at Constantinople?
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OConnor
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« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2013, 09:55:04 AM »

if there is P312* in Scandinavia, could he possibly be a remnant of the Vikings in Russia?

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac14
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 10:11:00 AM by OConnor » Logged

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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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SEJJ
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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2013, 01:43:12 PM »

if there is P312* in Scandinavia, could he possibly be a remnant of the Vikings in Russia?

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac14


Hmm.

Surely a fairly big chunk of R1b in Scandinavia should be P312? Like Denmark for instance, 45% R1b, about 20% R1b-U106, maybe U152, L21 combined is another 1-5% - That's like 20% unaccounted for, except by P312?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2013, 08:09:11 PM »

There is P312* (XU152,L21) in Scandinavia, though the data from the Old Norway Project suggests it is strongest in Norway, then Sweden and less common in Denmark. Viking settlers in Russia came primarily from Sweden.

However we have no idea how it is broken down beyond that. Certainly some of it is 238, but some portion is likely to be DF27. How much if any is what is currently classified as P312** is unknown.
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samIsaack
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« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2013, 07:27:54 AM »

They have already confirmed that some of the R1b in these regions is DF27, more specifically SRY2627. There was also around the same ammount of unconfirmed P312 left over after taking SRY2627 into account. I'm sure a portion of that left-over chunk contains L165 as well.

Sweden seemed to have the highest numbers for these DF27 people. Next I believe was Norway and lastly Denmark.
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chris1
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« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2013, 07:49:09 AM »

Anyone know how far away we are from seeing accurate DF27 percentages for the whole of Europe?
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Webb
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« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2013, 10:30:00 AM »

Anyone know how far away we are from seeing accurate DF27 percentages for the whole of Europe?

Way, way, way far away.  Ftdna hasn't even added it to their tree yet as well as the north/south cluster or DF19.  It is odd how many people joined the P312 group and have not tested for anything since.  Even with the group offering to pay for the DF19 test if your DF27 test comes back negative.  Not many people biting.  You would think by now ftdna would update their tree, particularly since they offer these tests under the advanced option. 
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William B. Webb
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slimered
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« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2013, 03:26:39 AM »

My 67 marker is -2 from the other "Fimbres" tested P312** so I'm assuming I'm P312 also. I'm doing the Geno 2.0 now to confirm. From my research so far I have determined that the Fimbres name which no longer exists in Europe comes down from a Flemish {'Flemenco") silk merchant, Juan de Fimbres, in Bilboa (Basque country) Spain circa 1650.  The first Fimbres' in Mexico considered their heritage Basque. They settled in Sonora Mexico, Arizona and Calfornia.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 04:21:43 PM by slimered » Logged

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Castlebob
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« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2013, 04:37:55 AM »

That's interesting, Slimered. I have found a number of  R-P312** testees who may have Flemish links, including myself.  One of the R-P312** testees had an ancestor in Hatfield, Yorkshire in the 1600s. I have traced a family who lived in Cumbria, who might well be linked to my ancestors, who were in  Reedness, near Hull, Yorkshire. Reedness to Hatfield is a little over 10 miles.
I'm not claiming that the Hatfield testee  & my family are linked closely in genealogical terms, but I do believe we may well both have origins in Flanders. Flemings dominated the Holderness area close to where Reedness is located. I have also spent hundreds of hours researching Medieval docs & found Flemings in abundance in places that interest me.
Another R-P312** testee has the surname Jenkins. Initially, that appeared to indicate Brythonic Celt to me, yet I found that the 'kin' ending was introduced to Wales by Flemings. I think most of the Jenkins' folk will be of Celtic stock. I think their name was initially 'Siencyn' and that their 'cyn' ending got dropped in preference for the 'kin' version. ('Friskin the Fleming' appears in many Scottish records - a fine example of the use of the 'kin'  ending. Erskine is another example). Another testee had links to Nottinghamshire. The lace industry in that county had Flemish connections.
Finally, my surname also appeared in Berwick, which exported wool to Bruges, plus they were also Merchant Staplers of my name further south in the Notts & Lincs area. The wool trade was dominated by Flemings in Medieval times..
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 08:31:26 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2013, 02:01:47 PM »

My 67 marker is -2 from the other "Fimbres" tested P312** so I'm assuming I'm P312 also. I'm doing the Geno 2.0 now to confirm. From my research so far I have determined that the Fimbres name which no longer exists in Europe comes down from a Flemmish {'Flemenco") silk merchant, Juan de Fimbres, in Bilboa (Basque country) Spain circa 1650.  The first Fimbres' in Mexico considered their heritage Basque. They settled in Sonora Mexico, Arizona and Calfornia.

I'm afraid that Geno 2.0 is unlikely to be of any assistance. There are other P312** individuals who have ordered it, and their results didn't show anything below P310 (P312 for some reason isn't included in the SNPs tested by Geno 2). You could get lucky, but I suggest you sit tight for a while. There are other developments in progress which should identify some further SNPs below P312 within a month or two.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 02:02:11 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2013, 03:47:32 PM »

That's interesting, Slimered. I have found a number of  R-P312** testees who may have Flemish links, including myself.  One of the R-P312** testees had an ancestor in Hatfield, Yorkshire in the 1600s. I have traced a family who lived in Cumbria, who might well be linked to my ancestors, who were in  Reedness, near Hull, Yorkshire. Reedness to Hatfield is a little over 10 miles.
I'm not claiming that the Hatfield testee  & my family are linked closely in genealogical terms, but I do believe we may well both have origins in Flanders. Flemings dominated the Holderness area close to where Reedness is located. I have also spent hundreds of hours researching Medieval docs & found Flemings in abundance in places that interest me.
Another R-P312** testee has the surname Jenkins. Initially, that appeared to indicate Brythonic Celt to me, yet I found that the 'kin' ending was introduced to Wales by Flemings. I think most of the Jenkins' folk will be of Celtic stock. I think their name was initially 'Siencyn' and that their 'cyn' ending got dropped in preference for the 'kin' version. ('Friskin the Fleming' appears in many Scottish records - a fine example of the use of the 'kin'  ending. Erskine is another example). Another testee had links to Nottinghamshire. The lace industry in that county had Flemish connections.
Finally, my surname also appeared in Berwick, which exported wool to Bruges, plus they were also Merchant Staplers of my name further south in the Notts & Lincs area. The wool trade was dominated by Flemings in Medieval times..
Cheers,
Bob

I have been looking at those currently on the P312** list (now at 35), and by comparing off modals (a la Nordtvedt) and GDs within the group, have found what I believe to be at least two likely clusters.

The ones you mention from Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire rather surprisingly have their closest match not with any of the other British, but rather with the one from Russia. The three share a number of comparatively scare off modals. This one is still a little fuzzy around the edges, and I am unsure how many of the others might fall into it as well. However I am quite confident about those three.

Jenkins however is part of a different and very distinct cluster with a number of other Welsh surnames, as well as some from England. I have found nine different off modals commonly occuring in this group, but common to all of them is a very distinctive DYS392=14.

I have reported more completely on this on another forum, and unfortunately I am pressed for time at the moment and cannot go into it any further at this point. There certainly may be some P312** with a connection with Flanders, but I am quite certain it doesn't extend to the entire group.
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« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2013, 04:12:12 PM »

That's interesting, Slimered. I have found a number of  R-P312** testees who may have Flemish links, including myself.  One of the R-P312** testees had an ancestor in Hatfield, Yorkshire in the 1600s. I have traced a family who lived in Cumbria, who might well be linked to my ancestors, who were in  Reedness, near Hull, Yorkshire. Reedness to Hatfield is a little over 10 miles.
I'm not claiming that the Hatfield testee  & my family are linked closely in genealogical terms, but I do believe we may well both have origins in Flanders. Flemings dominated the Holderness area close to where Reedness is located. I have also spent hundreds of hours researching Medieval docs & found Flemings in abundance in places that interest me.
Another R-P312** testee has the surname Jenkins. Initially, that appeared to indicate Brythonic Celt to me, yet I found that the 'kin' ending was introduced to Wales by Flemings. I think most of the Jenkins' folk will be of Celtic stock. I think their name was initially 'Siencyn' and that their 'cyn' ending got dropped in preference for the 'kin' version. ('Friskin the Fleming' appears in many Scottish records - a fine example of the use of the 'kin'  ending. Erskine is another example). Another testee had links to Nottinghamshire. The lace industry in that county had Flemish connections.
Finally, my surname also appeared in Berwick, which exported wool to Bruges, plus they were also Merchant Staplers of my name further south in the Notts & Lincs area. The wool trade was dominated by Flemings in Medieval times..
Cheers,
Bob

I have been looking at those currently on the P312** list (now at 35), and by comparing off modals (a la Nordtvedt) and GDs within the group, have found what I believe to be at least two likely clusters.

The ones you mention from Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire rather surprisingly have their closest match not with any of the other British, but rather with the one from Russia. The three share a number of comparatively scare off modals. This one is still a little fuzzy around the edges, and I am unsure how many of the others might fall into it as well. However I am quite confident about those three.

Jenkins however is part of a different and very distinct cluster with a number of other Welsh surnames, as well as some from England. I have found nine different off modals commonly occuring in this group, but common to all of them is a very distinctive DYS392=14.

I have reported more completely on this on another forum, and unfortunately I am pressed for time at the moment and cannot go into it any further at this point. There certainly may be some P312** with a connection with Flanders, but I am quite certain it doesn't extend to the entire group.

I just posted about something similiar in another thread.  My 37 marker step 1 through 3 all have the last name wilder and I match the step 1's and 2's at 67 markers as well.  However my 37 marker step 4's all have the surname Vanderhoof.  Since I do not match this group at 67, I sort of ignored them, until one of them tested positive for Z220.  They are Dutch.  According to FTDNA's tip sheet the probability of a common ancestor is at 28 generations with above 95% certainty.  So the two lines split around 1300 or so.  That could change with further testing.  It could be an isolated migration.  However around 1300 king Edward granted a large group of Flemish weavers land in England, settling some in Wales, some in Bristol, and some in Manchester.  Also william the conqueror's son was half Flemish and there was a large component of Flemish who came with him to England.  If Z220 is common as Far East as Denmark then it is quite possible that it was/is common all along the Atlantic and North Sea coast as well as various othe P312 groups.
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William B. Webb
P312>DF27>Z220
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