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Author Topic: The L23 Split - L51 & Z2105  (Read 2056 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2012, 09:53:18 PM »

It is such a shame about Dna-Forums. The discussions there were so free-wheeling and exciting. All the R's (R1b, R1a, R2 etc) were thrown in together so you would get great perspectives from 'outside the box'.
T101, welcome to the World Familes R1b and Subclades forum. We got a lot more (at dna-forums) than just free wheeling. You get additional trollers and dual identity folks hopping in to stir up the foreign haplogroups (to the trollers) and then complain that certain thread about particular haplogroup only focused on that haplogroup. You'd also get some of the less popular haplogroup folks deserting to elsewhere because the were crowded out by, for example, L21 folks.   You (we) even had over there top L21 gurus leaving over there long before the dna-forums crash. They were coming here.

This forum is much, much better to the credit of Richard S and also to Terry because he steps in as needed to keep us focused on the argument rather than on each other.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 10:04:37 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
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« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2012, 07:25:05 AM »

. . .

 And how (I think it was Stevo who started that 'idea' that R1b carried indo-european languages into Europe from the East. Ohhh... the flame wars began! Haha... fun times!


. . .


Yeah, that was me. I was "Stevo" (and still am over at FTDNA's forum). I actually first broached that idea on FTDNA's forum, as I recall. I got it from looking at the distribution of R1 and noticing that it matched that of the early IE languages better then either R1a or R1b by itself did. I still think that is pretty obviously true.

The problem has always been twofold: R1b men who love the old "we are the original white guys" idea (i.e., the old R1b=West-Euro-Cro-Magnons-in-the-Franco-Cantabrian-Ice-Age-Refuge notion), and R1a guys who want to keep the original Indo-Europeans all to themselves.

At this point I am so burned out on PIE bovine excrement that I don't care anymore. My current theory is that PIEs rode unicorns and carried leprechauns on their shoulders as mushroom spotters. I think they belonged to y haplogroup O and altered the language of Europe via Chinese restaurant and laundry franchise operations. If you wanted to know what the fortune in your cookie said, you had to switch languages - a powerful incentive.

 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 07:28:30 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2012, 07:34:20 AM »

Seconded. I came here for rms2.

Wow! That was nice. Surprising, but nice.

Thanks!

Thanks to you, too, Jdean, for your ditto, to Mike, and to Terry Barton for his very nice compliments.

This is a really good forum.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 07:38:33 AM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2012, 12:21:06 PM »

. . .

 And how (I think it was Stevo who started that 'idea' that R1b carried indo-european languages into Europe from the East. Ohhh... the flame wars began! Haha... fun times!


. . .


At this point I am so burned out on PIE bovine excrement that I don't care anymore. My current theory is that PIEs rode unicorns and carried leprechauns on their shoulders as mushroom spotters. I think they belonged to y haplogroup O and altered the language of Europe via Chinese restaurant and laundry franchise operations. If you wanted to know what the fortune in your cookie said, you had to switch languages - a powerful incentive.

 

My Korean father-in-law salutes you!
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



T101
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« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2012, 06:39:06 PM »


Yeah, that was me. I was "Stevo" (and still am over at FTDNA's forum). I actually first broached that idea on FTDNA's forum, as I recall. I got it from looking at the distribution of R1 and noticing that it matched that of the early IE languages better then either R1a or R1b by itself did. I still think that is pretty obviously true.

The problem has always been twofold: R1b men who love the old "we are the original white guys" idea (i.e., the old R1b=West-Euro-Cro-Magnons-in-the-Franco-Cantabrian-Ice-Age-Refuge notion), and R1a guys who want to keep the original Indo-Europeans all to themselves.

Hats off to you!! It is truly an honor. What you did way back then in 2007? 6? was so brilliant and gutsy. People at the time were just so incensced with rage and incredulous. You stuck your neck out for a common-sense position that at the time was deemed utterly ridiculous and nonsense by the so-called experts. You helped blow up that whole paradigm of Nat Geo maps, 6 and 12 maker haplotypes, and that Oppenheimer and Skyes H is for Helena silliness.

I fortunately missed out on most of that vitriol because at the time I was still trying to figure out how FTDNA had me (as an R1a) related to people from Iceland to India and everwhere inbetween! And how wonderful it was that my maternal H ancestors were doing cave paintings in Southern France and Spain (since of course they lived there since the 'dawn of time' or 'exodus out of Africa'... lol!)

How far we've come thanks to great minds like yours!

At this point I am so burned out on PIE bovine excrement that I don't care anymore. My current theory is that PIEs rode unicorns and carried leprechauns on their shoulders as mushroom spotters. I think they belonged to y haplogroup O and altered the language of Europe via Chinese restaurant and laundry franchise operations. If you wanted to know what the fortune in your cookie said, you had to switch languages - a powerful incentive.

Ohhh... say it isn't so. On one hand I can understand after six years or longer of this to be burned out... but there are so many great battles still left to be fought!

Today we have the PIE out of Anatolia versus out of the Steppe. Most everyone dismisses the Anatolian theory as 'malarky' and foolishness. Yet there is Dienekes staunchly and admirably defending it. I tend to fall on the steppe side where the evidence seems to be currently... (Maykop, to Kemi Oba, to the Stelae people, Yamnaya, and the Bell Beakers,) but I am always given to pause and remind myself of your great example of 'bucking the tide' and 'sticking to your guns' even when all the available evidence at the time seems to suggest no other option.

Cheers
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princenuadha
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« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2012, 07:46:06 PM »

Quote from: rms2
My current theory is that PIEs rode unicorns and carried leprechauns on their shoulders as mushroom spotters.

Excuse me, but there were no leprechauns in my Atlantian homeland.

Quote from: rms2
I actually firstbroachedthatideaon FTDNA's forum, as I recall. I got it from looking at the distribution of R1 and noticing that it matched that of the early IE languages better then either R1a or R1b by itself did.

That's really cool! I love turning theories on their side, and wow, you sure did that. Don't let the current events take away that joy : )

Though, I'm still pretty glad I came to these DNA sites when I did, because most of what we knew five years ago was absolute garbage... Lots of continuity arguments.

"Yet there is Dienekes staunchly and admirably defending it."

Any time he runs a test having to do with West Asian or IE, I can only imagine him sitting in front of the computer cherrypicking anything he can get his hands on.

Searching for treasure is fine; saying that a turd is actually a chunk of gold is not so fine.



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acekon
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« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2012, 01:23:25 AM »

Some more results from Z2105*Atlantis, LOL.

Cheers!


Eurogenes Jtest14, compared to Dodecad K-12,MDLP K-12 MDLP 22 World,top 5 in each, test mix mode 2 populations,and 23andme top 5[1gp-5cM]

23&me-top 5 [1gp_5cM]
1]Germany 0.8%-3.1%
2]Russia 0.7%–2.7%
3]Poland 0.6%–3.5%
4]United Kingdom 0.4%-1.3%
5]Sweden 0.3%–1.3%

Jtest14
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1] 92.7% PL + 7.3% ES @ 1.47
2] 96% PL + 4% Sardinian @ 1.49
3] 92.6% PL + 7.4% PT @ 1.54
4] 92.5% PL + 7.5% North Italian @ 1.54
5] 94.4% PL + 5.6% French Basque @ 1.6

Dodecad K-12
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1] 52.8%Mixed_Germanic(Dodecad)+ 47.2%Russian_(Behar)1.37
2] 67.3%German(Dodecad)+ 32.7% Russian_B (Behar) @ 1.49
3] 65.7%German(Dodecad)+ 34.3%Russian (Dodecad)@ 1.74
4] 53.4%Mixed_Slav(Dodecad)+6.6%M­ixed_Germanic(Dodecad) @ 1.74
5]57.2%Ukranian(Yunusbayev)+42­.8%CEU30(1000Genome)@1.91

MDLP K=12
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1] 82.2% SLK (Slovak) + 17.8% LTH (Lithuanian) @ 3.8
2] 79.4% SLK (Slovak) + 20.6% BLR (Belarusian) @ 4.02
3] 70.1% SLK (Slovak) + 29.9% EUKR (East-Ukrainian)@ 4.11
4] 72.2% SLK (Slovak) + 27.8% POL (Polish) @ 4.22
5] 76.5% SLK (Slovak) + 23.5% SRUS (South-Russian) @ 4.45

MDLP World-22
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1] 96.2% Polish_V(derived)+ 3.8% Abhkasian(derived)@ 2.17
2] 96.3% Polish_V(derived)+3.7%Georgian­_Imereti(derived) @ 2.19
3] 96.1% Polish_V (derived) + 3.9% Georgian_Laz (derived) @ 2.24
4] 55.2% North-East-European (ancestral) + 44.8% Kosovar (derived) @ 2.25
5] 95.2% Polish_V (derived) + 4.8% Adygei (derived) @ 2.25

23andme Ashkenazi and Colonial checked 1gp_5cM 0.0%-0.4%
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 01:25:53 AM by acekon » Logged

YDNA: R-Z2105* Śląsk-Polska
MtDNA: U5b2a2*Königsberg-Ostpreussen
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2012, 07:21:40 AM »

Quote from: rms2
My current theory is that PIEs rode unicorns and carried leprechauns on their shoulders as mushroom spotters.

Excuse me, but there were no leprechauns in my Atlantian homeland.

Quote from: rms2
I actually firstbroachedthatideaon FTDNA's forum, as I recall. I got it from looking at the distribution of R1 and noticing that it matched that of the early IE languages better then either R1a or R1b by itself did.

That's really cool! I love turning theories on their side, and wow, you sure did that. Don't let the current events take away that joy : )

Though, I'm still pretty glad I came to these DNA sites when I did, because most of what we knew five years ago was absolute garbage... Lots of continuity arguments.

"Yet there is Dienekes staunchly and admirably defending it."

Any time he runs a test having to do with West Asian or IE, I can only imagine him sitting in front of the computer cherrypicking anything he can get his hands on.

Searching for treasure is fine; saying that a turd is actually a chunk of gold is not so fine.





People say you cant polish a turd but I think with a potters kiln and glaze it might be possible :0)
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2012, 07:25:32 AM »

Yep I agree Rich does a great job and makes the site what it is.  I particularly enjoyed the days of chasing newly-found L21 on the continent.   
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rms2
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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2012, 08:43:42 PM »

Yep I agree Rich does a great job and makes the site what it is.  I particularly enjoyed the days of chasing newly-found L21 on the continent.   

I did too! It was great when we were getting all those positive hits in France. Very exciting.

What still baffles me is the early signs from Germany that made it look like L21 would be big there, at least in the Rhineland. Then Myres and Busby came out and killed that notion. France held up well, though.
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Jarman
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« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2012, 12:58:14 AM »

New Results:

Robinson/Robbins sample 37486 is now Z2105+

Previously tested L584-

FWIW:  Dys461=11,  DYS425=null,  YCAII=18-23

Now where in Scotland did their ancestor live and how did he get there?


« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 12:53:38 PM by Jarman » Logged
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