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stoneman
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« on: October 10, 2012, 03:51:14 AM »

Irish newspaper which mentions DNA testing now going on to uncover links to the Vikings. Interestingly, it also contains this mention of the Normans: "'Irish surnames have very clear ethnic diversity, whether they are Norse, Norman, English or Irish. We hope to see if the Vikings who settled in Ireland are directly from Norway or if they came via England or Normandy,' she [Dr Catherine Swift, of Mary Immaculate College] added."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 51168.html
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Castlebob
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 04:17:00 AM »

That's interesting, Stoneman. Ironically, I was channel-hopping a few days ago  & happened upon a repeat Robert Bartlett's 'The Normans' on the 'Yesterday' Channel. He was explaining how the Scottish invited some Normans into their realm, resulting in their being left alone. He mentioned the more aggressive stance taken by the Normans in Wales & ireland.
Bob
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Heber
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« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 07:42:06 AM »

Here is the announcement from the Leicester University site.

http://www.leicestersurnamesproject.org.uk/

And here is a description of the Galway project.

Among the surnames eligible for the test are Broderick, Browne, Burke, Carr, Casey, Clancy, Collins, Donnellan, Lally, Lee, Moran, Morris, Murray, Naughton,, O’Flaherty, Regan, Tighe, Tully and Walsh.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/28124-viking-legacy-galway-be-studied
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 08:28:44 AM »

According to one of the Historians working on the project who I have corresponded with they are testing 17 STR's and 19 SNP's. Which is fairly standard for an academic project, still hopefully it raises awareness further here in Ireland.

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OConnor
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 09:54:57 AM »

is this a hunt for R1a haplo types?
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inver2b1
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 10:18:07 AM »

As Dubhthach said hopefully it increases awareness of DNA testing in Ireland.
Regarding the surnames I thought O'Flaherty was an UiFiach name.
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Heber
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2012, 10:25:04 AM »

As Dubhthach said hopefully it increases awareness of DNA testing in Ireland.
Regarding the surnames I thought O'Flaherty was an UiFiach name.

I understand they will also test Gaelic names as a control.
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Heber


 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2012, 12:43:28 PM »

I have always been convinced that the Vikings were absorbed into the urban Medieval populations of Dublin, Waterford, Wexford, Cork and Limerick, probably adopting Norman trade type surnames etc.  The Viking and Norman type urban lifestyles were really very similar, both sharply contrasting with the norm in the sticks.  You can get a wonderful impression of the 'other Ireland' (which tends to be overlooked) of the urban world of merchants, craftsmen, traders etc in the Dublinia museum on Dublin. 

I have often felt that later 19th/early20th century approach to Irish history has alientated people from this urban history somewhat even when it is partly their own ancestors story.  The practice of calling anyone who settled Ireland in pre-Viking times as 'the Irish' and anyone who settled after 800AD as non-Irish has not helped and IMO this practice needs to be discontinued.  It doesnt make sense as its purely arbitory to have a cut off point for nativeness based on which side of 800AD or perhaps 500AD the settlers arrived and this is not practiced in most other countries. 
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Castlebob
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2012, 02:29:37 PM »

I have always been convinced that the Vikings were absorbed into the urban Medieval populations of Dublin, Waterford, Wexford, Cork and Limerick, probably adopting Norman trade type surnames etc.  The Viking and Norman type urban lifestyles were really very similar, both sharply contrasting with the norm in the sticks.  You can get a wonderful impression of the 'other Ireland' (which tends to be overlooked) of the urban world of merchants, craftsmen, traders etc in the Dublinia museum on Dublin.  

I have often felt that later 19th/early20th century approach to Irish history has alientated people from this urban history somewhat even when it is partly their own ancestors story.  The practice of calling anyone who settled Ireland in pre-Viking times as 'the Irish' and anyone who settled after 800AD as non-Irish has not helped and IMO this practice needs to be discontinued.  It doesnt make sense as its purely arbitory to have a cut off point for nativeness based on which side of 800AD or perhaps 500AD the settlers arrived and this is not practiced in most other countries.  
I whole-heartedly agree, Alan. At some stage, historians have made judgements to suit their own attitudes, & millions have followed their lead. There are surely far more Celts of English & southern Scottish stock who have been completely overlooked in favour of comparative newcomers to these isles, such as Normans, who went from England & Wales into Ireland, & are considered dyed in the wool Celts!!!
I wish we would all attempt to find out what our tribal origins actually were, rather than settling for being bracketed into groups by potentially  ill-informed historians.
Bob
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 02:37:48 PM by Castlebob » Logged

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A.D.
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2012, 01:03:38 PM »

I think Julian Richards tested for 'Viking Y-DNA' around Munster/Connaught and found none. Brian Boru is supposed to have killed every male Viking man and child and sold the females as slaves. That's probably an exageration but people who start on that road do give it their best. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2012, 02:00:41 PM »

I think Julian Richards tested for 'Viking Y-DNA' around Munster/Connaught and found none. Brian Boru is supposed to have killed every male Viking man and child and sold the females as slaves. That's probably an exageration but people who start on that road do give it their best. 

Be careful though to not take the saga of the the war of the Gaels vs the Gall as a historical source.  Irish historians consider it a very untrustworthy historical source which turns it into an Irish v Vikings instead of the reality that it was a Munster v Leinster conflict with Vikings on both sides.  Its far better to just use the Irish annals.  As far as I recall, the Vikings still populated the towns when the Normans arrived.  I suspect the attempt to find Vikings didnt go much further than an R1a and U106 headcount. 
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2012, 02:13:58 PM »

"Cogad Gáedel re Gallaib" is infamous as a piece of Dál gCáis propaganda. The prime example of reality trumping "romantic nationalism" is the Battle of Cluain Tarbh (Clontarf) itself.

You had "Irish" and "Viking" on both sides. After all it was the forces of Munster (with "Viking" subjects from Cork, Limerick, Waterford) and Connacht verus those of Leinster and the Vikings of Dublin -- with large Viking contigents from the Western Isles/Man.

Of course the army of Meath stayed out of the battle due to disagreement between Murchad mac Briain (Briain's oldest son) and Máel Sechnaill (former High King -- King of Meath) the night before the battle.

The concept that it and everything else over the previous 100-150 years was a binary conflict if false. Irish and Viking intermarried, formed dynastical alliances etc. The prime example fo couse is that Sihtric Silkenbeard king of Dublin was the nephew of Máel Mórda King of Leinster, and the son-in-law of Briain Bóroimhe. Let alone the fact that Sihtric mother was the former wife of Briain.

-Paul
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Heber
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2012, 02:19:02 PM »

"Cogad Gáedel re Gallaib" is infamous as a piece of Dál gCáis propaganda. The prime example of reality trumping "romantic nationalism" is the Battle of Cluain Tarbh (Clontarf) itself.

You had "Irish" and "Viking" on both sides. After all it was the forces of Munster (with "Viking" subjects from Cork, Limerick, Waterford) and Connacht verus those of Leinster and the Vikings of Dublin -- with large Viking contigents from the Western Isles/Man.

Of course the army of Meath stayed out of the battle due to disagreement between Murchad mac Briain (Briain's oldest son) and Máel Sechnaill (former High King -- King of Meath) the night before the battle.

The concept that it and everything else over the previous 100-150 years was a binary conflict if false. Irish and Viking intermarried, formed dynastical alliances etc. The prime example fo couse is that Sihtric Silkenbeard king of Dublin was the nephew of Máel Mórda King of Leinster, and the son-in-law of Briain Bóroimhe. Let alone the fact that Sihtric mother was the former wife of Briain.

-Paul
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The Millinium anniversary of the Battle of Clontarf, will be in Easter, 2014. It would be great to invite as many Viking descendants as possible to commentate the event.
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Heber


 
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2012, 09:43:41 PM »

... As far as I recall, the Vikings still populated the towns when the Normans arrived....

Yes, I've read as much I could that Gerald Cambrensis (Gerald of Wales) wrote, who is supposed to be related to my clan progenitor.

His writings of the Cambro-Norman Invasion referred to battles with Ostmen on several occasions. The Ostmen were men from the "east" or Scandinavians.
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Dubhthach
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2012, 04:10:58 AM »

... As far as I recall, the Vikings still populated the towns when the Normans arrived....

Yes, I've read as much I could that Gerald Cambrensis (Gerald of Wales) wrote, who is supposed to be related to my clan progenitor.

His writings of the Cambro-Norman Invasion referred to battles with Ostmen on several occasions. The Ostmen were men from the "east" or Scandinavians.

Part of Northwest inner city Dublin is known by older name of "Oxmantown" this reflects fact that the Norse-Gael inhabitants of the city were expelled from within the walls after the conquest, they thus moved across the river. In Irish the name is rendered as "Baile Lochlannach" (Viking town/homestead)

Likewise on the extreme-east of the city (beside the sea) you find Irishtown. This was were any Irish inhabitants were expelled to, so as to keep them outside the walls.

This pattern is repeated in several places around Ireland where you get seperate "Irish towns" for example in Kilkenny, Dundalk and Athlone.

-Paul
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chris1
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2012, 09:42:01 AM »

... As far as I recall, the Vikings still populated the towns when the Normans arrived....

Yes, I've read as much I could that Gerald Cambrensis (Gerald of Wales) wrote, who is supposed to be related to my clan progenitor.

His writings of the Cambro-Norman Invasion referred to battles with Ostmen on several occasions. The Ostmen were men from the "east" or Scandinavians.

Part of Northwest inner city Dublin is known by older name of "Oxmantown" this reflects fact that the Norse-Gael inhabitants of the city were expelled from within the walls after the conquest, they thus moved across the river. In Irish the name is rendered as "Baile Lochlannach" (Viking town/homestead)

Likewise on the extreme-east of the city (beside the sea) you find Irishtown. This was were any Irish inhabitants were expelled to, so as to keep them outside the walls.

This pattern is repeated in several places around Ireland where you get seperate "Irish towns" for example in Kilkenny, Dundalk and Athlone.

-Paul
(DF41+)

That's interesting, at Anglo-Scandinavian York/Jorvik there was a separate area just outside the fort walls called Bretgate, or street of the Britons. The suffix Gate/Gata is Norse, meaning street or way and is present in many Yorkshire street names.
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Bren123
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2012, 12:22:51 PM »

I have always been convinced that the Vikings were absorbed into the urban Medieval populations of Dublin, Waterford, Wexford, Cork and Limerick, probably adopting Norman trade type surnames etc.  The Viking and Norman type urban lifestyles were really very similar, both sharply contrasting with the norm in the sticks.  You can get a wonderful impression of the 'other Ireland' (which tends to be overlooked) of the urban world of merchants, craftsmen, traders etc in the Dublinia museum on Dublin.  

I have often felt that later 19th/early20th century approach to Irish history has alientated people from this urban history somewhat even when it is partly their own ancestors story.  The practice of calling anyone who settled Ireland in pre-Viking times as 'the Irish' and anyone who settled after 800AD as non-Irish has not helped and IMO this practice needs to be discontinued.  It doesnt make sense as its purely arbitory to have a cut off point for nativeness based on which side of 800AD or perhaps 500AD the settlers arrived and this is not practiced in most other countries.  
I whole-heartedly agree, Alan. At some stage, historians have made judgements to suit their own attitudes, & millions have followed their lead. There are surely far more Celts of English & southern Scottish stock who have been completely overlooked in favour of comparative newcomers to these isles, such as Normans, who went from England & Wales into Ireland, & are considered dyed in the wool Celts!!!
I wish we would all attempt to find out what our tribal origins actually were, rather than settling for being bracketed into groups by potentially  ill-informed historians.
Bob

The Celts have nothing to do with genetics and to be fair to historians they identify Celts as a linguistic/cultural phenomenon!
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« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2012, 04:26:31 PM »

Agreed Bren,
My point was that some Irish families who are obviously from Viking/Germanic backgrounds are viewed by many today as being of pure Irish/Celtic stock, whereas there are many in England who are far more Celt in their tribal origins, yet are thought of as Anglo-Saxon!
Bob
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rms2
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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2012, 04:46:05 PM »

The Celts have nothing to do with genetics and to be fair to historians they identify Celts as a linguistic/cultural phenomenon!

I wouldn't go as far as to say that. Yes, Celtic is primarily a linguistic designation, but actual people spoke Celtic languages. They lived in a definite part of the world, left some of their remains behind and, presumably, some descendants, too. Greeks and Romans wrote about and described them, and some of the Celts' own traditions have come down to us in old Irish and Welsh literature.

So, while the Celts may not have been an absolute genetic monolith (what people is?), I think it is possible to say some things about them genetically that are likely to be true.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 04:46:35 PM by rms2 » Logged

Castlebob
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2012, 03:26:14 AM »

I think both Rich & Bren have a point re the Celts, but I'm merely judging what the the views of many Victorian historians were on the subject. Their views have seeped into general acceptance today. I know that the layman in Britain generally sees England as Anglo-Saxon, & Wales, Scotland & Ieland as Celtic.
I even find that people on various DNA forums tend to ignore/disregard the idea that there are (surely?) millions more English of Celt stock than found in the other countries.
The latest P312** group now stands at 13. Some of the names in this group may well have Brythonic Celt roots:
Armstrong, McFarlane, Williams & Jenkins are four of interest. The first two may be of Kingdom of Strathclyde stock; the latter two Welsh. Several of the other surnames I haven't listed have high frequencies  of their surname found in Lancashire & Cheshire. Also, a couple of the others in the list have last known ancestors in places in the west of England, such as Bristol.
I appreciate that the current P312** group above may well disintegrate with further testing, but I think it is interesting to  see what common denominator these people have at this stage  - a potential west of the Pennines Brythonic Celt ancestry.
Cheers,
Bob
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 01:02:29 AM by Castlebob » Logged

Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2012, 09:13:12 AM »


The latest P312** group now stands at 13. Some of the names in this group may well have Brythonic Celt roots:
Armstrong, McFarlane, Williams & Jenkins are four of interest. The first two may be of Kingdom of Strathclyde stock; the latter two Welsh. Several of the other surnames I haven't listed have high frequencies  of their surname found in Lancashire & Cheshire. Also, a couple of the others in the list have last known ancestors in places in the west of England, such as Bristol.
I appreciate that the current P312** group above may well disintegrate with further testing, but I think it is interesting to  see what common denominator these people have at this stage  - a potential west of the Pennines Brythonic Celt ancestry.
Cheers,
Bob

Can you post the kit numbers of these ** guys? Thanks.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Castlebob
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« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2012, 11:25:05 AM »

For list, see P312** List -Brythonic? thread,
Bob
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 11:25:18 AM by Castlebob » Logged

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Mark Jost
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« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2012, 11:30:50 AM »

Yep saw them and did the workup.

MJost
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Castlebob
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« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2012, 12:28:03 PM »

Thanks Mark.
Much appreciated
Cheers,
Bob
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mtDNA: U5b2b3
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